Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Sawyer and ToEE, Troika, BIS and Bio

Dan

Liturgist
Joined
Oct 21, 2002
Messages
255
Location
Israel
I'm still a little confused as to what want down in the IPLY boards... Was it JE's argument with Visceris? It seems like nothing really happened.

I tend to agree with you Whipporowill, talented people are leaving BIS one by one... It just looks like there is no room for creative devs and games there...

I know you are working on a project JE, and as such probably feel devoted to it, but I wonder after all the decision being forced upon you, would you leave BIS if you had another option?
 

J.E. Sawyer

Obsidian Entertainment
Developer
Joined
Sep 27, 2003
Messages
72
Dan said:
I know you are working on a project JE, and as such probably feel devoted to it, but I wonder after all the decision being forced upon you, would you leave BIS if you had another option?

I've had a few other options. Maybe someday I'll tell you guys about it all.

But really, I just can't wait to say, "This is what Fallout fans have been waiting for since TORN!"
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Mar 10, 2003
Messages
24,924
I have not atatacked Tim Cain. All I ahve ever satted that the game has been very buggy for me, and the role-playing is not as well thought out as Troika claimed. And, oh, by the way, I have been on the Atari boards for months. I didn't migrate over from anywhere. I was very much interested in TOEE.

In fact I like Troika's games. Arcanum is one of my favorite games, and TOEE is a good and fun game besides its weaknesses when it actually works! Onc eagain, I was enjoying TOEE when the game was ACTUALLY working. Not to mention, I have posted quite a few positive things about the game on the Atari boards, and have even helped those with actual questions so your point is full of fanboyism Exitium. You are just too blind to notice the one improtant thing - TOEE has lots of rpoblems that deserve to be criticized period.

Let's go over this again:

1. I loved Aracnum, and have even defended its combat which many hate.

2. I didn't storm the Atari boards at all. I've been there for months. My being on the Atari baords has absolutely nothing to do with NWN. It has to do that TOEE is a D&D game and I'm almost alwasy interested in D&D games. Period.

3. I think TOEE is a fun game - mainly in combat - when the bugs don't intervere.

4. Stop being an over protetcive fanboy. Troikians have repsonded to my posts from tiem to time, and unlike you they haven't blindly defended the game even half as much as the fanboys have. Heck, they have even stated the bugs are THEIR fault. You want prove that Troika doesn't seem to mind me too much - I was repsonded to when I complained about the familairs being objects and not creatures. No harsh words from eithe rparty.

5. I am dissapointed how buggy my copy of the game is; and I am letting them know. If you don't like cover eyes, and ignore my posts.

6. Gaide rlikes TOEE, and since you seem to enjoy attacking Dave Gaider even when he cna't defend himself. All he stated was that both POR2, and TOEE are turn based games which is true and turn base doesn't gurnatee quality. Just like IE style combat doesn't equal quality.

Let em repeat this one more time:

A. I ahve nothing personal against Troika. I enjoyed Aracnum immensely, and I very much was enjoying TOEE before my copy when the shits. I will complain about that fact just as mucha s you as you claim TOEE is perfect. Deal?

B. I didn't migrate from anwyehre. I've been on the Atari boards for a long while now. I didn't storm anywhere. Stop with the stupid conspiracy theories.

I'm glad you and others are enjoying TOEE; but I can't right now because of the bugs. I have as much of a right to complain about the game as you do to praise it blindly.


Enjoy.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,035
J.E. Sawyer said:
And I never said Tim sucks. :?
I never said you did. What I meant was that Tim didn't attack you specifically, he made a general comment that such questions should be directed at other companies. You, among other people, happened to work for one that fits the description, that's it. It doesn't make you the target.

An interviewer directed a question at Tim, Tim responded with a question. Mr. Teatime then directed that question to me, and I responded with my honest opinion. I'd like to know how you think I should have replied, if not with my honest opinion.
I would have replied the same way you replied before: "I don't pick the combat mode, the publisher does, the best I can do is to do both RT and TB. RT is certainly much farther from PnP DnD then TB is. RT DnD is, in fact, a hybrid, but we had a reason for doing things that way, thank you very much"
How is that?

It doesn't prevent the game from being great, but it's also not "OMG 100% D&D 2 THA MAXX"
Of course, you are right, it's only 95%, silly me :)

Did you read what I was responding to? Doomsayer claimed that it was ridiculous for Atari to believe that Troika could make ToEE a great game in 18 months. My response was challenging his assertion. I think it's perfectly reasonable that Atari believed they could do it. And they did... so... what's the problem, again?
Well, JE, I read a lot of your recent posts, and yes, you said many good things about ToEE and defended it, yet I still find the statements about dev time and number of less buggier versions to be questionable and totally unnecessary. You are entitled to your opinions, of course, so let's drop this discussion. Btw, I'm sorry about Jefferson and wish you luck with VB.

