What is it about BioWare...

[Saint_Proverbius]

For all of the vitriol around here, Baldur's Gate wasn't a bad game. It had decent gameplay and managed to represent Dungeons and Dragons on the computer. If it didn't accurately recreate every aspect of a pen and paper game, well, that's an accusation that can be leveled against every computer game I have ever played.

I couldn't stand it. I played Fallout, and then Fallout 2. I was expecting something similar in terms of how the world was handled to Fallout and Fallout 2. I was expecting an open ended CRPG with mutliple endings based on your actions, attributes that mattered beyond combat, quests that were presented realistically within the setting, ethical choices based on and so forth.

PlaneScape: Torment actually delivered on a lot of what I wanted, I just couldn't stomach the combat in it.

No, my personal beef is with NWN. Whatever failings the BG series had, NWN had and more besides. Multiplayer DnD? I would rather play with friends sitting around a table, eating chips, and enjoy a real game of role-playing. ...And my real beef is with the "revolution" that was supposed to be NWN. Sure, it's ridiculous for them to make such claims. It's a downright sin that I bought them.

I went in to NWN hoping it'd live up to the hype.. Just some of the hype. Unfortunately, NWN didn't come close to living up to any of it's hype. The design of that campaign is hideously bad, forcing you to either be a thief or have a thief handy because of all the traps everywhere. For a single character game, they designed it like a party based CRPG rather than having multiple methods based on the class abilities.

I also was pretty miffed when I discovered that while there was a speech skill, it was meaningless beyond getting some extra story. Even then, it wasn't used much.

wandering around those beautiful hand painted maps

They were pre-rendered.

 

[Araanor]

Can't say I enjoy Bioware's art either. As far as the Infinity Engine goes, Black Isle does a better job with it.

 

[Sabotai]

The design of that campaign is hideously bad, forcing you to either be a thief or have a thief handy because of all the traps everywhere.

I don't think that's true. It's even worse. Bioware changed a lot of things so other characters (than a thief) could find and disarm traps as well. For example, BIO "adjusted" Find Trap spell for clerics; they made it so that it would not only find traps but would also disarm all traps in a 30 foot radius. I think the same thing applied for a mage.

To get rid of a trap on a chest, you could fire an arrow at it to set it off. Mages had it even easier. They just directed a fireball at the chest, destroying both trap and chest, leaving the l3WT lying unscathed on the floor.

 

[Eldar]

That's what I hated most of all, and thanks to you guys to point it out to me...

It was supposed to represent "real Dungeons and Dragons" to the player and yet it did away with party dynamics. I literally went through the game (yes, I bought it and so I finished it... twice) without using henchmen because the AI is so bad that I couldn't stand taking a henchman along with me. My thief (or sprite since I was playing a mage) would be stuck walking into a locked door because the AI told him to make the trapped chest behind it the highest priority. Couldn't stop him from doing it. Didn't matter, because, as Sabotai says, I used my extensive fireball lock picking abilities. I had several clerics in a bottle, and I could cure disease, heal, cure poison... you get the picture.

The wonder of Dungeons and Dragons isn't that you only get to play one character. It's that you play as part of a team to achieve a goal. It's a social game. For all of it's multi-player aspects, the game might as well be a big chat room.

 

[Section8]

Neverwinter Nights was also inspired by the early massively multiplayer games like Ultima Online. Our experience online was that we had the most fun when we were adventuring with a moderate-sized group of friends, with a Game Master creating an adventure for us in real time. This experience was one of the foundations of what we wanted to capture in Neverwinter Nights.

This is cute. In a single paragraph they basically state that they didn't do anything new or revolutionary, they just found something they liked in another old game and haphazardly threw that concept into a melting pot with the license they had been milking for the last few years, and didn't even bother to stir. It's fairly indicative of the way I see Bioware's approach to game design and production.

beyond the 250-hour Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn.

