Sawyer and ToEE, Troika, BIS and Bio

[HanoverF]

I'll take Ians silence and propensity to turn my back into swiss cheese anyday over Minsc's "Crawl up my Butt-Cheeks for Justice, Boo!"

If you have to worlds most forgiving sense of humor, thats funny once, maybe twice tops.

 

[Tris McCall]

Hanover wrote:

<< I'll take Ians silence and propensity to turn my back into swiss cheese anyday over Minsc's "Crawl up my Butt-Cheeks for Justice, Boo!">>

Indeed. Minsc was insufferable. But hey, if you didn't mind having an evil berserker in the party, you could quickly replace him with Korgan, who was a better front-line fighter and occasionally *did* say funny things, in a mock-Scottish accent to boot.

Despite the cheesiness and general unbelievability of the romances, the characters and voice-acting in Shadows of Amn were a positive for me. There seemed to be a conscious decision made by the developers to make each NPC annoying in a completely distinct fashion. That was the game's best claim to role-playing depth and uniqueness -- if you carried a full party (and who didn't?) it forced you to manage five difficult personalities. I can't think of another game that managed to create such realistic inter-party dissention.

Tris

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

BG2??????!!!!! What a mistake! That was a really fun game! You are missing out on a real treat if you have never played that. Don't tar it with the same brush as IWD - that was a truly drab and lackluster game. It was also a lot better than NWN which suffered from an extremely shallow plot. How can you call yourself a hardcore RPG fan and never have played BG2?????

Actually, I gave the demo a whirl and absolutely hated it much like I hated the first one. It's just so utterly pandering and flat, the combat is so silly and automated, that there was no way in hell I was going to cough up $50 for it.

I didn't like the combat in PS:T either, but the rest of the game kept me interested until near the end, where the game actually started getting more of a combat focus. When the combat bores me to tears, I stop playing when there's not much else. Let's face it, BG2, like the first BG, doesn't offer a hell of a lot more than combat as the outcome to anything.

PST is a real sacred cow round here isn't it? I'll admit it is one of my favourite games ever, maybe my absolute favourite ever, but get a bit of perspective - it had its faults too. Remember the really boring guy in the Burning Corpse that practically read out the manual of the Planes to you? The repetitive series of fights in Curst? The errand-boy quests? The lack of any really exciting combats?

It's hardly a sacred cow. It has a lot of faults, and I think it's pretty overrated. It is the best Infinity Engine game, though, which is like saying a broken nose is the best type of fracture to have. PS:T is linear as hell, and the combat stinks. However, it does have an interesting story and you can make some neat choices in the game. The character mechanics were really good, too, even if they were borrowed from Fallout.

And as for Fallout, it had bugs everywhere, and stupid followers that shoot you in the back and have no personality. Ian or Sulik are not to be compared to Minsc or Jan Jansen or Edwin in terms of personality (or even AI ;-) ). And yeah, I like the Fallouts better than BG2, but that *still* doesn't mean that the BG series are not enjoyable to play.

Fallout had friendly fire, it has nothing to do with the followers being stupid. It has to do with their lack of skills with a weapon.

As for having personality, it's really hard to argue they have much personality when they're nothing more than your meat puppet through most of the game. I really detest full control of followers.

If you play BG1, there's a sense of achievement when you found magical weapons. Could be that they were less in amount and far apart. BG2 is too condensed - even if you don't think there's too much loot, the problem is that most areas have high-end loot everywhere in it. There can obviously be loot as reward - but high-end loot in multiple instances in the same area? *engages in Latin mode* Role-Player thinks not. Role-Player knows not.

How about NWN's third act, where you start in this tiny speck of a town where all the shops have +3 weapons and armor?

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

How about NWN's third act, where you start in this tiny speck of a town where all the shops have +3 weapons and armor?

Yeah that was also aggravating. I always wonder how farming communities always have some sort of mad hedgewizard or in this case, a weapons shop with magic gear up the wazoo.

 

[Elwro]

[Because the sense of achievement is somewhat gone. [cut]
Overall taking items from the player kind of ruins the experience. I mean, what's the point in arming myself in BG1 if all i fought for, from a gear-related side, is gone?