Edit:

JE said:
But really, I just can't wait to say, "This is what Fallout fans have been waiting for since TORN
Can't wait to hear you say that :wink:
 

Raymondo

Liturgist
Joined
Jul 24, 2003
Messages
143
Location
United Kingdom, baby!
Volourn, dude did you have to repeat yourself 3 times, that was just sad trying to rake up your post length by saying the same crap over and over.
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Mar 10, 2003
Messages
24,924
Raymond, apparantly I have to as people only read what they want to read and ignore the other stuff.

I would say TOEE is 80-90% of DnD rules which is higher than other games in the D&D genre. That's one part where they did very well on. Still, even just by going by the couple pages in the back of the manual there were a lot of thinsg they eitehr changed or ignored.

Nothing wrong with that. 'Tis life.
 

Sol Invictus

Erudite
Joined
Oct 19, 2002
Messages
9,614
Location
Pax Romana
In fact I like Troika's games. Arcanum is one of my favorite games, and TOEE is a good and fun game besides its weaknesses when it actually works! Onc eagain, I was enjoying TOEE when the game was ACTUALLY working. Not to mention, I have posted quite a few positive things about the game on the Atari boards, and have even helped those with actual questions so your point is full of fanboyism Exitium. You are just too blind to notice the one improtant thing - TOEE has lots of rpoblems that deserve to be criticized period.

Are you saying that I never criticize TOEE or even Troika? Well, I'll have you know that I certainly do. Is TOEE flawless? Far from it - the bugs are quite annoying, and we're working to fix them (yes I know Troika or rather, Atari should be the ones doing this, so don't bring this up - it's a moot point) but you don't hear me complaining about how the game is 'basically unplayable' because of some rules bugs over and over again like you TEND to do, but nowhere as much as that other person... Netherscourge.

Whining like that doesn't solve anything and only serves to reduce the game's popularity - a game which, so good, I believe everyone who likes turn based games should have a chance to play.

Let's go over this again:

1. I loved Aracnum, and have even defended its combat which many hate.

I liked Arcanum's dialogue, but I hated the character system (Steam), the combat, and the graphics were none too stellar for its day and age. In short, I did not like Arcanum. Am I still a Troika fanboy?

4. Stop being an over protetcive fanboy. Troikians have repsonded to my posts from tiem to time, and unlike you they haven't blindly defended the game even half as much as the fanboys have. Heck, they have even stated the bugs are THEIR fault. You want prove that Troika doesn't seem to mind me too much - I was repsonded to when I complained about the familairs being objects and not creatures. No harsh words from eithe rparty.

I know that. I've even gone so far as to complain about the HORRIBLE voice acting of Melany and the monk NPC to Tom himself after the RPGCodex chat and ask him what's up. I like how honest he was in giving them D ratings and his explanation for why what was certainly earned my respect.

5. I am dissapointed how buggy my copy of the game is; and I am letting them know. If you don't like cover eyes, and ignore my posts.

Don't complain so much. It solves nothing and only serves to burden the Troika guys with stress and other sorts of bad feelings. How does that help them make a patch, tell me.

6. Gaide rlikes TOEE, and since you seem to enjoy attacking Dave Gaider even when he cna't defend himself. All he stated was that both POR2, and TOEE are turn based games which is true and turn base doesn't gurnatee quality. Just like IE style combat doesn't equal quality.

Why make that comparison? Why cast that doubt? Doesn't he have anything better to do than to nail a game for 'being like POR2' even before its out? I'm sure he's eating his words right now, playing TOEE (which in my opinion is times better than his own game, NWN)

A. I ahve nothing personal against Troika. I enjoyed Aracnum immensely, and I very much was enjoying TOEE before my copy when the shits. I will complain about that fact just as mucha s you as you claim TOEE is perfect. Deal?

TOEE. Perfect? Hah. There wouldn't be a need for a mod forum if it was perfect. I'm getting really pissed off with the nerfing of the Balor and a variety of other characters in the game, too. What's up with that? Atari QA must have insisted on that.

I'm glad you and others are enjoying TOEE; but I can't right now because of the bugs. I have as much of a right to complain about the game as you do to praise it blindly.

As I've said before, I'm not praisingit blindly. I hardly like the dialogue (written or spoken) as it's really... bland, especially in comparison to Planescape: Torment, Arcanum and Fallout. I plan on changing that myself.

Ha! Great fun.
 