God. Even in an article intended for educational purposes they can't help throwing in some hype. And then we have

featuring 60 to 100 hours of gameplay

I really pity anyone who actually invested that much of their life toward NWNs horrible, horrible campaign. At best there is 10 minutes of gameplay, and 99'50" hours of breaking chests or killing monsters with a CR of less than 1.

4. Experienced team members focused on quality. Having numerous BioWare veterans on the Neverwinter Nights team was crucial to holding the project together and ensuring the development efforts were successful. We hired a number of new people during the course of the game, practically all of whom had no prior game development experience, but we were very fortunate that a number of people that had worked on the Baldur's Gate series also worked key roles on NWN. Their RPG development experience served as the cement that held everything together on the project and enabled them to circumvent many of the pitfalls typically encountered when developing a story-based role-playing game. In addition, their ability to mentor new hires was essential in building a strong team, both for Neverwinter Nights and for BioWare.

Here's another reinforcement of one of my points. Assuming the BG veterans mentoring the new crew only have the BG series under their belt, then their experience with that is what gets passed on. Since it was no doubt the BG series that fuelled Bioware's "Our shit don't stink" attitude, then I'd question how much worthwhile knowledge the vets have to pass on. An artist can't improve without criticism. The media doesn't want to do it, because they get rewarded if they praise, and judging from any written releases, Bioware seem very reluctant to be self-critical.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I don't think that's true. It's even worse. Bioware changed a lot of things so other characters (than a thief) could find and disarm traps as well. For example, BIO "adjusted" Find Trap spell for clerics; they made it so that it would not only find traps but would also disarm all traps in a 30 foot radius. I think the same thing applied for a mage.

Actually, it's a result of the problem I mentioned when you think about it. If they'd designed an optional way of getting through a den of evil in addition to the combat way, the super smart wizard wouldn't have a problem going either route. The wizard's high lore skill could come in to play there, by deciphering some warnings about what lies ahead, or even a way to disarm and bipass traps, for example.

Sorcerers and clerics could have charisma options to getting through the den of evil, like persauding a guard to help him get passed a troublesome spot, or give the charming character some keys.

However, since they did the straight party game design of cramming near linear areas with gobs of traps and monsters, since a party has to deal with everything in their face at all times, you had to fudge those spells.

That's what I hated most of all, and thanks to you guys to point it out to me...

It was supposed to represent "real Dungeons and Dragons" to the player and yet it did away with party dynamics. I literally went through the game (yes, I bought it and so I finished it... twice) without using henchmen because the AI is so bad that I couldn't stand taking a henchman along with me. My thief (or sprite since I was playing a mage) would be stuck walking into a locked door because the AI told him to make the trapped chest behind it the highest priority. Couldn't stop him from doing it. Didn't matter, because, as Sabotai says, I used my extensive fireball lock picking abilities. I had several clerics in a bottle, and I could cure disease, heal, cure poison... you get the picture.

I don't think D&D requires a party, it's just that party games is all that's been done well with the license. I think you could easily have a lone hero CRPG with D&D and have it be well done so long as you have the design of the game tailored for lone characters rather than design it for parties and make the not-so-optional henchman.

All they'd really have to do is allow the options for the single character to do things in the way that character does things best, based on the class of the character or the attributes of the character or even skills.

The wonder of Dungeons and Dragons isn't that you only get to play one character. It's that you play as part of a team to achieve a goal. It's a social game. For all of it's multi-player aspects, the game might as well be a big chat room.

I think the main problem is that D&D has a lot of noncombat role playing opportunities, but you'll never see those in a BioWare game. Expand the noncombat role playing opportunities and you'll have no problem making a good single character D&D CRPG.

 

[Spazmo]

Noncombat encounters in D&D require DM\designer commitment. The rules themselves only provide a couple skills; it's the DM who has to create situations in which to use them.

