What is it about BioWare...

[Saint_Proverbius]

Happily, I love H&S dungeon crawls. I think we'd all move on a lot happier if we accepted that people cut Troika slack that nobody else would get.

I'd say BioWare gets more slack than any other developer, considering how pitiful NWN was and how many awards and great reviews it got. They basically made Vampire: the Masquerade - Redemption in Forgotten Realms with a much larger budget, more time, and a hell of a lot more people. Redemption also requires much more art content given two eras as well. I didn't see Nihilistic get rave reviews and gobs of awards for what they did versus Bioware.

Don't get me wrong, I didn't care much for Redemption, but if BioWare got fellaciated for NWN, Nihilistic should have gotten just as much, if not more, for being there first.

Deus Ex with fangs. A FPS is a FPS. This ain't gonna be Buffy meets Morrowind, despite the exhortations of the Troika faithful.

About the only thing you can back this statement up with is that Bloodlines has guns because it takes place in the Modern Nights Era. Not having the linear mission progression based on a map cycle alone pushes it closer to Morrowind than Deus Ex.

I could do without the first person perspective. I'd much prefer an isometric viewpoint.

I think somebody should give credit where credit is due for the amazing McGuyvering of an old engine that was done with IWD2. I agree with the AoO issue, but nonetheless the IWD2 engine was pretty good given the limitations the developers were working under.

You'd think this argument would apply to Troika for Bloodlines. After all, they're dealing with the Vampire license, someone else's intellectual property. Using an intellectual property that's not your own is a limitation.

Of course, you could fault BIS for using the old Infinity Engine, which was never a good engine to begin with, for so long rather than developing an engine for themselves. Basically, making a clean engine that was suited for what they need now and in the future, like they're finally doing. Relying on it for four years is basically like painting yourself in the corner.

 

[EEVIAC]

The other was the avatar. I thought the avatars were a bit ugly.

I liked most of the avatars. Some of them looked very much as I do, which helped me be immersed in the game. So I guess you're saying I'm ugly?

Therefore, as you can plainly see, the chances of those games not sucking as CRPGs are higher. It's all a matter of degree, really. There isn't much competition either.

Sadly, this is very true. If anyone can point out an RPG in development that is isometric and TB, with multiple combat and non combat solutions, please do.

 

[Spazmo]

There's this pretty cool one called Fallout.

Aside from that, try Geneforge.

 

[Eldar]

I have to concur regarding the IE. I liked the games and I'm not willing to say the engine was bad so much as the engine became outdated. BIS should have created a new engine a long time ago. Maybe they couldn't. I don't know. ...But they simply had to move forward or they were going to fall off the face of the planet.

Regardless of how good or bad the engine was from the beginning, and I've heard that the design teams never liked it, it was pretty bad by the end.

 

[Jed]

Sadly, this is very true. If anyone can point out an RPG in development that is isometric and TB, with multiple combat and non combat solutions, please do.

Prelude to Darkness kicks a fair amount of ass.

 

[Jarinor]

I think Golden Land fulfills those requirements. Eastern European and Russian developers are really getting into the RPG market these days...Maybe they'll become the TB game equivalent of Japan?

 

[Eldar]

I think Golden Land fulfills those requirements. Eastern European and Russian developers are really getting into the RPG market these days...Maybe they'll become the TB game equivalent of Japan?

I shudder. The last thing we need is another anime jungle for CRPG.

 

[Nomad]

To be fair, SP, NWN offered a lot more than VtM:R. Yes, it took Bio a lot more people and a lot more time, but it was a more complete product at the end. That's actually an interesting point: the last quote I heard from Bio it took them about 150 man-years to do NWN. That is not the same as (or anywhere close to) 75 people 5 years which is what I've seen many people around here say. Did I miss a quote somewhere?

