Briosafreak
Augur
This started with an attack by Sawyer on Visceris:
So he then started started throwing a few ideas after Visceris posted this:
So Sawyer replied:
Visceris said “They had the less buggy build before it went goldâ€
So Sawyer went on:
So Gromnir agrees and says "nobody forced timmy to K for an 18 month development cycle. atari even gave'em 2 more months. troika still couldn't come through with a game."
And Sawyer added
So in conclusion i`ll put here and entire post with Sawyer replying to Visceris:
What do you guys think of this? Is Troika unable to do a good game even if they are experienced, and do BIS and Bioware can be aquited of all the blames because they were inexperienced and had other problems during development?
What do you guys think?
You may have noticed that I don't question the sheer ability of other posters' privilege of posting. It has nothing to do with whether the comments are pro-BIS/IPLY or anti-BIS/IPLY. It has to do with your opinion being effectively worthless because it is often illogical and irrational. As I have stated previously, I get more useful feedback out of infrequently reading Saint and Rosh's posts on other forums than I get by reading your posts almost every day.
Let me put it this way: I have no reason to love Atari, or even BioWare for that matter, but seeing you bash them and their products with your nonsensical posts requires even me to step to their defence.
So he then started started throwing a few ideas after Visceris posted this:
Visceris said:Sorry, Troika had a better build before the game went gold but Atari decided to use the buggier build.
So Sawyer replied:
Sawyer said:And you still never question why they did it. It's like not questioning someone after they tell you, "Yeah, I saw $500 laying on the ground, but I decided not to pick it up."
Yes, you are making the distinction between the two groups and assigning culpability based on some of the information you receive, therefore you do care, and you are willfully choosing to ignore things when it suits you to do so. You do this constantly and it is incredibly weak.
A developer can keep submitting less and less buggy versions of games for months and months and months and the publisher could waste a bunch of time past when the developer, who signed a contract with the company, promised to have the game finished.
A professor at my university would map out the due dates for every assignment for the term at the very beginning of the term. If a student handed in his or her paper one minute late, he or she would earn a zero on the assignment, regardless of content. The students were aware of this at the beginning of the term -- and there wasn't even anything in it for the professor.
Culpability belongs to both parties, and acting like it's always the publisher's fault is absurd and willfully ignorant.
Visceris said “They had the less buggy build before it went goldâ€
So Sawyer went on:
Sawyer said:And after that week, they'd probably have another build that's even less buggy. Should they delay release for that one, too?
Do enough consumers feel this way that it's worth three more months of milestone payments? Not usually. Even on the ToEE boards, a lot of people are saying, "Man, there are a bunch of bugs, but I'm still loving it!" That says a lot.
So Gromnir agrees and says "nobody forced timmy to K for an 18 month development cycle. atari even gave'em 2 more months. troika still couldn't come through with a game."
And Sawyer added
Sawyer said:14 months for IWD.
Way to ignore resources used on the project, chief. IWD had a significantly smaller and less experienced team than ToEE did. No lead designer, no lead programmer, no lead artist. Over half of the people working on it had less than a year of professional experience.
And before you even say it, your opinion "as a gamer" doesn't matter in this comparison because this involves only game developers and publishers. If the IWD team of slobbering morons could produce a mediocre game with someone else's engine in 14 months, surely the people at Troika could make a terrific game using their own engine in 18 months, right? It certainly makes sense on paper.
In operation? Ha. Anytime someone tells me that the rules as implemented in the Infinity Engine were "simplistic", I want to have the IE combat loop code in liquid format so I can drown the critic in it.
So explain to me what's wrong with the analysis. The smaller and less experienced IWD team, using someone else's engine, makes a mediocre game in 14 months. What logical reason can you give that a larger, more experienced ToEE team, using their own engine, cannot make a great game in 18 months?
So in conclusion i`ll put here and entire post with Sawyer replying to Visceris:
Doomsayer wrote (View Post):
First off the lesser experience team, although using someone elses engine, was doing any significant changes to the engine itself.
Sawyer:
The code base was unfinished when we got it. We had a hell of lot of work to do on it. The IE is not change-friendly. Please remember that while Tim Cain and Chris Jones had made an entire RPG engine previously (Fallout), BioWare's team had not. The IWD team certainly had not.
Visceris:
Troika had a engine but no where near the level they needed it to be to incorporate 3.5e as fully as they did. Also they complete removed the graphics portion of the engine's coding so that it would work with prerendered backgrounds and 3D artwork. The original Steam Engine was a tile based graphics engine as you know. Also the rules system and how the engine reacts to the rules system in the engine had to be completely and totally retooled.
Sawyer:
By the people who made it, augmented by other experienced programmers.
Visceris:
The end result only things that are the same with Arcanum and ToEE engine wise is just the core behind the scenes mechanics of the engine and thats it. Anything that was is effected by player input was completely and totally redone.
Sawyer:
By the people who made it, augmented by other experienced programmers. The punch line here is that Tim and krew thought it was possible, Atari thought it was possible, but you, "guessing" in hindsight, claim to know better. BTW, at a GDC roundtable attended by a few dozen people, Tim was the most experienced developer in attendance, with over 10 years.
What do you guys think of this? Is Troika unable to do a good game even if they are experienced, and do BIS and Bioware can be aquited of all the blames because they were inexperienced and had other problems during development?
What do you guys think?