Saint, D&D actually does require a party. Multiclassing and twinktastic munchkins aside, the classes are designed to complement each other. Fighters take the damage and break things, wizards do all the arcane shit and blow up stuff, clerics keep everyone alive and blow some stuff up while getting a few whacks with the mace in here and there, rogues hide and disarm traps and bards rock out and fast talk their way out of things. The classes aren't meant to succeed alone. It's possible to design adventures for a lone character of a given class, but the party mechanic is crucial to the game.

There's nothing wrong with solo CRPGs; they often work better as the player can only really role-play one character at a time. But D&D rules aren't meant for single PC adventures.

 

[Rosh]

Not entirely true. Back in late 80's and early 90's, there was a bit of a boom in solo 3rd-party created D&D campaigns. Some of the better ones really tended to allow any class to play, but allowed different paths for each. Intended or not, they did work out pretty well.

It really depends on the skill of the creator(s).

Given that, BioWhore has NO HOPE in being able to do that, at all.

 

[Eldar]

Okay, I'll concede that it is possible, and even gratifying, to play a solo adventure in Dungeons and Dragons. I don't concede that it is optimal. It was designed primarily as a social experience.

However, and this is where we can find agreement in this thread so far, the dedication it takes to produce a solo game is sorely missing in Bioware's efforts. The henchmen are probably the single biggest problem with NWN. They are worse than the stupid ramps everywhere, the poor standing next to gold filled barrels, the vacuous voiceover for Aribeth, or even the plot. NWN assumes that the computer can play a good henchmen using the Dungeons and Dragons ruleset. Perhaps it can, but Bioware was unable to make it do so.

NWN was designed to make the player feel closer to his character. Fair enough. It was, essentially, meant to simulate a solo character experience in the included campaign and a character in a party in multi-player. In my mind, it failed both.

I'll admit that I think it's too much to ask that the computer handle the NPC as I would as a DM. When my characters ask a thief to help with things, the thief will act in his own interests. However, it would be exceptional to find an NPC who will not follow specific and complex directions when those directions serve his own interests. He won't refuse to work with the party (or player) without good reason. After all, the NPC is working with the party for some purpose or another. The NPC is as complex or simple as the DM decides to make him. NWN, on the other hand, failed to enhance the experience with the NPCs.*

In multi-player, a true party is a burden. It's not worth it to make sure folks stay in the same place or work as a team. In fact, multi-player was supposed to be as close to table top gaming as is possible on the computer today. If that's as close as we can get, we're too far away.

Simply put, it failed as a solo adventure and as a multi-player adventure. More power to the folks who liked the game in either single or multi-player. I have nothing against them. I'm just glad there are other companies who produce games that I'll enjoy more. I promised myself, when I realized how bad NWN is, that I would not let one game decide my attitude towards any developer. Let's hope KotOR is good. Once again, I can forgive the "magic" lightsabres and force imbued artifacts if the gameplay is there.

*Oddly enough, I didn't mind the computer controlled NPCs in Fallout nearly as much. I was irritated every now and then, but it didn't detract from my experience. I honestly don't know why. Maybe I'm just biased. However, I can say that I was quite excited to buy NWN and my assessment of the NPCs came after I bought the game. I can't put my finger on it, but the NPCs in Fallout were different.

 

[Sabotai]

However, and this is where we can find agreement in this thread so far, the dedication it takes to produce a solo game is sorely missing in Bioware's efforts.

Couldn't agree more. They adjusted ("wrecked havoc on" is more like it) the D&D system in their inability to provide multiple solutions for different classes.

The henchmen are probably the single biggest problem with NWN. NWN assumes that the computer can play a good henchmen using the Dungeons and Dragons ruleset. Perhaps it can, but Bioware was unable to make it do so.

Although I've got some sympathy for the Palestinians, after two minutes of play I called Tomi "Yasser" due to his ability to commit suicide.

 

[Jarinor]

Just to toss in my two cents on why I don't like Bioware...

I played NWN and BG. Maybe I should amend that to "tried to play" however...