Raymondo

Liturgist
Joined
Jul 24, 2003
Messages
143
Location
United Kingdom, baby!
Volourn said:
Raymond, apparantly I have to as people only read what they want to read and ignore the other stuff.

Well if it comes to that, what makes you think making it bigger will get more people to read it? If anything less people will read it because they'll see it and think "WOW that looks like its going to take a long time to read and I cant really be arsed to read that!"

Huh people are lazy.
 

Dan

Liturgist
Joined
Oct 21, 2002
Messages
255
Location
Israel
J.E. Sawyer said:
But really, I just can't wait to say, "This is what Fallout fans have been waiting for since TORN!"

I thought that was Fo:BoS. :)
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Mar 10, 2003
Messages
24,924
So, in order to get othe rto people to buy the game, I should ignore the bugs, and the other problems and just state over and over what I like about the game? That isn't fair, or balanced, or even true.

Heck, as much as I like NWN I haven't stated the game is perfect either yet I'm considered a fanboy of that game. Heck, I rate it a 75% (the OC) which is about where I'd rate TOEE (not counting the bugs).

Sorry, you may not like it, but I will continue to post both positive and negative things about TOEE in the applicable threads.

It also doesn't help when the fans are blaming only Atari for the bugs yet these seem people place all the blame for NWN's bugs on BIO - in fact using the point that BIO is still releasing patches for it as a BAD thing.

Bottom line is, I like TOEE; but I will not sugarcoat it just so a couple more copies can be sold. In fact, as much as I like the game, I'm not reccommending it my friends until the patch is released that actually fixes the major problems.

As for you sometimes criticizing Troika or TOEE; as I ahve fiund out that is moot. I ahve criticized both BIo and NWN and am still labeled as their lapdog so I ain't cutting you any slack.

And, btw, it's not the little rules bugs that I complaina bout over and over again. It's the fact that the game crashes at EVERY FRIGGIN' LOAD SCREEN that I complain about. Heck, thank god for auto save or I'd never be able to get anywhere. Heh.

Just look at my posts from last week to this one. Sure, I had my complaints then but it wasn't nearly as bad now for obvious reasons.

Anyways, this is moot. You are like the others who attack me for no reasons. I'ma troll because I say bad things (not to mention good things) which may *desevredly* cause some possible consumers to think twice of buying a very buggy game. I have also pointed out what i think TOEE's good qualities are as well; but certain people ignore that fact.

Go figure.

Enjoy.


Raymond, LOL. :D
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Mar 10, 2003
Messages
24,924
LOL Even my poor typing wnats me to be destroyed. Thanks for the heads up. 8)

P.S. Too bad you had to quote my mistyped words. :oops:
 

Visceris

Liturgist
Joined
Aug 8, 2003
Messages
379
As much as we argue back and forth, it is just a discussion on one forum and I don't think it is important enough to drag it onto another forum. Maybe thats just me. Anyhoot, I am enjoying ToEE as well, at least having more fun with it than Volourn is *snicker* and there is more great news.

THE BROTHEL IS BACK!

http://greyhawk.lexx.eu.org/en/style_da ... hp?id=mods

(tee hee)
 

Dan

Liturgist
Joined
Oct 21, 2002
Messages
255
Location
Israel
The Brothel is back for quite some time now, and the happy modding crew in the Circle is crunching away with more fixes... A fan patch is already underway.
 

Shevek

Arcane
Joined
Sep 20, 2003
Messages
1,570
JE:

While I certainly disagree as to your reading of TC's comments (particularly as to them being 'levelled' at anyone other than the interviewer) and with your take on low level DnD combat (which I found enjoyable), I will admit that such things are open to interpretation. I must say that I appreciate your candor here and certainly wish you all the best with respect to VB.
 

Visceris

Liturgist
Joined
Aug 8, 2003
Messages
379
Dan said:
The Brothel is back for quite some time now, and the happy modding crew in the Circle is crunching away with more fixes... A fan patch is already underway.

Dammit, why didn't you tell me? :D
 

chrisbeddoes

Erudite
Joined
Oct 22, 2002
Messages
1,349
Location
RPG land
J.E. Sawyer the more that things like this are discussed the more things like this are improved.

In order to persuade the other side to talk some times you need to be a little
ehh aggressive.

Than does not mean that we do not like you.

The problem with turn based and real time is that some times prophecies when the one that is making them is powerful enough are self-fulfilling.

Marketing departments.

Real time games sell more.

Marketing departments making a self-fulfilling prophecy


Turn based is clearly superior.

It is just that turn based / real time is just 10 % of what can make a game great.

So I have a question for you.

Do you agree that turn based is superior to real time?

I think the answer could be yes.

