What is it about BioWare...

[Zetor]

I'm with MC and Eldar here... I'll wait until a few reviews come in before I consider buying ToEE, Bloodlines (or any other game, whether they're made by Troika or not). Sure, most of the Troika team worked on Fallout, but that doesn't mean anything they turn out will be automatically pure gold. ('sides, it wasn't only the Troika folks who worked on FO and didn't I read something about a FO team member leaving Troika for BIS?) Arcanum is still a rather sore point with me -- for such an intricate setting, I expected more than insanely long hack'n'slash dungeons along with an IMHO horrible character / combat system.

BUT, I'm still willing to cut them more slack than Bioware -- Arcanum, with all its flaws, wasn't a bad game. NWN was.

just my 2 HUF,

-- Z.

Edit: Saint, I think by 'mobile' he was referring to the monsters (mobile or mob is MUD lingo for monsters / respawning AI-controlled NPCs) which were pretty good in BG, I have to admit.

 

[Rosh]

. If any other developer other than Troika had as part of their up-and-coming portfolio an IWD style, vanilla D&D H&S and a freakin' FPS full of Britney lookalike teen vamps then I daresay they'd be subjected to some pretty interesting flamage.

On the contrary, I'd call you pretty damn clueless just the same.

Wait, I just have...

 

[Constipated Craprunner]

When you first herd about Kubrick's The Shining, you did not just write it off as another horror movie did you?
Now maybe- just maybe- I could understand your position if you did not like Arcanum. I, on the other hand, loved it.

 

[Jarinor]

Re: I don't play any non-Infinity engine games

I agree that the pathfinding in the IE games is annoying, and Bio's four year long NWN hype was ridiculous, to say the least. But what are you look for in a crpg? Good semi-realistic graphics (esp. the avatars and mobiles), a good non-linear story-line, lots of quests, good music, ambient sound, avatar sounds, all in all a good rpg-atmosphere (?) Noone else delivers like Bio/BIS. I think I can say I've never seen any crpgs that produce the same feeling and atmosphere as the IE games, mostly BG1 and 2.

I'm wondering, does your list of games that don't do this include Fallout, Arcanum and the Wizardry series? To say BG has more atmosphere and feeling than Fallout is ludicrous...yeah! Another standard fantasy RPG! What will they do this time?

I just looked at some of the ToEE screenshots, after I read about some company called Troika over at the BIS boards :wink: The game, ToEE looked just like the IE games, with slightly more lame/cartoonish avatar pictures and avatars. I hate cartoon-like crpgs.

So, did you actually play any IE based game? Baldur's Gate in particular has the most cartoony portraits I've ever seen.

I took one look at the screenshots, and knew there and then that I'd never play that game. That's all I need. One look. I've seen so many crappy crpgs, and I'm not gonna sit down with yet another one. I'm also willing to bet my rent-money, that the male characters in ToEE will have overly-heroic macho voices, with no originality whatsoever, and the female voices will probably be cheesy girly-animee-crappy princess voices.

I think I heard a saying once...something like don't judge a book by it's cover.

Why doesn't Troika just buy the Infinity Engine from poor dying BIS, and let the old BIS dudes create a new Jeff/BG/Dalelands/IE(->Mystary) game for us, and we'll all be happy. :D

Because it's a hackneyed piece of shit, that's why. It's real time, and it's been so heavily modified that the original code is only in the mind of the original coders. Oh, and even in 3D it looks just as shit as ever. The only saving grace for that engine is Planescape: Torment.

 

[Araanor]

The proof of the pudding is, as they say, in the eating.

I enjoyed Arcanum more than BG. That asides, I was talking only of the engine.

Infinity Engine == ass
Arcanum Engine == decent

AE > IE

Further, I expect Troika to learn from their mistakes. Bioware, however... nwn is the bestest game they made, don't you know?

 

[Rosh]

I enjoyed Arcanum more than BG. That asides, I was talking only of the engine.

Infinity Engine == ass
Arcanum Engine == decent

AE > IE

It could also be pointed out that ToEE is TB only. Troika, having seen that the RT element and the crossover elements caused too many balance problems, did away with them. They also have a good amount of experience with working in TB.

It would also be pointed out that the Inbred Engine was crap because it was bastardizing D&D rules and the way it was meant to be played in order to satisfy the crackheads. At least in ToEE, position and sequence will mean something.

 

[Eldar]

It is through conflict that we grow. I'm glad someone got us over our lovefest in attacking Bioware and moved us into an area of real discussion.