BG was just ridiculous. When I play a CRPG, I expect to see some sort of character advancement. I don't expect to still be the same pathetic weenie I was at the beginning of the game asked to find a lost book, when I'm now being asked to kill an endless amount of gnolls for practically no experience. It was really aggravating playing for several hours and not seeing one iota of improvement from any character I was controlling.

NWN just plain sucked. Apart from an unnecessarily convoluted character creation process, the game wasn't up to scratch. The camera sucked, the gameplay sucked, and the dialogue was shallow - I could insult people all day long without them batting an eyelid.

Both game suffered from crap design and a complete lack of the ingredient F-U-N.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Saint, D&D actually does require a party. Multiclassing and twinktastic munchkins aside, the classes are designed to complement each other. Fighters take the damage and break things, wizards do all the arcane shit and blow up stuff, clerics keep everyone alive and blow some stuff up while getting a few whacks with the mace in here and there, rogues hide and disarm traps and bards rock out and fast talk their way out of things. The classes aren't meant to succeed alone. It's possible to design adventures for a lone character of a given class, but the party mechanic is crucial to the game.

This is why you provide options for those classes. They don't have to compliment one another. You can design a game that makes use of the advantages and disadvantages of the classes, attributes, and skills.

A fighter is a tank, no doubt about it. So, make a tank option in a scenario where he can combat and bloodlust his way through it. That's the easiest route. In fact, other classes could follow this route as well, like the cleric or even a decent sorcerer, right?

However, since the cleric and sorcerer will most likely also have charisma being high, have a diplomatic approach available. Coercing a guard to give you the key to the keep, perhaps. Enlisting the help of an NPC or two to sneak you in, or distract the guards. A bard would probably also be able to do this.

Have a back way that's lcked tight, perhaps has traps and other things for the rogue characters to deal with on their own terms.

There's nothing wrong with solo CRPGs; they often work better as the player can only really role-play one character at a time. But D&D rules aren't meant for single PC adventures.

Try thinking outside the box.

 

[Nightblade]

I don't play any non-Infinity engine games

I agree that the pathfinding in the IE games is annoying, and Bio's four year long NWN hype was ridiculous, to say the least. But what are you look for in a crpg? Good semi-realistic graphics (esp. the avatars and mobiles), a good non-linear story-line, lots of quests, good music, ambient sound, avatar sounds, all in all a good rpg-atmosphere (?) Noone else delivers like Bio/BIS. I think I can say I've never seen any crpgs that produce the same feeling and atmosphere as the IE games, mostly BG1 and 2.

I just looked at some of the ToEE screenshots, after I read about some company called Troika over at the BIS boards :wink: The game, ToEE looked just like the IE games, with slightly more lame/cartoonish avatar pictures and avatars. I hate cartoon-like crpgs. I took one look at the screenshots, and knew there and then that I'd never play that game. That's all I need. One look. I've seen so many crappy crpgs, and I'm not gonna sit down with yet another one. I'm also willing to bet my rent-money, that the male characters in ToEE will have overly-heroic macho voices, with no originality whatsoever, and the female voices will probably be cheesy girly-animee-crappy princess voices.

Why doesn't Troika just buy the Infinity Engine from poor dying BIS, and let the old BIS dudes create a new Jeff/BG/Dalelands/IE(->Mystary) game for us, and we'll all be happy. :D

Go BIS !

[N]

 

[Elwro]

Re: I don't play any non-Infinity engine games

I . But what are you look for in a crpg? Good semi-realistic graphics (esp. the avatars and mobiles), a good non-linear story-line, lots of quests, good music, ambient sound, avatar sounds, all in all a good rpg-atmosphere (?)

I also like when there are situations in which you have to think or make some choice. This almost never happens in any IE games, except from PS:T.

I think I can say I've never seen any crpgs that produce the same feeling and atmosphere as the IE games, mostly BG1 and 2.

