Game News Oblivion modders will design Fallout 3 dungeons!

[Rosh]

http://www.joelburgess.com/Design_Root.htm

Amazing how, just like Todd, Joel went from mere Coffee Bitch to a Lead position?

Hmmmm...

http://www.joelburgess.com/full_UT3.htm

This level was created for a friend, Joey Butera. His family operates a recording studio named Avalon, hence the shape of the level. It actually plays pretty nicely, considering the restriction I put on myself of forming the word "avalon"

OMFG! Word levels! Welcome to DOOM! :twisted:

 

[elander_]

LOL Fallout 3 is in the hands of imbeciles and amateurs.

I also thought a "map" was a game content concept, not an in-game feature.

So does the "dungeon" concept. But that comes from D&D games which have to have tons of dungeons in their games and other iconic or traditional features just because the sales department says the game should have. Fallout as gone beyond all those crapy old primitive ideas of rp.

Maybe F3 sales people will give them some freadom considering that the Fallout series is something unique. But they may also think that Oblivion sold so well thay may try to copy-paste some of its features. After all they did brought that Fable good-evil crap and dumbed down the reputation system just atract Fable players.

 

[galsiah]

A dungeon is still something that the character visits in the game world. A map is not. Neither is a level. Such terms don't exist for characters.
What's wrong with "area"?

Also, it rather depends what Volourn meant to refer to in the first place. If he was talking about e.g. The Hub, Shady Sands etc., then clearly "dungeons" makes no sense.
If he meant to refer to Vault 15, The Glow, The military base etc., then it's not a bad word - certainly better than "map", "level" or "area", which don't disclude towns.

It's still not a great word of course, but people have to use something. We can't just say that Fallout transcends game design concepts, and stop talking about it.

I really don't think it's helpful that designers at Bethesda talk about designing "levels" though. I know it's the standard industry term, but it brings to mind the idea of a self-contained area with no connection or influence on or from the outside world. Perhaps that's true of Oblivion dungeons, but it's damn sure not a good thing.

 

[spacemoose]

I just realized that its going to be ~10 years since fallout was released soon. it makes me feel cold and lonely


here is an amusing picture for your time:

 

[elander_]

If he meant to refer to Vault 15, The Glow, The military base etc., then it's not a bad word - certainly better than "map", "level" or "area", which don't disclude towns.

Map is also used in some pnps to represent a playable area (not refering to world maps). In the case of Fallout theres realy no difference between interiors and exteriors. Except for random encounters i think every map is unique and exist for a purpose.

Just as a curiosity a dungeon real meaning is either a central castle tower or the rooms bellow the base of the tower where. This is mostly a single room with a strong door or a trapdoor that is used for turture, as a prison or as a vault to guard precious values.

D&D players later extended the word to any labyrintic undergound system of rooms used for the purpose of dungeon crawling.

I really don't think it's helpful that designers at Bethesda talk about designing "levels" though. I know it's the standard industry term, but it brings to mind the idea of a self-contained area with no connection or influence on or from the outside world. Perhaps that's true of Oblivion dungeons, but it's damn sure not a good thing.

I couldn't agree more. Levels is the most unfortunate name to call those areas. If it was Gothic3 engine we were talking it would be even more confusing since there are no artifical limits and the world is completely seamless. I guess they would just have to call those places what they represent: cities, caves, vaults, mines, military bases, etc, and create a good motive for these places to be there.

I just realized that its going to be ~10 years since fallout was released soon.

And it's still the best.

 

[Bradylama]

Considering Fallout is location-based, it'd be more accurate to call Fallout's design approach Location Design.

 

[Blacklung]

You could call them coordinates, rooms, areas, maps, levels, dungeons, or what the fuck ever. It doesn't matter and everyone with more than two firing neurons can understand that they mean the same damn thing when it comes to video game design. Talk about a pointless argument.

 

[galsiah]

...everyone with more than two firing neurons...

Remind me who is developing Fallout 3 again.

In any case, I disagree with your point. Using any commonly used term brings with it a load of (primarily unconscious) assumptions and baggage. [and it's quite clear that "room", "area" and "dungeon" mean different things in most games in any case]

The term "level" is very often used in games without any interconnection between sections (platformers, FPSs...). When someone says "create a level", the instant impression is of an isolated, stand-alone section. Many years of independent levels from Mario to Doom have reinforced this idea.

If someone says "create an area", there is not that impression of isolation. In fact the instruction is more likely to raise questions about connectivity, and the area's place in the overall game. (at least it should)

Looking at Oblivion, it's fairly clear (though I haven't played it ), that it is possible to create content on a "level" basis, without any regard for its place in the world as a whole. This is true even in an environment where the need for connectivity and cohesion should be clear to anyone "with more than two firing neurons".

Perhaps constant usage of the term "level" isn't to blame for this, but it doesn't help.

Anything which restricts thinking unnecessarily is a bad thing. It's a pointless discussion when talking about a finished game. It is not a pointless discussion when talking about the design of an upcoming game.

The fact that a Betheda designer chooses the phrase "fun level", rather than "interesting/involving/entertaining area" is a bad sign.

It hardly smacks of a wholistic approach to world design, or of an approach to gameplay that goes beyond the immediacy of "fun".


The reasoning seems to be:
Oblivion levels got tired and boring after a while.
Therefore we need to make the levels more fun.

That's far from an encouraging conclusion.

It's up there with:
Hunting for books which provide skill points in Morrowind is boring.
We need to make the hunt faster and more fun!


A few changes in language might not solve many problems, but it might encourage asking a few more important questions. Perhaps the answers will still be flawed, but you can't have everything.


How many times has VD talked about the different "levels" in AoD?
Why do you think that is?

[If the word "level" were never used in any game in any sense again, I'd be one step closer to happiness.]

 

[elander_]

Thats right, developers should start using game design terms for the games they belong. It only shows they are confused and trying to simplify what they don't understand or are trying to confuse people.

However the way to present games evolve so new names have to be created which playable location or area would fit very well and are not tied to how the game is presented. Unfortunatly is guys who usualy have a very weak background on games who decide what to call these things and the names stick when repeated ad nausium in review sites.

I don't see why these obviously incompetent people for doing a Fallout game are working in F3, when Bethesda is full of money and could hire someone with some credits bedsides a guy that worked on the thief series or a guy that did UT maps.

 

[Rosh]

I don't see why these obviously incompetent people for doing a Fallout game are working in F3, when Bethesda is full of money and could hire someone with some credits bedsides a guy that worked on the thief series or a guy that did UT maps.

Three Reasons:

1. In the industry, among real developers, Bethesda's name is SHIT. Worse than EA and Interplay ever was, think about it. Again, back to that "common courtesy" thing we got into a scuffle about. Things like that DO matter, but even with how low Bethesda has become, much as if Interplay circa Herve Caen released a Diablo - Lowest Common Denominator appeal, but no industry respect nor respect towards their own customers, so only the fans adore them while other developers look on in disgust at the whores. It matters among the fans, it matters amoung the developers, and it matters to those who might look to working at a company. That is where Bethesda is now, pandering out to the X-Box with even the "downloadable content of what some modder would do for free if it really had interest", except that you pay for it, planned long before the game is released. That is all Bethesda really cares about, how much it can sell its game with using the least amount of real work. If they can get away with it, as they have with many sites being absolutely enthralled by the graphics and AI brighter than most of them (let's face it, you don't need much intelligence to be part of a press kit repost site that doesn't bother to look for things - or to work in the fast food industry), they don't care if they sell out their integrity.