If ADOM takes an item from you, you know it's YOUR fault, and not the game's, and that's why it's right. Didn't wear the ring of ice while battling a red dragon? Should've fled. Didn't put all your possesions in a waterproof blanket before swimming? Didn't use an oil of rust removal on your favourite weapon, and now it's too late? Didn't think that putting your scrolls on the ground of the Tower of Eternal Flames might be a bad idea? Silly you. Didn't detect the acid trap and now you don't have any wands? Your PC is lame and that's all.
ADOM never takes anything from you "because you would be too powerful".

I understand the balance part, but it wasn't addressed. Played EotB? From 1 to 3 your party was able to be exported with all their gear. This lead to the follow-ups being extremely easy, as you acumulated items and levels. .

For me EOB2 was still hard (I took my party from EOB1).

Fallout had friendly fire, it has nothing to do with the followers being stupid. It has to do with their lack of skills with a weapon.

Well, Sulik did charge the Enclave patrols armed only with his hammer.
[/quote]

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

If ADOM takes an item from you, you know it's YOUR fault, and not the game's, and that's why it's right. Didn't wear the ring of ice while battling a red dragon? Should've fled. Didn't put all your possesions in a waterproof blanket before swimming? Didn't use an oil of rust removal on your favourite weapon, and now it's too late? Didn't think that putting your scrolls on the ground of the Tower of Eternal Flames might be a bad idea? Silly you. Didn't detect the acid trap and now you don't have any wands? Your PC is lame and that's all.
ADOM never takes anything from you "because you would be too powerful".

Yes and those are good things to affect your gear given the circumstances. Having a shield lose 2 points in its durability because someone hit it with an axe (neverminding the fact the axe would cut it right in half), like in MW, has a level of managing gear which really doesn't cut it. For me, anyways.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Fallout had friendly fire, it has nothing to do with the followers being stupid. It has to do with their lack of skills with a weapon.

Well, Sulik did charge the Enclave patrols armed only with his hammer.

So did I.

Melee in Fallout/Fallout 2 is the best skill, IMHO. The super sledgehammer is a hell of a nice weapon.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Turn base vs. Real Time debate has NOTHING to do with role-playing. Thsoe effect combat,a nd that's it.

*looks for "imo" disclaimer, finds nothing and sighs mutterng something about hypocrisy*
Well, in my opinion, it has SOMETHING to do with role-playing but it depends on a character. If you character is a fighter who only swings his sword, it makes little difference whether it's TB or RT, if you made your character a specialist and/or you want to role-play your character abilities, it's supported much better in TB because in RT it's often a costly mistake to focus on one character for a long enough time while the rest of the idiots are hacking and slashing. D2 managed to pull it off because you have only one character to control. IE games play like RTS, drag, point and click, watch the health levels, feed a potion or two, cast a couple of spells, hoping that none of the idiots would walk into the AoE of the spell.

 

[protobob]

Melee?!

...H2H is the way to go in my opinion. The super power fist is excellent. Plus you get to make use of your skills as a boxer in New Reno and as a kung-fu champ in San Fran.

My second favorite weapon is the Red Ryder LE. 100 shots before reload, damage is 'ok,' but when you are shooting people in the eyes, you don't need much more with FO2's extreme critical hit tables.

I have fond memories of taking down hoards of robots with that gun. Blind them by taking out their optical lens, the rest is cake.

 

[Volourn]

VD, hypocrisy? On RPGCodex? Perish the thought.

Huh? In the IE games, all you'd have to do is pause the game. Not hard really. Still, what youd escribe is tataics and strategy; not roel-playing. You don't inetract with the world in a role-playing sense in combat other than to get rid of epople; it's the chocies that may lead to battle that may, or may not be role-playing.

Speciialist? You mean being a defesneive warrior, offenseive one, tripper, etc., etc.? Well,... you can do a lot of special attacks in NWN and that game is RT.. then again.. you only control one character there as well. Of cours,e anyone who knows anything also knows that it wouldn't be that hard to give warriors more options in the IE combat - from trip to disarm; it can be all there.

 

[Vault Dweller]

In the IE games, all you'd have to do is pause the game.