You mean this feeling that you're being lead by an invisible hand which will help you in any circumstances? That no matter what you do, everything will come to a good end and the Forces of Law will win? And if you forget where to go, *puff* Elminster will appear and show you the way?

. I'm also willing to bet my rent-money, that the male characters in ToEE will have overly-heroic macho voices, with no originality whatsoever, and the female voices will probably be cheesy girly-animee-crappy princess voices.

You mean like those in IWD/IWD2?

Go BIS !

Well, I agree. I'm waiting for Lionheart myself. But have you seen the trailer of the game? I wonder if you would say "Judging from the video, it will be one of those lame RPGs I won't ever play".

 

[GreenNight]

Re: I don't play any non-Infinity engine games

Why doesn't Troika just buy the Infinity Engine from poor dying BIS, and let the old BIS dudes create a new Jeff/BG/Dalelands/IE(->Mystary) game for us, and we'll all be happy. :D

I give you a 7 at trolling. Would have been more, but bashing parts of a game that no one knows how have been done is.. well, trollish

Be happy!

 

[Sabotai]

Re: I don't play any non-Infinity engine games

*turns on the friendly-to-potential-Tim-customer mode*

But what are you look for in a crpg? Good semi-realistic graphics (esp. the avatars and mobiles), a good non-linear story-line, lots of quests, good music, ambient sound, avatar sounds, all in all a good rpg-atmosphere (?) Noone else delivers like Bio/BIS. I think I can say I've never seen any crpgs that produce the same feeling and atmosphere as the IE games, mostly BG1 and 2.

So you want atmosphere, and you think BG1 and BG2 had this.

The game, ToEE looked just like the IE games, with slightly more lame/cartoonish avatar pictures and avatars.

So apart from the avatar pictures and avatars, ToEE is exactly the game for you since it resembles IE games right?

I hate cartoon-like crpgs. I took one look at the screenshots, and knew there and then that I'd never play that game. That's all I need. One look. I've seen so many crappy crpgs, and I'm not gonna sit down with yet another one

I thought you wanted atmosphere. Can you honestly say that you can judge a game's atmosphere buy looking at a screenshot? I can't and I've been playing games for about 22 years now. So, what are the crappy RPGs you've played then?

I'm also willing to bet my rent-money, that the male characters in ToEE will have overly-heroic macho voices, with no originality whatsoever, and the female voices will probably be cheesy girly-animee-crappy princess voices.

I'll take that bet. Since you liked BG1 and BG2 and Jefferson is indefinately delayed, your only chance to play a RPG slightly similar to BG1&2, but which I think will be more original than either of them, will be ToEE.

*mode off*

 

[Vault Dweller]

Re: I don't play any non-Infinity engine games

I took one look at the screenshots, and knew there and then that I'd never play that game. That's all I need. One look.

Are you proud of the fact that you are stupid?

I've seen so many crappy crpgs

Somehow I don't doubt that

 

[Eldar]

Okay, here's an honest question... what games has Troika done? By that, I mean what games has Troika done as Troika and how many games have Troika employees done working for other companies?

Here's my take, I liked Arcanum. A lot. It was flawed in many respects, but the atmosphere and backstory were quite nice. Still, that was one game and it had mixed reviews and sales. The mixed reviews were justified. Fallout was a while back.

The hyperbole surrounding Troika used to irritate me until I finally just decided to shrug and accept it. Developers and publishers hype games. It helps sell titles. The hype surrounding the two current titles isn't anything like the hype that we get from Bioware where "revolution" was somewhere on every page.

Anyhow, while I'm sometimes irritated by the hype their games receive, I've enjoyed Arcanum enough to seek more titles and I'm quite intrigued by ToEE and *gasp* V:Bloodlines. Sure, Bloodlines looks like more of an FPS than a CRPG, but the graphics look good and I find the setting peculiar.