2. Bethesda has been losing a LOT of talent over the years, mostly the experienced folk, particularly due to their parent company (don't believe the "private company" bullshit, folks, hasn't been true since before 2000), and the only people they can hope to grab are idealistic newbie idiots who believe they can gain industry respect and get into a real design job by working for Bethesda. After all, Todd used to be Lead Coffee Bitch, and look at what a promotion he got ~1999! Emil was just a level designer before, and now he's the Lead Designer! One of the clueless blunders from Bloodrayne 2's school of design also worked on TES for a bit...so now he's the Lead Level Designer! Promotion opportunities abound! The Oblivion credits at Mobygames, and the 90% industry newbie rate with either Oblivion or Morrowind being their only credited experience, speaks quite clearly. Oh, and they're minus the Father of TES (Julian Lefay) and Ken Rolston as well, so...yeah, they had to pick the one guy who did somewhat okay for Oblivion's design and also has a taste for Todd's ass as the new Lead Designer for Bethesda's core design team. About the only "talent" they could manage to hire out for without being blacklisted, is voice acting, and that's usually on a studio fee. The only employees they can get now are hopeless Bethesda fanboys or those without much integrity/hoping to still remain in the industry after most people would look at their resumé, laugh in their face, and point at the door.

3. Those who still are at Bethesda, and have some respectable talent, warn those they have respect for as they wonder what the fuck happened to their company as Todd and Company whore out TES and everything else onto the X-Box, as if it's supposed to magically prove salesworthy with how they keep constantly fucking up TES. It might sell, but for all the wrong reasons. Number one on the list of what's wrong about Fallout 3, is being an Oblivion clone, despite all of their lies. Oblivion had the same crunch for newbies to work on dungeons, towards the later part of it's design.

 

[Cthulhugoat]

Fallout: By moles, for moles.

I bet some of them have played FO2, but no one played the original. Not enough pop culture references and useless places!

 

[elander_]

snip

Well said. To put it simple they are adopting Hollywood tecnhiques and refine them to their worst. Fallout was such a step forward they would have to create a new genre just for this game. Theres probably only two or three people who could do the 3rd episode of the series and do it well. Now only a miracle will make it be an rpg at minimum.

Well at least it will be fun to show all the FPS players that will buy Fallout 3 they were cheated and see them winning like little pigs for being so naive. :twisted:

 

[callehe]

1. In the industry, among real developers, Bethesda's name is SHIT. Worse than EA ....

reading your posts, i get the impression that you are a game developer yourself? how do you know that bethsoft's employees are badmouthing their company? just curious.

 

[Excrément]

it's just a marketing trick, be friendly with the oblivion fan by hiring a oblivion modder who will be responsible for the coffee and you will get the admiration of all these fans.
hire one to sell thousands of fallout copies.

the hired guy should get a sales commission instead of a level designer wage.

P.S : both misinformation campaign have began :
- Bethesda is starting its marketing PR bullshits.
- RPGCodex is reviving its essential Bethesda-hate to ensure its existence.

 

[Limorkil]

I have to say that Bethesda paired with Fallout is a recipe for disaster, at least as far as capturing the essential brilliance of the original game is concerned. (In other words, what you will get might, *might*, be a good game, but it won't be a RPG.)

The "dungeon" design in Oblivion is one of its better points. The landscape/worldspace design was total shit, particularly the Planse of Oblivion, but the dugeons were quite good.

Oblivion/Morrowind modder design is neither a good nor a bad thing. It is really just the same as hiring someone with limited experience. Some of the fan-made designs are brilliant, but a lot of them are either total crap or they are ripped off some other game.

I find that the people that promote themselves the most, i.e. the people most likely to respond to Beth's call, tend to be average at best. The best designers are too busy designing, they don't have time to do constant ESF hype-mongering. I guess this comment is true in the world at large, since wherever you are I bet you see the most successful people being the most flagrant self-promoters and not the people with the talent.

I wouldn't call this another nail in the Fallout coffin, simply because there is no room for more nails. In fact, the entire coffin consists totally of nails.

 

[Baphomet]

Despite all the trash talk in this thread I think it's a good idea. Someone who makes mods in their spare time - let alone someone who does it well - would make a good addition to a game company. People say "only those with credentials should be considered for such a position." A completed, fan-applauded mod qualifies as those credentials.

You have all decided that Fallout 3 is going to suck. The hivemind dictates nothing Bethesda ever does will result with a good entry in the series. So why then do we all keep talking about this shit? You're like that chick who honestly thinks she can change her alcoholic boyfriend, and you're surprised every time he steals your money to get wasted on Smirnoff.

 

[VenomByte]

You have all decided that Fallout 3 is going to suck. The hivemind dictates nothing Bethesda ever does will result with a good entry in the series. So why then do we all keep talking about this shit? You're like that chick who honestly thinks she can change her alcoholic boyfriend, and you're surprised every time he steals your money to get wasted on Smirnoff.

We talk about this shit, because like it or not, how hard Bethsoft rapes the Fallout series with #3 will have a significant effect on the future of RPG's. It's hardly a minor release which can safely be ignored. If a bird shits on your car, you can ignore it. If an elephant does, you have problems.

As for your alcoholic boyfriend reference, please point out ONE occasion where the codex has been remotely surprised that Bethesda has fucked something up royally.

 

[Baphomet]

We talk about this shit, because like it or not, how hard Bethsoft rapes the Fallout series with #3 will have a significant effect on the future of RPG's.

No it won't. Regardless of how this game turns out, the industry will be focused on making millions. And frankly you don't make millions by doing RPGs right. You make millions by appealing to the lowest common denominator. Indie gaming FTW.

As for your alcoholic boyfriend reference, please point out ONE occasion where the codex has been remotely surprised that Bethesda has fucked something up royally.

Nothing kills a joke quite as quick as explaining it.

 

[The Watchman]

Fun thing is the two i know that works at Bethelda, is complete and utter morons. Heck one is about the worst xbox whore iwe seen and funny enough also doubt his ever opened a book.

 

[Briosafreak]

If a bird shits on your car, you can ignore it. If an elephant does, you have problems.

I think I'm going to use this as a motto from now on, thanks

 

[HardCode]

Fun thing is the two i know that works at Bethelda, is complete and utter morons. Heck one is about the worst xbox whore iwe seen and funny enough also doubt his ever opened a book.

Your statement is soooooooo convincing.

 

[jiujitsu]

Fucking dammit...

 

[galsiah]

And frankly you don't make millions by doing RPGs right. You make millions by appealing to the lowest common denominator.

And you miss the obvious point that it is possible in a load of cases to do things right while appealing to the "lowest common denominator" too.

For instance with TES, Bethesda clearly aren't going to take the focus off graphics, since that would harm their LCD appeal.

Here are some quick TES improvements which will not harm LCD appeal (yet Bethesda can't be bothered / aren't competent enough to get right):
Fix the nonsense of the levelling system (I won't repeat myself).
Fix the economy (to an extent - not expecting perfection, but e.g. per-item sale price limits based on level are needlessly stupid).
Fix the level scaling in Oblivion (while losing it completely might harm mass appeal, many games have done just fine with a little more subtlety).
Design areas which make some sense and fit in with the surrounding environment.

Give NPCs and creatures (to an extent) some reasonable motivations / lifestyles.
Either do scripting well, or design a competent AI system. Perhaps RAI could be judged as a "at least they tried" (but failed) situation. However, they clearly failed to give it the resources required to do it properly - though these might have been hard to predict.

Design quests which have meaningful implications and rewards, rather than (eventually) meaningless gold/items/stat boosts etc.
Note that Fallout for the most part did not have huge non-linearity, particularly with respect to the central plot (which would be hard to do). What it had was localized (mostly) consequence that was perceived to be important over the long term by the player - because it made a real difference to the world around him.


Sure, if you point out these issues to a rabid TES fanboy, you'll get a staunch defence of the status quo. However, you could fix them, then talk to the same fanboy and get a staunch defence of the fixes.

There are many improvements that can be made without sacrificing mass appeal. The whole "They can't improve the game since it's targetted at the mass market" argument is just crap.
Most of them aren't exactly resource intensive either. Patching up the worst holes in game mechanics wouldn't take long at all.

Nothing kills a joke quite as quick as explaining it.

Joke? I thought you were simply talking nonsense.


For what it's worth, my mind isn't made up on the Fallout 3 issue. With Oblivion, Bethesda seem not to have bothered to think about design much at all. It's simply shiny Morrowind with a bit of streamlining.
At least with Fallout 3 they'll be forced to re-think things. That's no guarantee they're not going to screw things up of course.

Actually, perhaps there is no hope.

...Fallout had many unique elements for an RPG, including its extensive (and iconic) perk system and darkly comic tone. Will those be present in the sequel?
TH: Oh, yes. Most definitely. "Bloody Mess" is the best perk ever, where your enemies die in ultraviolent ways.

It's just depressing that someone can pick up on a perk that:
Does nothing in gameplay terms.
Takes away the rarity of the more violent sequences, and thus any feeling that they're special.

There again, perhaps it was good PR. Talking about a perk which has some implications for gameplay might have exposed Todd's supreme logical nous.

 

[Baphomet]

Here are some quick TES improvements which will not harm LCD appeal (yet Bethesda can't be bothered / aren't competent enough to get right):
Fix the nonsense of the levelling system (I won't repeat myself).
Fix the economy (to an extent - not expecting perfection, but e.g. per-item sale price limits based on level are needlessly stupid).
Fix the level scaling in Oblivion (while losing it completely might harm mass appeal, many games have done just fine with a little more subtlety).
Design areas which make some sense and fit in with the surrounding environment.

Give NPCs and creatures (to an extent) some reasonable motivations / lifestyles.
Either do scripting well, or design a competent AI system. Perhaps RAI could be judged as a "at least they tried" (but failed) situation. However, they clearly failed to give it the resources required to do it properly - though these might have been hard to predict.

All this stuff is nice. The items on the list won't make Oblivion into an RPG, but it would make Tamriel a more realistic game world.

Design quests which have meaningful implications and rewards, rather than (eventually) meaningless gold/items/stat boosts etc.

That's gold right there. The essence of an RPG done right. Now here's the real question - does this appeal to the gamer community at large? I honestly don't think so. Hence, the process of making a real RPG is incompatible with the process of making a blockbuster game which sells millions of copies.

There are many improvements that can be made without sacrificing mass appeal. The whole "They can't improve the game since it's targetted at the mass market" argument is just crap.

What I said (and what you quoted) is that an RPG "done right" will fail to reach blockbuster sales. The Codex has examined what makes an RPG "done right" numerous times. What stands out seems to be this: 1) decisions that are free from the subjectivity of good and evil, 2) decisions that impact the game world, and 3) decisions that are consequent upon previous decisions the player has made. Tell me with a straight face that you can see marketing specialists establish branding based on a game's awesome decisions. No matter how you improve the core experience of your example, Oblivion, the player's most important decision will always be in what order he or she will experience game content.

Joke? I thought you were simply talking nonsense.

I see you're British. This is too easy, so I'll pass.

 

[suibhne]

Design quests which have meaningful implications and rewards, rather than (eventually) meaningless gold/items/stat boosts etc.

That's gold right there. The essence of an RPG done right. Now here's the real question - does this appeal to the gamer community at large? I honestly don't think so. Hence, the process of making a real RPG is incompatible with the process of making a blockbuster game which sells millions of copies.

I don't think that's the issue. People would still probably flock to Oblivion if it had great quest design with meaningful alternate choices and long-term gameworld consequences; they might even like it more. The problem imo is that these things take a lot of development time, and no company is going to fund time-intensive features which are, at the end of the day, basically optional: the market is so ignorant of what's possible, so tolerant of poor game design, that nobody seems to notice the absence of this stuff.