You pause the game, you issue commands, and then you unpause back to total chaos. (Disclaimer: I never had any problems controlling IE combat, so don't assume that I sucked at it and was unable to play. If anything it was too easy.) The pause thing good for simplistic commands: attack, cast a spell, disrupt a spell, etc. Anything more complex looses in comparison to TB for obvious reasons.

Still, what youd escribe is tataics and strategy; not roel-playing.

Well, role-playing your character combat built is role-playing nonetheless. One of my fav rpg characters is a thaumaturgist from Prelude, who lacked concentration to learn more then one spell, but had a good arm, so he used one to augment the other: charged throwing knives with electricity and wreaked havoc Granted, this is a simplistic example, but if you take something more complex like DnD and even SPECIAL, there are plenty of builts that requires more then a pause.

Well,... you can do a lot of special attacks in NWN and that game is RT.. then again.. you only control one character there as well.

Agree, so let me make a correction, "TB and RT solo"

Of cours,e anyone who knows anything also knows that it wouldn't be that hard to give warriors more options in the IE combat - from trip to disarm; it can be all there.

So...why wasn't it done? It seems to me that IWD2 would have been much better with ToEE selection of feats and actions. I'm not saying that it's impossible as everything is possible theoretically, but some things just wouldn't work. Like I said before, actions that require your prolonged attention would be taken at the expense of other characters' abilities, if you automate the actions it would be like DS which is a screensaver.

 

[Volourn]

Please don't use DS at all.That game is nothing - if it can even be considered a game.

You eem to forget that when paused in the IE; you have unlimited time to choose your next action just like in tb so nothing needs to be that complicated. Example, let's talk about a nice D&D option that TOEE has that is - hold an attck for when an enemy approaches - that would eb very simple to add to an IE type engine - just have character select hold for approach and boom chaarcter waits, enem approaches, attack of oppurtunity occurs.

I never found the IE combat total chaos. It is as easy to follow as any turn based game, imo.

Your example can easily be done by a character in a pseudo or heck a full fledge RT game. I don't think it proves that tb is superior in "role-playing" your character sin tb.

It wasn't done in IWD2 for so many reasons. I'm not going to make any exuses for a game I'm not even that fond of to begin with. However, I'll just state that it wans't IWD2's combat system that turned me off.

 

[Vault Dweller]

when paused in the IE; you have unlimited time to choose your next action just like in tb so nothing needs to be that complicated.

You give an order to perform an action, the execution will be carried after you unpause, in the middle of a combat in real time, subject to every whim of AI. Here is another example, have you ever cast Blade Barrier in IE games? You never know what path your cleric of walking doom would take unless you are monitoring his every step thus abandoning other characters. Same goes for many other things that require close supervision.

Example, let's talk about a nice D&D option that TOEE has that is - hold an attck for when an enemy approaches - that would eb very simple to add to an IE type engine - just have character select hold for approach and boom chaarcter waits, enem approaches, attack of oppurtunity occurs.

Your example is irrelevant, it's a delayed action that doesn't require your supervision after the order is given, even in TB aoo occurs automatically.

 

[Volourn]

Um.. You have to watch your characters every move in a tb game as well. Not like the AI is any better so your example is irrelevant.

 

[Elwro]

Fallout had friendly fire, it has nothing to do with the followers being stupid. It has to do with their lack of skills with a weapon.

Well, Sulik did charge the Enclave patrols armed only with his hammer.

So did I.

Melee in Fallout/Fallout 2 is the best skill, IMHO. The super sledgehammer is a hell of a nice weapon.

There were some random encounters which could happen quite early in the game and contain Enclave Patrols armed with rocket launchers - and they would fire first. It was a sure death situation, but even if you miraculously survived the first shots, Sulik would charge the guys. I know that Melee skill is great, but not early in the game against Enclave patrols.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Um.. You have to watch your characters every move in a tb game as well. Not like the AI is any better so your example is irrelevant.