Finally, the voiceover work for IWD and IWD2 was great. Some of the best I've heard. The voiceover work for all the IE games were good.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Okay, here's an honest question... what games has Troika done?

Fallout and Arcanum. I believe that Fallout requires no introduction, as for Arcanum, yes, it had flaws, but it is still a damn fine game despite the flaws which is more then could be said about way too many games these days. The storyline was great, the dialogues were awesome, the atmosphere and the setting were excellent, but most of all it was original which again is more than could be said about many other games.

So yes, only 2 games, but I'd rather have 2 good ones, then 10 shitty ones. Quality vs quantity is the way to go on the long run. Look at Blizzard.

As for Troika's hype vs BioWare's hype, one was created by people to show their support for the company, another was created by the company and media for shameless self-promotion and to fool people. It's not the same.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Re: I don't play any non-Infinity engine games

I agree that the pathfinding in the IE games is annoying, and Bio's four year long NWN hype was ridiculous, to say the least. But what are you look for in a crpg? Good semi-realistic graphics (esp. the avatars and mobiles), a good non-linear story-line, lots of quests, good music, ambient sound, avatar sounds, all in all a good rpg-atmosphere (?) Noone else delivers like Bio/BIS. I think I can say I've never seen any crpgs that produce the same feeling and atmosphere as the IE games, mostly BG1 and 2.

BG and BG2 were linear story-line games. The chapters alone should make that one clear, but if not.. Ignore the sidequests. Play through those games a few times and tell me you didn't do the exact same thing each time as far as the plot went. Being able to do sidequests doesn't make the story any less linear.

What's a "mobile"? You mean a sprite? The character sprites in BG looked like they were done in MS Paint, and were attrocious. A lot of the monsters looked good, though, but the player sprites, yuck. Also, the gib effect for massive damage deaths looked more like you turned something in to a bunch of bouncing fruit than a mammalian body exploding.

Oh yeah, and the only IE game that's even come close to having really good atmosphere was PlaneScape: Torment.

I've seen so many crappy crpgs, and I'm not gonna sit down with yet another one.

Like BG and BG2..

that the male characters in ToEE will have overly-heroic macho voices, with no originality whatsoever, and the female voices will probably be cheesy girly-animee-crappy princess voices.

You just summed up the voice acting in BG, BG2, and IWD2. Oh yeah, and NWN.

Why doesn't Troika just buy the Infinity Engine from poor dying BIS, and let the old BIS dudes create a new Jeff/BG/Dalelands/IE(->Mystary) game for us, and we'll all be happy. :D

Because everyone except the mindless IE fan boys knows the engine sucks. BIS doesn't own the engine, they've been licensing it because they couldn't afford to take the time to make their own engine until recently.

 

[Eldar]

The voiceover talent, which fell under the perview of BIS, was quite well done for all the IE games. Anyhow, who cares about the engine, the games were fun. That's the point. Yeah, I'm hoping that ToEE does away with some of the more irritating aspects of the IE, especially the pathfinding, but attacking the voice over work? Nuts.

 

[Spazmo]

ToEE won't have to do away with anything since it's not Infinity Engine. It's a heavily modified Arcanum engine game.

 

[Eldar]

Yeah, that wasn't very clear. What I mean is I hope ToEE doesn't have the same problems the IE engine did. I didn't know they were using the Arcanum engine.

 

[Araanor]

The Infinity Engine was, and is, ass. Expect something better from Troika.

 

[Monte Carlo]

The Infinity Engine was, and is, ass. Expect something better from Troika.

The proof of the pudding is, as they say, in the eating.

Troika have yet to impress me, personally, so I look forward to ToEE with interest. Some of the Troika adulation I see is pretty hilarious, people setting themselves up for disappointment. If any other developer other than Troika had as part of their up-and-coming portfolio an IWD style, vanilla D&D H&S and a freakin' FPS full of Britney lookalike teen vamps then I daresay they'd be subjected to some pretty interesting flamage.

Cheers
MC