I have no problem people being Troika fans. They haven't shown me that they deserve my unwavering dedication and loyalty, but I'm just one guy. Who am I to besmirch the good name of Troika?

Still, I'm sure Troika wants nothing more than to put its critics to rest by producing a CRPG that earns them the respect they already enjoy. Even they saw the flaws in Arcanum, at least I gather as much from the interviews I've read. I've also gathered that they are able to use their critical eye to improve future games. All is not woe.

If ToEE is only as good as Arcanum, I'll still enjoy it quite a bit. Like I said, I just don't understand why Troika has such a vocal fanbase from only one game: Fallout. Because, if the truth were known, Troika has had such a fanbase since long before Arcanum.

So, I'll keep looking forward to the upcoming Troika titles and hoping that these titles live up to my expectations. Then I can be a fan even if I'm not quite so vocal as the others.

...And the IE games were all fun and I played them all several times.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

ToEE won't have to do away with anything since it's not Infinity Engine. It's a heavily modified Arcanum engine game.

Not true. While some of the code from Arcanum is being used, like the dialogue engine, the majority of the engine used for ToEE is brand new.

If any other developer other than Troika had as part of their up-and-coming portfolio an IWD style, vanilla D&D H&S and a freakin' FPS full of Britney lookalike teen vamps then I daresay they'd be subjected to some pretty interesting flamage.

Troika's never made a straight forward dungeon crawler, and given the ideas proposed by ToEE like the varied starting locations based on party alignment, I doubt this one is either.

As for the setting of Bloodlines, criticising Troika for following White Wolf's design for the thing is rather odd. It'd be like criticising Raven for Elite Forces because the Vulcans look like elves. I'm not a huge fan of White Wolf's Vampire setting, either, but when you're making a game based on someone else's IP, that's how you do it.

Arcanum is still a rather sore point with me -- for such an intricate setting, I expected more than insanely long hack'n'slash dungeons along with an IMHO horrible character / combat system.

Then again, if they'd made a system similar to SPECIAL for Arcanum, which I think we'd all have liked, Interplay would have sued them... again. The seemy underbelly of the gaming industry is filled with silly little legal suits.

t could also be pointed out that ToEE is TB only. Troika, having seen that the RT element and the crossover elements caused too many balance problems, did away with them. They also have a good amount of experience with working in TB.

I agree. There are numerous problems with translating a turn based system to real time ranging from animations for events that work flawlessly in turn based to balance issues to interface problems to having to simply toss out rules.

Look at it like this, IWD2 was a dungeon hack. Dungeon hacks are primarily tactical games, only set in fantasy instead of WW2 or some other, more modern setting. However, because of the problems with real time combat like the infinity engine uses, BIS had to drop one of the most tactical rules of 3E - Attacks of Opportunity. It's rather sad when you have to drop one of the big tactical rules of the rule set just because of the real time system.

 

[Monte Carlo]

On the contrary, I'd call you pretty damn clueless just the same.

Wait, I just have...

Why, because I don't agree with you? Blind fanboy-ism is hliariously ugly from whatever quarter it comes from.

And quit with the ad hominem.

Cheers
MC

 

[Monte Carlo]

Troika's never made a straight forward dungeon crawler, and given the ideas proposed by ToEE like the varied starting locations based on party alignment, I doubt this one is either.

If it looks like a H&S dungeon crawl and smells like a H&S dungeon crawl then I'd suggest that it is a H&S dungeon crawl.

Happily, I love H&S dungeon crawls. I think we'd all move on a lot happier if we accepted that people cut Troika slack that nobody else would get.

As for the setting of Bloodlines, criticising Troika for following White Wolf's design for the thing is rather odd. It'd be like criticising Raven for Elite Forces because the Vulcans look like elves. I'm not a huge fan of White Wolf's Vampire setting, either, but when you're making a game based on someone else's IP, that's how you do it.

Deus Ex with fangs. A FPS is a FPS. This ain't gonna be Buffy meets Morrowind, despite the exhortations of the Troika faithful.

Arcanum is still a rather sore point with me -- for such an intricate setting, I expected more than insanely long hack'n'slash dungeons along with an IMHO horrible character / combat system.

Look at it like this, IWD2 was a dungeon hack. Dungeon hacks are primarily tactical games, only set in fantasy instead of WW2 or some other, more modern setting. However, because of the problems with real time combat like the infinity engine uses, BIS had to drop one of the most tactical rules of 3E - Attacks of Opportunity. It's rather sad when you have to drop one of the big tactical rules of the rule set just because of the real time system.