Back to VtM:R. I enjoyed VtM:R; I liked the environment and setting, story, characters and the fact that there were multiple endings. I didn't like the fact that if I left an NPC back at the beginning of the level, he or she would miraculously appear for a cut-scene, but I can live with it. Also, I didn't like their Storyteller interface or their editing solution.

NWN offered, arguably at least as good a story, more source content, a better DM Client, an easier to use Toolset and better post-ship support. No, none of it is perfect or necessarily exactly how one of us would've done it, but it's still a pretty good package.

Anyway, I don't want to beat this to death, SP. I appreciate your point of view, even if I don't share it. I also appreciate the background all of you have offered. It's given me a lot to think about and forced me to go out and get some games I should've gotten a while ago (FO, PS:T and Arcanum).

Thanks, guys!


N.

 

[Zetor]

There was a Hungarian dev team working on a game just like that [turn-based, isometric and completely event-driven], too bad they basically canned the project in '98.
Here's a link.

BTW Tri, Arcanum wasn't the first game with a continuous world; Arena was [or Betrayal at Krondor, I guess; the 'zones' were only for loading the new sections]

About the IE.. shrug. I played BG2 through at least twice [with various mods] and I can't say I played through Arcanum once. I guess I could point out how much of a better game Arcanum is from a design standpoint, but the 'oh, let's go into another 100-level dungeon you have to abuse the system to beat' angle really destroyed my enthusiasm. Then again, I also preferred FO2 to FO1, so I'm probably one of the impure fanboys who'll probably like FOBOS [] YMMV.

-- Z.

 

[Eldar]

...the last quote I heard from Bio it took them about 150 man-years to do NWN. That is not the same as (or anywhere close to) 75 people 5 years which is what I've seen many people around here say. Did I miss a quote somewhere?

This is from Sabotai's long post on the first page. For my part, I don't mind giving Bioware a break. I just see the title as a real letdown.

Anyhow, this is alleged to be straight from the mouths of the Bioware team.

At its peak, the team numbered more than 75 people - with 22 programmers working on aspects as diverse as the game client, independent servers, the Dungeon Master client, and the world creation tools (the BioWare Aurora Neverwinter Toolset). Not only did the final game feature a large number of programmed features, but we also had hundreds of monsters, thousands of custom scripts, and a substantial single- or multiplayer campaign (featuring 60 to 100 hours of gameplay). Coordination of such a large team presented us with a number of unique management challenges, and in retrospect we learned a number of lessons regarding managing huge projects, many of which are described in this article.

 

[Monte Carlo]

Pissy Rant

Whatever.

You don't want ad hominem, don't give idiocy.

And the arbiter of what constitutes idiocy would be you, I suppose?

Simple as that, understand?

You'll be trying to take my lunch money next, won't you?

Why don't you accept the baffling notion that people might think differently from you without being so fucking rude?

Cheers
MC

 

[Jarinor]

I think Golden Land fulfills those requirements. Eastern European and Russian developers are really getting into the RPG market these days...Maybe they'll become the TB game equivalent of Japan?

I shudder. The last thing we need is another anime jungle for CRPG.

Yeah, I actually meant that as Japan produces a whole heap of real time CRPG's, maybe Eastern Europe and Russia will start producing a whole heap of turn based ones.

 

[Jarinor]

You don't want ad hominem, don't give idiocy.

And the arbiter of what constitutes idiocy would be you, I suppose?

Not my little flame war, but what makes you any more qualified to declare something as non-idiotic?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Why don't you accept the baffling notion that people might think differently from you without being so fucking rude?

There is a difference between a stupid and ignorant statement like "VtM:B = Deus Ex with fangs" and a different opinion based on some logic and available info.

When you say something like that, considering that DE is basically a linear shooter with a few dialogues lines that make little difference on the gameplay, and considering what Leon told about Bloodlines so far, how do you expect people to react? You may not like the game, the genre itself, the fact that it's not a (insert your favourite genre here), just say so and explain your point of view, but don't make a fool out of yourself and then get upset when people point that out.