Edit: That's the whole point. TB is better because in a TB game you are the AI, and there is no doubt that an average human being can outhink generic AI and respond to evolving situation accordingly. TB gives you a turn to act for every character while the rest are waiting, RT allows you to plan your actions, if you execute them step by step, you are leaving other characters at the mercy of AI, and therein lies the problem

 

[Volourn]

Aye, which is exactly what I do in the IE games. Still doens't change the fact that the AI in tb games isn't neccessary great and you ahve to babysit them.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Sorry, I thought you were gone, so I edited my post completely. My bad.

 

[Volourn]

Umm... in the IE, youa re the AI as well since you control the characters just like in TOEE.

You seem to be arguing in favor of player controlled PCs over uncontrolled npc party members.

Which means you hate that aspect of FO. That's odd. It'sone of the things I like about FO. Hmmm..


Gone? Why would I leave?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Umm... in the IE, youa re the AI as well since you control the characters just like in TOEE.

You don't really believe that you have the same control over your party members in TB mode as in RT mode, do you? Why then you said that TB is more tactical if you can do all these things in RT?

You seem to be arguing in favor of player controlled PCs over uncontrolled npc party members.

Not really. It's a tough issue, and depends entirely on implementation. I like Fallout's system a lot, it's nearly perfect. Arcanum, on the other hand, had this annoying thing with Virgil trying to heal my uber-tech character. ToEE has some interesting npcs, but the loot thingy, although realistic, is annoying too. If it's a dungeon crawler, I want full control. If it's a classic RPG like Fallout I want true npcs.

Which means you hate that aspect of FO. That's odd. It'sone of the things I like about FO. Hmmm..

You are on a roll today. First, you assume that I'm in favour of controllable npcs, then that I hate something in Fallout. Do you really need me to have a conversation with me, you seem to be doing great by yourself :wink:
No, I don't hate anything in Fallout. I even like Ian's friendly fire

Gone? Why would I leave?

Not gone gone, logged out.

 

[AlanC9]

Since Volourn's handling the TB/RT argument nicely, I'll go back to excessive D&D loot.

I didn't have to play long into ToEE before realizing that this argument is effectively over. Monty Haul has won. Deal with it.

Troika didn't put excessive treasure in the module, from what I've seen (disclaimer: haven't quite finished yet). But they implemented 3.5 item creation, more or less correctly. Since there are no time constraints in the game, the only effective limitation is the lack of masterwork items at the blacksmiths.

Unless the player refuses to use this feature, a ToEE party ends up far better equipped than a BG1:TotSC party ever could.

The problem is in the D&D rules themselves, which are no longer consistent with low-magic worlds.

 

[Volourn]

VD; Hey, I cna't be here all the time even with the geeat company. :D

Turn base combat isn't inherently more tatical, imo; but the games that use it tend to be. I find tatically, NWN and the IE games are almsot as good. The reason why they are only almost as good is because TOEE offers more options. Options, that if a developer, wanted to could add into a pseudo RT/TB games liek NWN.

Your example is an AI problem with Virgil; not the fact he is AI controlled on its own. Same with Ia shooting tht eplayer. It is poor AI; not the fact it is AI control. I, myself, personally, prefer the FO/NWN style of AI controlled npcs over player controlled ones ala the IE - even though the IE had much better npcs personality, and role-playing wise.

 

[Ibbz]

I'm sorry, but what do people expect Shops to sell to 15th level and above adventurers?

Wooden swords?

 

[Psilon]

It'd make a lot more sense given the city size. Given the teleport spells which everyone but the PCs seem to have, why the hell couldn't Neverwinter import some +5 swords of Wail of the Banshee back in Chapter One? Why not ship some kickass spell-resistance-ninety plate mail in with the reagent convoy?

Even more so, why are there better items in, say, the Cloaktower in Chapter Four, when there's only one remaining mage and everyone else has skipped town? If I were fleeing my magical laboratory, I'd make damn sure to loot the place for anything useful. You'd expect to see more uber items in Chapter One, when no one has been allowed to leave and all the adventurers were still hanging around. Sure, mark 'em up to where only the cheaters can afford them, but they should be more plentiful when the city is still more-or-less functioning.

 

[Ultron]

I find tatically, NWN and the IE games are almsot as good.

:shock:

I almost choked on my Sam Adams.....