I think somebody should give credit where credit is due for the amazing McGuyvering of an old engine that was done with IWD2. I agree with the AoO issue, but nonetheless the IWD2 engine was pretty good given the limitations the developers were working under.

Cheers
MC

 

[Araanor]

Have you even read about the games?

 

[Monte Carlo]

Have you even read about the games?

Yes, why?

Or do you mean, "did you read about the games through the eyes of an uncritical Troika fanboy?"

In which case, no.

Games developers use hyperbole when describing their games that would make boxing promoters blush. They all do it. Why wouldn't Troika?

After all, we hear a lot (a helluva lot) about "Troika Style" this and "Troika Style" that. Based on the one lacklustre game they made? Pfeh.

Let's wait and see.

Cheers
MC

 

[Eldar]

I've read about the games. Even better, I've read about the games from quite biased sources. I don't agree with MC that ToEE looks like it will be nothing more than a Hack and Slash dungeon adventure. I've heard a lot of intriguing elements that Troika has introduced to create a better role-playing experience.

However, ToEE is in production. It is not produced. ...And I'm buying Vampire: Bloodlines because it looks like it will be a fine FPS. If it provides a great role-playing experience, even better. It is not yet produced either.

 

[Rosh]

Games developers use hyperbole when describing their games that would make boxing promoters blush. They all do it. Why wouldn't Troika?

And the clueless use hyperbole just the same. I think I mentioned this before. I think it might have something to do with calling something what it isn't and using very poor generalizations about it.

Which would be completely different since one is more akin to the original ruleset and the other is based upon a crappy engine, but you would have displayed that knowledge than made such a glaring piece of tripe worth ridicule.

You don't want ad hominem, don't give idiocy. Simple as that, understand? So next time, don't try to blur a poor implementation of D&D base mechanics with something that is trying to adhere more to the mechanics intended, and which will give it more of a P&P feel instead of a crack-addict munchkinfest that usually passes as an Inbred Engine game.

an IWD style, vanilla D&D H&S

For a reminder. Troika has already pointed out a number of things that makes it a H&S, makes it more faithful to D&D, but makes it very different from IWD (especially in style). Hell, a few screenshots could have given that much away.

So therefore you pretty much have either lied about reading about the game details planned and implemented already, or you're resorting to the exact same hyperbole that you're accusing.

IRONY!

EDIT: Then we could also point out the crux of the problem for Arcanum. I believe it was the publisher that insisted that it had a RT combat option. At that point, and when implemented beside TB, it throws everything to hell because it's quite impossible to put the two beside each other in the same balance system, especially when stats and items are figured.

 

[Eldar]

Let's boil this down, shall we. MC's main point, if he'll forgive me for speaking for him, is that Troika only has one game, Arcanum. I disagree. I think most hardcore Troika fans associate them with Fallout.

At any rate, they have Fallout and Arcanum. Based on those two games, it's quite a bit to assume that they're as great as some people claim. They might be great. Some of us want them to be great. ...And yet they have not demonstrated their enduring greatness yet.

So, what's the real argument with that? ToEE looks good. Monte has stated his enthusiasm for the ToEE project many times, as have I. It's not that anyone wants Troika to produce a bad game. On the other hand, it makes sense to be prudent when it comes to future games. I might be less of a Troika fan for wanting to see them produce the game for which they have already received credit, but I'm no less of a discerning CRPG fan for enjoying the IE games. It's ridiculous when it comes to fighting between folks who are looking forward to the same project.

I understand that the Troika designers occassionally visit this board. I wish them the best of luck. Hell, good luck for them is a great game for me, and I'm selfish.

If ToEE is no better than IWD2 with improved graphics and engine, it will have done very well. I certainly hope that the development cycle was better under Troika than it was under Interplay. We can come up with reasons why NWN fell far short of expectations, sure. ...But I think NWN is far more cut and dried in its failings than the BG series, the IWD series, and PS:T.

 

[Elwro]

...But I think NWN is far more cut and dried in its failings than the BG series, the IWD series, and PS:T.

I sincerely don't understand what you mean here. Maybe because I'm not a native English-speaker? Could you explain your statement to me? If I understand you correctly, you seem to imply that there is an aspect in which NWN is better than PS:T. [I only play single player games and] I haven't noticed any such aspects. Even the graphics were better in PS:T on my machine. NWN made my Athlon 1400 behave like an overfed snail and the graphics were just ugly on moderate settings. (I don't care that I don't have a high-end machine - Morrowind is pretty and runs smoothly on it, so it's just that Bioware screwed up the code).

 

[Eldar]

...But I think NWN is far more cut and dried in its failings than the BG series, the IWD series, and PS:T.

I sincerely don't understand what you mean here. Maybe because I'm not a native English-speaker? Could you explain your statement to me? If I understand you correctly, you seem to imply that there is an aspect in which NWN is better than PS:T. [I only play single player games and] I haven't noticed any such aspects. Even the graphics were better in PS:T on my machine. NWN made my Athlon 1400 behave like an overfed snail and the graphics were just ugly on moderate settings. (I don't care that I don't have a high-end machine - Morrowind is pretty and runs smoothly on it, so it's just that Bioware screwed up the code).

I'm sorry. The failing is my own.

NWN has failing that are quite obvious and extensive. The IE games were all better than the mess that was NWN.

PS:T is my favorite CRPG, hands down. I had high hopes that Jefferson would take the best elements of PS:T and the best elements of Fallout to make a great game.

No, NWN doesn't stack up very well against most of the CRPGs I've played.

 

[udarnik]

Blind fanboy-ism is hliariously ugly from whatever quarter it comes from.

You can tell a lot about a game studio by the way they communicate to their fans. Troika, BIS, and Bethesda have had intelligent, thoughtful developers communicating what their games were about and what they thought about them. And they have been honest. BIS expressed (muted) disappointment about having to make IWD2, for example, but were very open about what they had in mind for the game, and sure enough the game resembled what they said it would. In short, there is no need to go hunting for skepticism about Troika's efforts. If we didn't like what we saw, we'd say so (and in many cases already have), and if they had something disappointing to say (not being able to add sub-races, for example) they've said it.

Bioware is really the only game studio that has won my instant skepticism, and that is mainly because "thoughtful developers" were replaced by soulless PR machines (since I liked the BG games). That, and because one really really bad game is all it takes to destroy a reputation.

 

[Spazmo]

On the topic of IE, a fair part of the suckiness can be attributed to the suckiness of AD&D 2nd Ed. rules themselves; which were pretty bad before BioWare got anywhere near them.

On the topic of ToEE, I think us fanboys (all things considered, the terms is sadly accurate) are justified in drooling over ToEE. What was Arcanum's greatest quality? The brilliantly realized setting, dialog and character development. It's flaws? Combat and balance. Well, since ToEE uses the D&D 3E rules, Combat and balance is already done (and quite well at that) for Troika; the only thing left for them is implementation, and they're trying to be as true to the real thing as possible. So when you combine an arguably assured quality rule system with almost certainly brilliantly done dialog, character development and atmosphere, you get a pretty fucking good CRPG.

 

[triCritical]

On the topic of IE, a fair part of the suckiness can be attributed to the suckiness of AD&D 2nd Ed. rules themselves; which were pretty bad before BioWare got anywhere near them.

On the topic of ToEE, I think us fanboys (all things considered, the terms is sadly accurate) are justified in drooling over ToEE. What was Arcanum's greatest quality? The brilliantly realized setting, dialog and character development. It's flaws? Combat and balance. Well, since ToEE uses the D&D 3E rules, Combat and balance is already done (and quite well at that) for Troika; the only thing left for them is implementation, and they're trying to be as true to the real thing as possible. So when you combine an arguably assured quality rule system with almost certainly brilliantly done dialog, character development and atmosphere, you get a pretty fucking good CRPG.

Not to mention that Arcanum tried to do waaaaay too much. It had MP, it had modding and that helped make the graphics and combat sucky. It also had an enourmous world, maybe a little too big. Perhaps if they could have split Arcanum into two games, leaving the first with a cliffhanger, they could have made a more tight game, and ironed out a lot of the problems with a sequal.

As for the fanboys. There is always a double standard, Whether you are on the Morrowind boards, BIS boards, Bioware boards, Troika boards or DS boards, there will always be people that shoot down other peoples products when their company is guilty of the same thing. I do personally think that Bioware is the biggest hype monkey I have ever seen, however.

 

[triCritical]

Let's boil this down, shall we. MC's main point, if he'll forgive me for speaking for him, is that Troika only has one game, Arcanum. I disagree. I think most hardcore Troika fans associate them with Fallout.

At any rate, they have Fallout and Arcanum. Based on those two games, it's quite a bit to assume that they're as great as some people claim. They might be great. Some of us want them to be great. ...And yet they have not demonstrated their enduring greatness yet.

Well its like Sid Meier's and Firaxis. When he first made Firaxis, you would say that Firaxis is a bunch of newcomers, they have no experience or expertise. Well that is bullcrap, just because you start a new company does not mean you are all of a sudden a rookie. Collectively speaking the people at Troika have a lot more experience making games then the people working at BIS on FO3. But no one for one second will say yeah but those people have made 5 game now. Well most of the people left shortly after the second and then the third and now the fourth.

I do agree that Leon and Tim have been a built guilty of saying the kind of thing you would expect from Troika. But we all know ithat they are talking about what they pioneered with Fallout and continued with Arcanum and are currently doing in ToEE and Vt Bloodlines.

 

[Jarinor]

Based on the one lacklustre game they made? Pfeh.

Just what made the entire game lacklustre? I personally found it great fun, and my only real criticism of the game was that it was too hard to be evil, in that there was a severe lack of 'evil' quests.

Let's wait and see.

That's the smartest thing you've said yet. Too bad it has to be taken out of context for it to be that way.

 

[triCritical]

Just what made the entire game lacklustre? I personally found it great fun, and my only real criticism of the game was that it was too hard to be evil, in that there was a severe lack of 'evil' quests.

I don't know why he would say this other then to fuel anger. I think Arcanum, for a game that was very much not hyped, was recieved well by critics and gamers alike. It had problems, but the majority of them stem from complexities that Fallout did not have.

For one thing Arcanum used a much more ambitious character system, and had intentional unbalancing in it. The instruction manual tells you playing a half oger melee characters will be easier.

It had MP which necessitates RT, kind of. The games combat AI had a lot to be desired and was balanced for RT. Had they not had MP and one combat mode been selected they could have got Sean, who I believed did the MP stuff, to work on AI full/part time, while they game was balanced for TB.

And finally the graphics. Part of the problem was the same that plagued NWN, modding. The other was the avatar. I thought the avatars were a bit ugly. But thankfully we can already tell that the graphics in ToEE are a drastic improvement, including the character avatars.

But sinced we knocked Arcanum, its only fair to see why it was the source of much crtical acclaim. For one it had the most advanced use of NPC's I have ever seen in a game. The way NPC's reacted to you was entirely dependent on the character you were. For instance, an evil half orc technologist would be treated much different then an evil mage, who would be treated much different then a beautiful elven lass. The Game had newspapers that kept up on current events and a very coherent world that was both original and very well developed including a very interesting history.

Along these lines, was the characters themselves. As bad as combat was it was always intersesting because my characters role in it was always different. I was either setting traps, casting spells, avoiding, loaing a flintlock pistol, or allowing the joinable NPC's to fight for me. On that same note the non-linearity and open-endedness made all the characters have very different experiences. For a lot of the quest it seemed that there was about 3 to 4 ways of completing them, even the main quests!

Finally it implemented the first completey continuous world. The fact that the game was so completely nonlinear and HUGE makes it an amazing feat in itself.

The good news is that ToEE won't jave MP, modding and be nearly as large. So IMO this can only help things.

 

[Ibbz]

NWN made my Athlon 1400 behave like an overfed snail and the graphics were just ugly on moderate settings. (I don't care that I don't have a high-end machine - Morrowind is pretty and runs smoothly on it, so it's just that Bioware screwed up the code).

Your machine must suck. It runs at 20fps + most of the time for me on my Cel 488. I've also seen it run on an Athlon 1 ghz with GF2MX with no frame rate problems what so ever.

 

[huh]

... snipped for brevity ...
If any other developer other than Troika had as part of their up-and-coming portfolio an IWD style, vanilla D&D H&S and a freakin' FPS full of Britney lookalike teen vamps then I daresay they'd be subjected to some pretty interesting flamage.
...

and all other developers do... that's the point... Troika Games is not in the 'other' developers category yet, however. Arcanum had flaws, yet not having a well-developed gameworld or intriguing NPC interaction was not one of them.

therefore, as you can plainly see, the chances of those games not sucking as CRPGs are higher. it's all a matter of degree, really. there isn't much competition either.

there you have it, my reasons... Bio/Bis/Iply, on the other hand, have nothing to even interst me with, let alone make me anticipate, I do wish that wasn't the case. maybe crpgs are up for another upswing in a few years, or maybe it's time to write video games off as enterntainment *shrug*