 

[Nightblade]

Re: I don't play any non-Infinity engine games

I just looked at some of the ToEE screenshots, after I read about some company called Troika over at the BIS boards :wink: The game, ToEE looked just like the IE games, with slightly more lame/cartoonish avatar pictures and avatars. I hate cartoon-like crpgs.

So, did you actually play any IE based game? Baldur's Gate in particular has the most cartoony portraits I've ever seen.

Hmm.. a lot of hot tempered replies here. Well, I guess that's what I get for trolling :D
Anyway, take a look at these, and tell me what you think. I.e, which pics are cartoonish and which are not. I think you'll come to see my point of view.

(From Baldur's Gate II)



(And from ToEE)



The ToEE picture is grossly enlarged, so it's a bit unfair to compare, but you still see the difference. ToEE is, like many other crpgs, but unlike the IE games, very Mickey-Mousey-like.. imo *shrug*

[N]

 

[Vault Dweller]

The game, ToEE looked just like the IE games, with slightly more lame/cartoonish avatar pictures and avatars. I hate cartoon-like crpgs.

First, cartoon-style avatar pictures do not make a game cartoon-like. Second, what sets ToEE apart from the IE crowd is gameplay (turn-based combat, true implementation of 3E, different starting locations, etc), not some awesome, never-before-seen avatars with lip sync and lifelike facial expressions. Besides, it's a bit silly to judge a CRPG by the avatar pictures, don't you think?

The ToEE picture is grossly enlarged, so it's a bit unfair to compare

It's a bit unfair to compare the least ridiculous BG2 portrait (I could not help but notice that you did not pick a totally gay picture of Anomen) with a randomly chosen, "grossly enlarged" ToEE picture that may or may not change by the time the game is finished. Personally, I prefer cartoon portraits because they often have more personality then pretty but empty "real-life" pictures.

 

[Araanor]

Yes, why?

Or do you mean, "did you read about the games through the eyes of an uncritical Troika fanboy?"

In which case, no.

So I'm automatically a fanboy because I don't agree with you? Ad hominem you say?

Games developers use hyperbole when describing their games that would make boxing promoters blush. They all do it. Why wouldn't Troika?

Not to the degree you're implying. I'm pretty sure I get what I expect from TOEE out of reading the interviews; a CRPG not only with hack and slash but with actual role-playing elements.

Bioware, however, go hand in hand with hyperbole.

Let's wait and see.

Indeed.

 

[EEVIAC]

There's this pretty cool one called Fallout.

Aside from that, try Geneforge.

I did say "in development" - and I forgot about Golden Land. That makes two games. I'm muted in my hopes for Lionheart because its RT with pause.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

To be fair, SP, NWN offered a lot more than VtM:R. Yes, it took Bio a lot more people and a lot more time, but it was a more complete product at the end.

BioWare may offered some easier to use thngs in their package, but the packages are the same. They're both single player and multiplayer, real time action CRPGs. They both offer an online DM mode. They both ship with editors allowing players to create their own maps. All the big features NWN has, Redemption had.

Back to VtM:R. I enjoyed VtM:R; I liked the environment and setting, story, characters and the fact that there were multiple endings. I didn't like the fact that if I left an NPC back at the beginning of the level, he or she would miraculously appear for a cut-scene, but I can live with it. Also, I didn't like their Storyteller interface or their editing solution.

I could have done with cutscenes not even being in V:tM.

NWN offered, arguably at least as good a story,

I'm not sure you could argue NWN had even remotely as good a story as Redemption, really. You could argue that the purpose of the single player story was cliche, the old vampire tries to make good scenario, but the story was well done.

NWN's "story" had no player involvement until the very end. It was, through the entire game, Hero, go fetch these items! followed by getting the items and then having some climactic end battle deal. You never really felt like you were part of the story because you really weren't. All you were there to do is kill things and play fetch.

more source content,

If you count third party creations, sure. Then again, that's the result of a larger fan base.

a better DM Client,

Perhaps, but Redemption still had one, it was functional and usable. That was my point, that Redemption offered as much as NWN did, but got no accolades for it at all.

Also, it's a lot easier to make a better second than to be the poineer.

an easier to use Toolset and better post-ship support.

Easier to use, sure, but Redemption still shipped with an editor. The editor Redemption shipped with was also one that many people were familar with using at the time, since it was based on QERadiant.

 

[Monte Carlo]

Ah, I detect a sacred cow.

So the rule is that you can make an opinionated generalisation about anything but a Troika product? Ah, I understand now.

As far as I'm concerned VtM:BL is a FPS action/RPG hybrid. The developers have admitted as such. It uses a FPS engine (and a superlative one at that), and it is clearly aimed at being a cross-over hit trying a bit of ingenious genre-blending.

OK, hang on to your hats. Opinions ahoy.

I find the entire Vampire thing tragic, adolescent and lame. So, admittedly, this title holds little for me. If I redact from the verbiage by developers I've read (and I think I'm entitled to given the veracity of games developers in pre-release interviews) then I think it's fair to say that we are looking at a FPS game with a dose of RP'ing. Nothing much more.

Of course, it's anybody's perogative to assume that the pedigree of the developer (and my POV, natch, is that it rests on one game I didn't have a great deal of time for) means that this will still be more than it's sum of parts. Fine. But please don't expect all of us to agree on that. You see one thing. I see, perhaps another.

Please, throw all the insults you care. The fact of the matter is that some of you are operating a double-standard because of your affection for Troika and the faded glory of Fallout.

And that's absolutely fine. As long as you don't dress it up as something else, like a superior taste in games or something. Which is the way it comes across.

Cheers
MC

 

[Eldar]

I probably have the worst taste in games here. Simply put, I like most of them. Hell, if I'm going to shell out the cash, I'm going to find a way to enjoy the game. I even played NWN for what it was worth. Sure, it was a dismal failure, but I managed to get through it a couple of times.

NWN must be the worst CRPG I've played in some time. There are CRPGs out there that I suspected would be worse, but I didn't buy them because.... I suspected they would be worse. I have a limited amount of time, and so I'm usually somewhat careful about what I buy. Likewise, I don't like to throw away money.

As for Troika, Nightblade pointed out that the portraits in ToEE look "cartoonish." Someone else points out that the IE portraits were just as cartoonish. Nightblade demonstrates that, even taking into account the enlarged ToEE portrait, that the BGII portrait is superior. Someone else points out that he'd rather have a cartoonish portrait than a realistic one. Come on! Sure, it's a matter of taste, but this is ridiculous. Troika, as far as I can see, has demonstrated real skills in Arcanum. Do they have to be superior at everything? We can't even agree that the IE portraits are good not because of matters of taste but because of the herd mentality when it comes to the IE. Hell, it's the same with the voice over talent. I don't know what ToEE will sport, but the voiceover work for the IE games, with few exceptions, was excellent.

Rather than hot tempered responses, we should have tempered responses.

 

[triCritical]

Ah, I detect a sacred cow.

Yes, just like BIS on the BIS boards. Boy its funny sacred cows are only bad when its not your favorite company. Come on, your better then this. Its seems like you are honing your argumentative skills for an upcoming debate.

So the rule is that you can make an opinionated generalisation about anything but a Troika product? Ah, I understand now.

You can, no one has ever stopped you. But try going to a board filled with MW fanatics and making an inflammatory post in regards to MW there. Ad hominem city. The poiint is, your remarks were cleary aimed to incite tempers. Deus Ex with fangs, because a game has guns is hardly appropriate since Leon has said that hitting will work more like MW then Deus Ex. One company made Daikatana the other made Arcanum. I am willing to bet that chances are that it will be more like a RPG then a FPS. I may be wrong, but this his what my hunch gives me.

As far as I'm concerned VtM:BL is a FPS action/RPG hybrid. The developers have admitted as such. It uses a FPS engine (and a superlative one at that), and it is clearly aimed at being a cross-over hit trying a bit of ingenious genre-blending.

MIght and Magic 9, and Torn used an FPS engine. As well as Freedom Force and Morrowind. THis is probably one of the worst arguments. And you are playing with words. The genre blending is simply what was done with Arena and Daggerfall. Leon never said it would be revolutionary or evolutionary, he just said they were blending the genres, nothing new since Arena is about 10 years old.

I find the entire Vampire thing tragic, adolescent and lame. So, admittedly, this title holds little for me. If I redact from the verbiage by developers I've read (and I think I'm entitled to given the veracity of games developers in pre-release interviews) then I think it's fair to say that we are looking at a FPS game with a dose of RP'ing. Nothing much more.

I would agree that the previews have painted this game as FPS games. And until the interviews with developers and questions I asked on the Bloodlines board, I believed this. But the developers have pretty much had the take that this is a hardcore RPG, in which the marketed the graphics engine in E3. Knowing the fuckwits in Activision, it doesn't surprise me.

Please, throw all the insults you care. The fact of the matter is that some of you are operating a double-standard because of your affection for Troika and the faded glory of Fallout.

And this would be completely foriegn to you.

 

[MF]

Well. The Arcanum portraits were really stylish. Elves with Victorian haircuts, Habsburg chins with red noses. Wonderfully done.

I do agree the portrait taken from a screenshot of TOEE is rather cartoony, but keep in mind that it is a status portrait. It may have been stylized to improve clarity. Like an icon on your desktop is seldom a wonderfullly realistic and accurate representation of whatever it is.

 

[Vault Dweller]

So the rule is that you can make an opinionated generalisation about anything but a Troika product?

Can you be more specific? Can you point out the examples of "opinionated generalization" and double-standards you mentioned later?

If I redact from the verbiage by developers I've read (and I think I'm entitled to given the veracity of games developers in pre-release interviews) then I think it's fair to say that we are looking at a FPS game with a dose of RP'ing. Nothing much more.

Then I must question your reading comprehension skill. Allow me to demonstrate

As you said, we’re known as a developer of deep and complex role-playing games, and Bloodlines will be no exception. It will have all the depth and characterizations that people have come to expect from us. So, to answer your question, I’d characterize it as an RPG with action elements (which is not the same as a FPS with rpg elements - VD)

While embracing the action elements afforded to us by using Valve's technology, this game is still a Troika RPG with complex dialogue trees, rich character development, deep quests, plus non-linear, open-ended gameplay that allows the player to create their character any way they want from any of seven different Vampire clans.

Any questions? So where did you get this idea about "a FPS game with a dose of RP'ing"?

 

[triCritical]

Re: I don't play any non-Infinity engine games

Hmm.. a lot of hot tempered replies here. Well, I guess that's what I get for trolling :D
Anyway, take a look at these, and tell me what you think. I.e, which pics are cartoonish and which are not. I think you'll come to see my point of view.

(From Baldur's Gate II)

You obviously don't know your history. When the BG2 portraits came out they were hated, and ridiculed and people thought that they were hastely put together throwing together childish pastels. Futhermore, the difference you see, well it better be if your argument is to have any validity, is the quality. And the quality itself would be impossible to compare like this. If you want to make it fair why don't you find a screenshot with the aformentioned portrait from BG2 and blow it up, they do exist.

And a little bit of a RPGcodex note, this board is about RPG's. And not only do I think portraits are a huge waste of time and completely unnecessary, but they mean absolutely nothing as far as RPG's are concerned. Note, I also hated the portraits for Arcanum, it did not stop me from noticeing the exceptional attention to detail and the quality of the roleplaying aspects in that game.