Do you agree that real time games sell more than turn based?

I think the answer will be yes.

So the critical question is.

Do you agree that the only reason that real time games sell more than turn based is because this is a self-fulfilling prophecy made by the marketing departments?

In other words do you agree that if from two games that would be identical in every respect except one would be turn based and the other real time based, received equal support and funding by the publisher and say equal access to say Wal-Mart shelves and equal love by the developers and equal testing and debugging by the quality assurance team and equal exposure by the press the turn based game would be superior and would sell more?
Do you agree or disagree with that?
And to the other posters do you agree with this statement?
That the choice of turn based versus real time based will effect only in a minor degree
The quality and sales of the game because there are so many other unrelated factors?
Thank you for your 2 cents.
 

Briosafreak

Augur
Joined
Oct 21, 2002
Messages
792
Location
Atomic Portugal
As much as we argue back and forth, it is just a discussion on one forum and I don't think it is important enough to drag it onto another forum.

Quite the contrary Doomsy, just read the first reply by Josh on the BIS boards and then his replies here, if only i could drag him out more times... :wink:

Although i still won`t buy FOBOS Sawyer, i will drink a glass of champagne tonight to what you`ve posted earlier in this thread :wink: ,great PA by the way
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,035
Briosafreak said:
As much as we argue back and forth, it is just a discussion on one forum and I don't think it is important enough to drag it onto another forum.

Quite the contrary Doomsy, just read the first reply by Josh on the BIS boards and then his replies here, if only i could drag him out more times... :wink:
Yep, it was a good talk, actually I respect Josh for showing up and arguing his position.
 

Vault Dweller

Commissar, Red Star Studio
Developer
Joined
Jan 7, 2003
Messages
28,035
Volourn said:
Thanks, RP. 8)
You can't edit the truth with a push of a button, Volourn, we know what you said and we know that you meant ... every ... word!!!! :P :lol:
 

Saint_Proverbius

Administrator
Staff Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2002
Messages
11,855
Location
Behind you.
J.E. Sawyer said:
It wasn't directed at me? So to whom was Mr. Cain referring when he suggested that the interviewer ask all those "other" companies why they use real-time versions of D&D? Let's break it down and look at the contemporary companies who make real-time D&D games. There's Baldur's Gate, which was published by Black Isle, Icewind Dale, which was developed and published by Black Isle, PS: T, which was developed and published by Black Isle, BG: DA, which was published by Black Isle, NWN, which was originally published by Black Isle, and all of the sequels and expansions to those products.

But, I guess you're right; he could have been talking about Atari making D&D Heroes.

I'm not sure Tim Cain was just talking about the contempory ones. Those aside, there have been other game developers who've made real time D&D games. Eye of the Beholder series from SSI and the other games built off that engine. On Interplay's plate, wasn't Descent to Undermountain also real time?

It's still a valid point, though. When you make a turn based game in to a real time video game, you're looking at changing the rules. Even non-RPGs have done this, like the MechWarrior series, the Mech Commander series, and Starfleet Command, SFC2, and SFC: Orion Pirates. It's rather silly to be asked over and over again why you're making a game based on a turn based license in to a turn based video game when that involved fudging things just to get it passable.

I think it's absurd that one person can criticize the design decisions of another game developer and the game developers criticized, directly or indirectly, cannot respond to that criticism without being considered distasteful and inappropriate. Come on. Do I only get to cheerlead?

Defend or criticise, either way, it's still open for others to criticise or defend you for doing it based on what you said in those statements, or is everyone else supposed to cheerlead?

Basically, it boils down to what people agree with. If you said the inability to end combat in ToEE was a bad decision on Troika's part, I'd whole-heartedly agree with you since that choice constantly annoys me in the game. I'm still not sure why you can't end combat when the AI critters refuse to come after you, and you don't want to go after them, and there's no line-of-site.

Huh? I don't remember ever saying that ToEE wasn't what Cain claimed it would be. In fact, I posted on the IPLY forums that it was pretty much exactly what I expected it would be based on what Tim said in interviews.

Actually, it's not what he claimed it would be, since there were several quests and things ripped from the game because Hasbro didn't like those things.

But really, I just can't wait to say, "This is what Fallout fans have been waiting for since TORN!"

Hey, you're stealing my bit!
 

Mr. Teatime

Liturgist
Joined
Jun 25, 2003
Messages
365
I directed that question to J.E, basically because I thought it might get an interesting response!
I hope that things work out so that BIS can announce, then release, VB, I really do. Whilst I generally don't like hyperbole, the things that I've seen tell me that this is the game they're putting everything into and are enduring some harsh conditions for something they see as worthwhile.
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom