Sawyer and ToEE, Troika, BIS and Bio

[DarkUnderlord]

Doomsayer deserved to be attacked and it's about fucking time too. Everyone knows that we he says is pure shit. I skip over his posts when I'm reading a thread, and THEN I have to skip the 5 or 6 following that deal with how much shit he has to say. It pisses me off when I read his shit and see a whole thread go to shit because of it. My personal opinion is that he's an attention seeker and should be banned. He seems to make attempts at making arguments but when the pure stupidity is pointed out, he makes some half-arsed joke. He can't debate for shit and he should stop trying.

A developer can keep submitting less and less buggy versions of games for months and months and months and the publisher could waste a bunch of time past when the developer, who signed a contract with the company, promised to have the game finished.

JE is right. I'm aware of other game houses that have been in the same situation. One situation I vaguely recall even had people reporting bugs which the developers had already fixed well before the game hit the shelves. As they say, games are never finished, they're shipped! (I believe that's a phrase stolen from the movie industry.)

We also have no guarantee that this less buggy build was better. If it is, it'll come out as a patch. However, from Atari's point of view, they had a game that had been tested and believed to work sufficiently. Getting the later build out would have resulted in more testing and a delay, and potentially add nothing overall to the final product. We don't even know WHAT bugs were fixed in this later build either.

nobody forced timmy to K for an 18 month development cycle. atari even gave'em 2 more months. troika still couldn't come through with a game.

Misconception. Troika came through with a game and going by the Circle of Eight's forum count alone, a SHIT LOAD of people like it, a lot more people than Arcanum. We've all played worse (not that I've played ToEE yet, the goddamned Australian release is still another month away). I'm not excusing Troika, obviously I want a bug-free game as much as anyone and I WISH the industry didn't work via 'The Way of the Patch', but it does. The point is, from what I've read, ToEE works for the most part and other than Volourn (who must really be jinxed with the copy from hell) and a few others, I haven't read of many major game-stopping issues.

What do you guys think of this? Is Troika unable to do a good game even if they are experienced,

Arcanum showed that Troika has the ability to make a game with a great story and exceptional interaction via dialogue, but at the price of having a shitty combat system. ToEE, from what I've read, has a fanastic combat system but shitty story.

Going on the basis that Troika now have:
- An RPG engine that's worked for 2 games now (Arcanum & ToEE).
- A turn-based combat system that is widely accepted as great.
- An excellent dialogue system that's being used in 3 games (Arcanum, ToEE and Bloodlines).
- 3D graphics capabilty with features like cloth and so on.
- An experienced team of people THAT AREN'T LEAVING THE COMPANY LIKE RATS.
- Seemingly good management (The men in charge are game programmers and artists).

Unless some cataclysmic event conspires against them, I'd say Troika's next offer will be to die for. Hell, give them another 18 months and let them do another D&D module with 3.5 edition rules. Same system, engine, let them work from the beginning towards a T rating (so content isn't cut) and you'll get a solid game. Provided they don't try too much, the time and capability is there to have good story AND good combat.

and can BIS and Bioware be acquitted of all the blames because they were inexperienced and had other problems during development?

No. I am SICK AND TIRED of the "We have to make shit before we can make great games" argument. JE and various BiS company people have said time and time again that most of the games made between Fallout 2 and Fallout 3 are "shit that has to be made". We've all heard the "what if you had to make shit before you got to make the game you wanted, would you quit then?" line that BiS pulls out of its arse all the time. It doesn't cut it.

Game companies exist to make games. I am a consumer. I don't exist to buy shit. I want to buy GOOD computer games. If you make shit, I'm not going to buy it hoping your next offering will be better. As far as I'm concerned, you can go to hell. If you can't make GOOD GAMES ALL THE TIME, then get the fuck out of the industry. id software's first offerings were good. Commander Keen wasn't shit. Wolfenstein wasn't shit. Hell, Myst was made by a bunch of inexperienced computer first-timer dodo's and that was GREAT! How come some companies out there can make good stuff ALL THE TIME yet others can do nothing but create shit? More importantly, why should I have to buy that shit?

They're trying to sell us the promise that they DO have the capability to make great games. To date, I haven't seen anything that even remotely backs up that claim, especially considering the shit that BiS keeps shovelling. Can a company that's used to producing so much shit, still produce something that's worth buying?

Don't complain so much. It solves nothing and only serves to burden the Troika guys with stress and other sorts of bad feelings. How does that help them make a patch, tell me.

*cough* Since when did we care about the feelings of game developers? Considering all the bad feelings Chucky Ceuvas has right now about his soon to be released Fallout title. Better not burden him with stress, huh? Doesn't exactly help him to make a batter game does it? Seriously, if Volourn has unplayable game stopping bugs, he should list them all up, dot point them, then detail what occurs in each one and when it occurs, detail the system he's running and then let Troika fix them.

That the choice of turn based versus real time based will effect only in a minor degree The quality and sales of the game because there are so many other unrelated factors?

It depends on the game Chris. Real-time Quake will beat turn-based Quake any day of the week. Believe it or not, the combat system is a vital component to a lot of games. Pure combat games rely on it. Make Diablo turn-based and it'd fall over because the game's not designed for a turn-based system. As a real-time game, it works wonderfully. If Arcanum had a better combat system, I'm certain it would have sold better. Likewise one could argue that ToEE's doing great even though the dialogue is lame. Therefore dialogue must be a small part and not worth the effort.

 

[Vault Dweller]

No. I am SICK AND TIRED of the "We have to make shit before we can make great games" argument. JE and various BiS company people have said time and time again that most of the games made between Fallout 2 and Fallout 3 are "shit that has to be made". We've all heard the "what if you had to make shit before you got to make the game you wanted, would you quit then?" line that BiS pulls out of its arse all the time. It doesn't cut it.

Game companies exist to make games. I am a consumer. I don't exist to buy shit. I want to buy GOOD computer games. If you make shit, I'm not going to buy it hoping your next offering will be better. As far as I'm concerned, you can go to hell. If you can't make GOOD GAMES ALL THE TIME, then get the fuck out of the industry. id software's first offerings were good. Commander Keen wasn't shit. Wolfenstein wasn't shit. Hell, Myst was made by a bunch of inexperienced computer first-timer dodo's and that was GREAT! How come some companies out there can make good stuff ALL THE TIME yet others can do nothing but create shit? More importantly, why should I have to buy that shit?

They're trying to sell us the promise that they DO have the capability to make great games. To date, I haven't seen anything that even remotely backs up that claim, especially considering the shit that BiS keeps shovelling. Can a company that's used to producing so much shit, still produce something that's worth buying?.

Uhh, what he said Seriously though, great speech, excellent points. Well done.

 

[Volourn]

Now, that's a great post.

For the record, I have listed a good number of bugs at the Atari boards (and here) along with system specs, and 95% of replies there and 50% replies here (by the 2, or 3 same posters) have been flames and accusation of trolling.

However, it's time for some good news... I think..


For some odd reason,... the game is working again....Don't aks me how, or why; but it is. Yes, there are still lots of bugs; but not major ones like my game crashing at every load screen. What the heck? Grr...

We shall see if it continues...

 

[Sarkile]

More importantly, why should I have to buy that shit?

Exactly! Cause I know those Interplay thugs will smash my kneecaps if I don't run out and buy all of their games upon release!

 

[Vault Dweller]

For some odd reason,... the game is working again....Don't aks me how, or why; but it is.

*eyeing Volourn suspiciously* Well, I'm glad that you stopped sabotaging the game and decided to enjoy it instead. Welcome back!

 

[Volourn]

Eye me suspiciously all you want. I'll eye they game suspiciously.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Lets stop with the eyes now :wink:

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

No. I am SICK AND TIRED of the "We have to make shit before we can make great games" argument. JE and various BiS company people have said time and time again that most of the games made between Fallout 2 and Fallout 3 are "shit that has to be made". We've all heard the "what if you had to make shit before you got to make the game you wanted, would you quit then?" line that BiS pulls out of its arse all the time. It doesn't cut it.

Game companies exist to make games. I am a consumer. I don't exist to buy shit. I want to buy GOOD computer games. If you make shit, I'm not going to buy it hoping your next offering will be better. As far as I'm concerned, you can go to hell. If you can't make GOOD GAMES ALL THE TIME, then get the fuck out of the industry. id software's first offerings were good. Commander Keen wasn't shit. Wolfenstein wasn't shit. Hell, Myst was made by a bunch of inexperienced computer first-timer dodo's and that was GREAT! How come some companies out there can make good stuff ALL THE TIME yet others can do nothing but create shit? More importantly, why should I have to buy that shit?

They're trying to sell us the promise that they DO have the capability to make great games. To date, I haven't seen anything that even remotely backs up that claim, especially considering the shit that BiS keeps shovelling. Can a company that's used to producing so much shit, still produce something that's worth buying?

I think this is a decent point, but does it really need to be stated? Honestly, the last BIS game I've bought/played was IWD, and that was because I was expecting something half-way decent considering all the WARM FUZZIES surrounding them after PlaneScape: Torment. I knew there'd be more of a combat focus, but gah.. What a shit title that was.

So, since BIS was just churning out stuff I wasn't really interested in, I didn't buy it. It wasn't much of a choice, really. I don't like it, I don't buy it. That's pretty simple. If Fallout 3 looks like complete shit, I won't buy it either - even though I'm a huge fan of the first two games. It boils down to this, I'm tired of buying disappointing titles. That's why I completely skipped IWD2, BG2, and Lionheart. I was expecting something a hell of a lot better in Neverwinter Nights, but was sorely disappointed in that one.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I think this is a decent point, but does it really need to be stated?

It does because unlike Bioware, for example, who produces crappy games thinking they are great, BIS produces crappy games being fully aware that they are crap, but considering them a necessary evil which is wrong. Even now they are saying that we have to support or at least don't bitch about FOBoS because they need the revenues to continue working on FO3, but what about money they inwasted in/on this piece of crap in the first place?

 

[EEVIAC]

... not that I've played ToEE yet, the goddamned Australian release is still another month away.

I posted it in another thread but you might have missed it. Atari's .au site is listing a 10th October release date, as is Games Warehouse, with Berlin Wall listing the 6th. So we'll know just how good or bad it is in 10 days, thereabouts.

 

[Volourn]

Sorry, VD, you are wrong.

P.S. Did you expect any other reaction to such silliness?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Sorry, VD, you are wrong.

P.S. Did you expect any other reaction to such silliness?

Sorry, it's Monday, I'm slow, sleepy, 2 shots of coffee didn't kick in yet. Could you repeat that for me? Wrong about what? They are not crappy games? They are crappy but it's all part of the masterplan I'm unaware of? FOBoS didn't cost them a dime but would bring loads of tax-free money? Or am I simply in a perpetual state of being wrong regardless of a topic?

PS. What silliness?

 

[Chadeo]

It does because unlike Bioware, for example, who produces crappy games thinking they are great, BIS produces crappy games being fully aware that they are crap, but considering them a necessary evil which is wrong.

No, I am sure that if you asked the management at BIS/IPLAY what they thought of IWD or FO:BOS or whatever they would not call them “shit”. They would think that they were “products” that have been focused to capture a certain market and make a certain profit. Nothing more, nothing less.

You have a developer from BIS/IPLAY being extremely candid with his feelings on his prior work and his expectations for future work. Personally I think it is rather amazing how close JE is coming to admitting that many prior games were not made for quality, or to advance the genera, but just to turn a buck for the parent company. I guess he is either confident that the suits (his bosses) would never read these boards, or if they did, they would not care because they could care less what this particular group of people think about their products.

In any case I think there are two separate issues here.

First you have a content creator saying that he has had to work on many projects that either were canceled (I can not even imagine how much that would suck) or where his hands were tied as far as how much he could do. Why did he have to work on these projects? Well his stated reason is because his dream was to create a work based off of IP that this company owns, and thus in order to get this prize, he had to put in his time on projects that he did not want. While some of you might not ever do such a thing, and you might doubt his abilities as currently there are no existing example works that prove it, I still think it is completely unfair to criticize him for his actions.

The other situation is one where a seller of content (interplay) had made the choice that innovation and depth are not nearly as important as running after a well known market and milking it for all it is worth. This type of attitude should be vilified and punished as much as possible. Unfortunately, the “unwashed masses” out there will probably buy of FO:BOS in droves, thus causing the content seller to become even more convinced that the need to order their content creators to create more product in that same style. By gamers for gamers my ass.

At best we can hope that they decide to try for two markets at the same time, being smart enough to see that FO:BOS would never have existed if it had not been for the original. I doubt they will have such long term thinking though. The risk of allowing their content creators to spend 2-4 years on work that will not bring back a very high return on investment, until a derivative work is made by a separate team after another 1.5 years, is just going to be too great.

So I guess the moral of this story is that working for a huge publisher/content seller, is a very soul sucking experience. I really hope that you are able to create that game of your dreams JE, and I hope that after totally screwing you out of your last project, the management understands that they had better let you finish this one.

Personally it would be a cold day in hell before I ever let a content seller have any control over my creative process. Even if that meant that my games had to be shareware only, and I only sold 100 copies of them. Having a small number of hardcore, intelligent, fans is far more rewarding that having hordes of sales which might buy the chance to make a slightly hardcode game that may or may not be watered down to get a repeat of those sales.

 

[Vault Dweller]

No, I am sure that if you asked the management at BIS/IPLAY what they thought of IWD or FO:BOS or whatever they would not call them “shit”. They would think that they were “products” that have been focused to capture a certain market and make a certain profit. Nothing more, nothing less.

Isn't that a vague description of every product: focused to capture a certain (sometimes, unfortunately, extremely small) market? What we are talking about is quality of each title. Feargus himself made many comments about IWD series that weren't very positive, so, yes, they were perfectly aware that they are not creating yet another great game but something to fill shelf space. May be it was not their plan, may be all that was necessary for providing funds for Jefferson, but I agree with DU that from my perspective as a consumer that sucks.

Well his stated reason is because his dream was to create a work based off of IP that this company owns, and thus in order to get this prize, he had to put in his time on projects that he did not want. While some of you might not ever do such a thing, and you might doubt his abilities as currently there are no existing example works that prove it, I still think it is completely unfair to criticize him for his actions.

I criticized JE only for making questionable, in my opinion, statements (let's just not go there again, it's all been said and discussed). It would be as ridiculous to criticize him for the past titles' quality as for TB/RT combo in VB: it wasn't up tp him. However, it's fair to criticize Interplay who's made every stupid business decision possible and fucked up everything including its own people.

Unfortunately, the “unwashed masses” out there will probably buy of FO:BOS in droves, thus causing the content seller to become even more convinced that the need to order their content creators to create more product in that same style.

Let's give the unwashed masses some credit. :wink:

By gamers for gamers my ass.

Amen!

 

[chrisbeddoes]

No please stop. Too much thought is overloading my brain.

 

[Volourn]

It does because unlike Bioware, for example, who produces crappy games thinking they are great

That is silliness, and wrong VD; perhaps a rephrasing of it is wrong.

Crap is games like MW, and DS.

Crap is the amount of bugs in TOEE.

Crap is the exuses the fanboys make on behalf of the Troikians.

Crap is the 1% of consumers who think they actually are smarter than the other 99% when they aren't - they just have different tastes.Espicially when these so called smarties continue to purchase the so called crap game from the same so called crap company over, and over again. Not really smart, huh?

 

[JanC]

I don't like it, I don't buy it. That's pretty simple. If Fallout 3 looks like complete shit, I won't buy it either - even though I'm a huge fan of the first two games. It boils down to this, I'm tired of buying disappointing titles. That's why I completely skipped IWD2, BG2, and Lionheart. I was expecting something a hell of a lot better in Neverwinter Nights, but was sorely disappointed in that one.

BG2??????!!!!! What a mistake! That was a really fun game! You are missing out on a real treat if you have never played that. Don't tar it with the same brush as IWD - that was a truly drab and lackluster game. It was also a lot better than NWN which suffered from an extremely shallow plot. How can you call yourself a hardcore RPG fan and never have played BG2?????
PST is a real sacred cow round here isn't it? I'll admit it is one of my favourite games ever, maybe my absolute favourite ever, but get a bit of perspective - it had its faults too. Remember the really boring guy in the Burning Corpse that practically read out the manual of the Planes to you? The repetitive series of fights in Curst? The errand-boy quests? The lack of any really exciting combats?
And as for Fallout, it had bugs everywhere, and stupid followers that shoot you in the back and have no personality. Ian or Sulik are not to be compared to Minsc or Jan Jansen or Edwin in terms of personality (or even AI ;-) ). And yeah, I like the Fallouts better than BG2, but that *still* doesn't mean that the BG series are not enjoyable to play.

Here's my list of the best RPGs ever in order to give you an idea of what I like.
PST
Ultima 6/7/Serpent Isle
Nethack
Fallout 1/2
Adom
Baldurs Gate 1/2

You can get too cynical. No game is perfect. BG2 is not as innovative as PST, but it is an enjoyable game all the same. The combat is a lot more interesting than PST. The graphics are more colourful and quite beautiful. You get to make up your own character.I like to be able to play a female character, which was not an option for PST. It is a huge, epic game where PST was rather short. I prefer PST because it was a whole new experience, but BG2 kept me riveted as well. Give it a go, with an open mind. You won't regret it. The plot is not as deep as PST or Fallout. It is more like Arcanum in depth terms, but still well worth playing.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

And in today's news: rpgcodex initiate makes staggering claims - site regulars prepare flames. More on this as we follow intently!

 

[Vault Dweller]

Ahh, I see, you got me on technicality Although your statement that MW is crap falls under the same category, I wasn't fond of it, so call it all you want. So let's take it slow and rephrase a bit: Bio's games, and by that I mean actual games not tools, are not that great, and range from mediocre (bg2) to crappy (nwn oc) and back to mediocre again (sou), yet Bio's praise them as outstanding achievments, am I wrong? Anyway, this is not about Bio, this is about Iply. Let's agree that they have different attitude toward their games and leave it at that.

Crap is the amount of bugs in TOEE.

Compared to what? NWN? Minesweeper? Fallout? Shit happens, the percentage of people who have game-stopping bug is ...what's 1 divided by 1,000,0000 ...very small, so overall quality is very good, imo.

Crap is the exuses the fanboys make on behalf of the Troikians

Crap is the excuses Volourn makes on behalf on Bio or Crap is the excuses Volourn uses to attack Troika. Seriously, what excuses? You can clearly see that a lot of people are able to play ToEE despite the bugs, you said yoursefl that combat is good, so if they are playing something that is good ('cause it's 90% combat), is it any wonder they like Troika and defend it.Frankly Troika is the only company I have faith in. BlackIsle is yet to deliver what they promised, Bethesda made a Daggerfall theme park and called it Morrrowind, Bio ..well, is Bio, who else is there? SirTech is between the things, so if I want to play commercial rpgs Troika is my only hope.

Crap is the 1% of consumers who think they actually are smarter than the other 99% when they aren't - they just have different tastes.Espicially when these so called smarties continue to purchase the so called crap game from the same so called crap company over, and over again. Not really smart, huh?

First of all, I bought BG1,2, skipped the expansion, bought NWN. I didn't and wouldn't buy other NWN-style games, may be I'll get KotOR, and I'm still waiting to hear from you about quests and dialogues :wink:
Second, what personal tastes got to do with anything? Was BG2 a rpg? No, it was an adventure game, many people don't know any better, they think that playing a marine in a shooter is role-playing because you are rp this guy, etc. Like I said, they don't know better, we do, because we like role-playing, we like Arcanum because it's role-playing, we played pnp because it's role-playing and that's why we can tell the difference, because of our experience not because we are smarter.

 

[Volourn]

Sorry, bub, you failed as soon as youd ecided to call BG2 an adventure game. Please try agiain.

Of course, me saying MW is crap is my opinion. That's exactly my point. Thanks for allowing me that victory.

Sure, BIo praises them as great games. But, they ain't alone - critics, and fans (90%+ of them, anyways) praise them as such as well. Like I said, just because 1% of fans think they're crap doens't make it soe spciially since these fans show their intelligence by continuing to buy crap games from the same crap company. You ar eeven thinking of buying KOTOR which is plainly stupid, imo. You think BIO sucks, so why waste your money? (P.S. side track, I shall do so when ia cually play the game; people are two vague in their deatils; punkasses).

LOL 10 million? Ok, exaggertaion city even worst than me. Face it, the game is extremely buggy. NWN had exactly 5 bugs or so for me; none of them game endangerment; while TOEE literally as countless from the unimportant benign ones to the annoying to the kind that makes me want to break the cd. I ahve never stated that most people have had the problems I had. Inf act, a poll was taken at the Atari. I beleive the number having extreme amounts of crahsing problems was 16-18% last I checked the poll. That's not insignifcant to be sure.

I don't attack Troika. In fact, I like them. I loved Aracnum, I like TOEE, and I look forward to thier next game AFTER Vampire 9as long as they release a patch). No patch from them means the ending of my Troikian days.As for defebnding BIO, well, a slong a speople go overboard in their criticism of them just ebcause they are successful while INORING TOEE's obvious downfalls (ie. pathetic dialogue, patehtic role-playing, & bugs up the wazoo) then I shall. Not to mention, everyone whines about the phat lewt of BIo's games yet they ignore the phat lewt in TOEE. LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

My favorite game companies are BIO, BIS, Troika, Squaresoft, and EA.

All game sfial at role-playing when compared to pnp. Live with it, and move on.

Enjoy. :D

 

[Vault Dweller]

How can you call yourself a hardcore RPG fan and never have played BG2?????

Uhh, because it wasn't a hardcore rpg? Click here for more info http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic ... highlight=

PST is a real sacred cow round here isn't it?

No, what makes you say that?

I'll admit it is one of my favourite games ever, maybe my absolute favourite ever, but get a bit of perspective - it had its faults too.

What game doesn't?

Ian or Sulik are not to be compared to Minsc or Jan Jansen or Edwin in terms of personality (or even AI ;-) ).

I think I'll stick with Ian, thank you very much.

And yeah, I like the Fallouts better than BG2, but that *still* doesn't mean that the BG series are not enjoyable to play.

That depends on your definition of enjoyment.

You get to make up your own character. I like to be able to play a female character, which was not an option for PST.

Well, we are glad that BG2 let you get in tough with your feminine side Seriosily though, you can't praise a game because you can make your own char. The only reason you couldn't do that in PST was because of the story.

It is more like Arcanum in depth terms, but still well worth playing.

Blasphemy!!! You take that back!!! No soup for you! Come back, one year! No, it's not like Arcanum, trust me

And in today's news: rpgcodex initiate makes staggering claims - site regulars prepare flames. More on this as we follow intently!

lol, tonight we are having barbeque!

 

[Sarkile]

Crap is the exuses the fanboys make on behalf of the Troikians.

Crap is the excuses the fanboys make on behalf of the Biowarians. And before you make known your hatred for me, I understand your point that it's all just people's opinions and they have different tastes. At least I hope that was your point.

 

[Volourn]

Hate you? You think too highly of yourself. I don't have any feelings for you at all.

 

[Sarkile]

Does that mean you aren't going to profess your love for me anytime soon?

 

[Volourn]

No. :twisted: