Game News Oblivion modders will design Fallout 3 dungeons!

[serch]

FALLOUT 3: JUST FOR TEH LOLLERZ

 

[galsiah]

...Forget about memorable locations that make you go "wow" that are nice and big and have lots to explore. Oh no, you'll be dealing with over 500 locations no more than 5 minutes apart that are all of 3 rooms big and have no meaning what-so-ever.

One of the main reasons I disliked Oblivion....

More on topic, as someone noted above, the Oblivion modders actually produced better results than the staffers themselves so this is ultimately a good thing.

While I agree that Morrowind and Oblivion modders do a much better job than Bethesda, that's with the creative freedom to do what they want.

Individual level designers on Fallout 3 aren't going to have much say in how things fit together, or on the overall significance of their areas. As far as I know, that's what's missing from Oblivion (haven't played it): the individual dungeons are much better than Morrowind's, but still lack any significance / interesting backstory etc.

That needs to be improved on a higher level than individual level design.
Given that game world coherence seems to get vanishingly little attention at Bethesda, I'm not holding my breath.

 

[Trash]

No matter how well the dungeons will be designed, I seriously doubt fo3 will be a worhty succesor. If only because fallout is more about roleplaying than about hack and slash dungeon exploration.

Still, after having lost all hope for another great fallout, I do hope they'll at least manage to create a fun post apoc game. (though I still can't figure out why they wanted that (fuck what's the word, copyright?) so badly?)

 

[Chinese Jetpilot]

It's not something I consider good or bad. I considered Oblivion's dungeons to be one of its stronger -- perhaps strongest -- point. They greatly captured the atmosphere of a dungeon/cave, and some were quite polished. Anyway, I didn't have a problem with Oblivion's dungeon designers, and I think they did a great job. The problem was that there were dozens, if not over a hundred of them; most of them offering nothing but leveled loot and stocked with the same enemies.

I happen to think Bethesda is stocked full of talented people; they're just led by those who believe in mainstreamed game design. Who doesn't think Fallout 3 will be closer to Oblivion than Fallout 1/2 (game engine aside)? And honestly, why wouldn't they?

Someone at Bethesda had to know that the Fallout universe is an absolute gold-mine waiting to be tapped, if you can properly mainstream it. That's why they bought it. I don't think they spent that money so they can publish another "Call to Cthulu". You got big guns, you got sleazy women, you got mutants, robots, and beasts in a post-apocalytpic game setting with POWAH AMAH. Just make it a FPS-RPG, and that kind of shit sells itself (and yes, I know Interplay tried with FO:BOS, but Interplay ddin't know shit about delivering the kind of game that would appeal to a mass market).

So until I see a dramatic shift in design philosophy among the upper echelon of Bethesda, they could bring in Sid Meier or Tim Cain for all I care, and I'd still think the game would be a pile of shit.

 

[Excalibur]

this is bullshit..... uhhh we now know that beth is using the Oblivion engine.. and that its going to most likely be a clone in a falloty atmosphere...

 

[galsiah]

...they're just led by those who believe in mainstreamed game design. Who doesn't think Fallout 3 will be closer to Oblivion than Fallout 1/2 (game engine aside)? And honestly, why wouldn't they?

Sure, but that's a false choice.
It assumes that you can't make a game with mainstream appeal which also exhibits good design.

In some areas there are clear mainstream vs. codex tradeoffs. In those areas it's to be expected that they'll go for the mainstream. There are also many areas where a touch of good codex-pleasing design wouldn't bother mainstream gamers at all.

For instance, take the issue of coherent dungeon placement, design and significance.
It's not something the mainstream gamer cares too much about - though many would consider it a plus. It's certainly something that can be done properly without sacrificing any mainstream appeal.

All that's needed is a bit of thought to answer the following kind of questions: Why is it there? Why is it set out as it is? How did the inhabitants (if any) come to be there? How do they live now? How do they fit in with the surrounding area? What is their attitude towards passers-by? Towards the player character? How does any of this relate to quests / plot?...

Compared to the time taken in designing layout and models etc., the above would be insignificant. Personally I think I'd find it helpful as input for dungeon design decisions - it's easier to decide how things should be laid out if you can say why they're like that.

This isn't a mainstream vs. "hardcore" tradeoff - it's something that Bethesda simply haven't bothered to get right.


There are areas - e.g. character creation/levelling, levelled opposition -, where I think their design sucks horribly, but there might be an argument in terms of satisfying the mainstream gamer (though I'm not sure I buy it).

Other areas - e.g. consistently idiotic, broken economy - just imply a "Sure, the world is total nonsense, but seriously - who cares!? For us, immersion is about watching grass blow in the wind." approach to design.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

Didn't they hire a load of modders for oblivion? some combat guy and dungeon fellers....fucking disaster.

 

[Chinese Jetpilot]

...snip

I think you're right on all your points. I do think its possible to make a game appealing to the mainstream market while also possessing the qualities that discerning gamers look for. However, I think its a very rough road, and few developers are capable (or willing) to traverse it, so they -- far more often than not -- take the easier route by just aiming towards the mainstream market (because at least they'll make some money).

 

[Grandpa Gamer]

Most of the things the Codex wants from a game can be accompliced without sacrificing any mainstream appeal.

But I think it's too much work for Beth and most developers, since mainstream appeal can be attained without bothering to cater for the Codex.

Why would they bother with a bunch of extremist whiners who hate them anyway,eh?:wink:

 

[galsiah]

Sure, but some codex desires - e.g. non-linearity; rich, diverse dialogue etc. - would take a lot of time and effort to get right.
At least in such areas there's a pragmatic "We can't afford the development time to do that" argument.

What annoys me is cases where there's no mainstream vs codex tradeoff, and solving a problem really is simple. Even then they frequently can't be bothered to do things properly - simply because most gamers wouldn't care.

For example, take the limits on item sale price in Oblivion. It's one tiny system that'd take a couple of hours to get right. It's 100% obvious that the system they have is both utter nonsense, and does nothing to help gameplay. This was obvious from the time some nutter stuck it in a design document (or proposed it as an inspired improvement) until the game shipped. Yet there's no attempt to find anything better.

I really can't imagine what they were thinking.

 

[Grandpa Gamer]

What annoys me is cases where there's no mainstream vs codex tradeoff, and solving a problem really is simple. Even then they frequently can't be bothered to do things properly - simply because most gamers wouldn't care.

I agree, of course.
Some things are not costly or even hard to do. For instance, the persuasion system must be the worst feature in Oblivion. No persuasion system at all would have been infinitely preferable as well as costing no money and no effort. They must have known it was a stinker, but didn't bother to do it right or remove it.

 

[Nutcracker]

I dont know, from what we've seen the intellectual quality of Bethesda employees is sadly lacking, and it starts right from the top.

 

[kris]

Stop complaining, I am sure they will have many a death claw dungeon, think about all the content! and how beautiful they will look on the screenshots they will release.

 

[Micmu]

They need SEVERAL "designers" to make their dungeons ... again? Like that oblivious bullshit with more than 8 people working on dungeons for 2 years...
And the end result were 200 unrelated copy/paste dungeons with randomized PClevel+C monster/loot spawn spots.

 

[psycojester]

So how many weeks do you think it'll be before they start putting boobies on the death claws?

 

[Jim Kata]

Oh look an abandoned military base... and another... and another... oh look I killed the mutant leader at level 1.

It's all set in one city, too...how many abandoned military bases and subterrainian areas can there be?

 

[Jim Kata]

...they're just led by those who believe in mainstreamed game design. Who doesn't think Fallout 3 will be closer to Oblivion than Fallout 1/2 (game engine aside)? And honestly, why wouldn't they?

Sure, but that's a false choice.
It assumes that you can't make a game with mainstream appeal which also exhibits good design.

In some areas there are clear mainstream vs. codex tradeoffs. In those areas it's to be expected that they'll go for the mainstream. There are also many areas where a touch of good codex-pleasing design wouldn't bother mainstream gamers at all.

For instance, take the issue of coherent dungeon placement, design and significance.
It's not something the mainstream gamer cares too much about - though many would consider it a plus. It's certainly something that can be done properly without sacrificing any mainstream appeal.

All that's needed is a bit of thought to answer the following kind of questions: Why is it there? Why is it set out as it is? How did the inhabitants (if any) come to be there? How do they live now? How do they fit in with the surrounding area? What is their attitude towards passers-by? Towards the player character? How does any of this relate to quests / plot?...

Compared to the time taken in designing layout and models etc., the above would be insignificant. Personally I think I'd find it helpful as input for dungeon design decisions - it's easier to decide how things should be laid out if you can say why they're like that.

This isn't a mainstream vs. "hardcore" tradeoff - it's something that Bethesda simply haven't bothered to get right.


There are areas - e.g. character creation/levelling, levelled opposition -, where I think their design sucks horribly, but there might be an argument in terms of satisfying the mainstream gamer (though I'm not sure I buy it).

Other areas - e.g. consistently idiotic, broken economy - just imply a "Sure, the world is total nonsense, but seriously - who cares!? For us, immersion is about watching grass blow in the wind." approach to design.

Those things take talent, and bethesda just does not have that commodity.

 

[don_tomaso]

Oh look an abandoned military base... and another... and another... oh look I killed the mutant leader at level 1.

It's all set in one city, too...how many abandoned military bases and subterrainian areas can there be?

W00t? Where have you heard that? source , plz!!

 

[kris]

Oh look an abandoned military base... and another... and another... oh look I killed the mutant leader at level 1.

It's all set in one city, too...how many abandoned military bases and subterrainian areas can there be?

a "city" with 5 inhabitants staring at a wall. But they do at least talk with each other.

"Have you heard of the deathclaw problems?"
"Yes, terrible creatures"

 

[Dmitron]

Wonder how the FPS perspective will alter gameplay.. (I doubt it'll be Oblivion Isometric.)

 

[Nael]

And the end result were 200 unrelated copy/paste dungeons with randomized PClevel+C monster/loot spawn spots.

Yeah, we could only hope for so much. Most likely they'll completely ignore one of the lessons they should've learned and stick with scaled encounters.

 

[MacD]

I don't have such a problem with Fallout 3 using the modded Oblivion engine (this has beeen known for a while now), although it will change a strategic game into a twitchfest.

I have no problem with Beth trying to hire more talented level designers (god knows they need them...the dungeons in Oblivion looked cool...but they were soulless and after you wnet into the third one you'd seen them all).

What's my biggest problem with Beth doing Fallout 3 is the characters. For me Fallout (2) was an amazing game world (which Beth can pull off, with some designers who get to build to their imagination...shame they need to use level sets...that's a very wrong move...better to have less 'dungeons', but have more variety and individuality in those settings; more 'wow, I haven't seen this before and it's cool!' than 200 generic settings) filled with oh-so-memorable charactrs. Funny, cool, diverse and interesting characters. Robodogs, mutant freaks, barbarians (which we'll of course see in F3...but there'll be very little innovation, is my guess, proving Beth doesn't get the point).
But Beth just does not do memorable characters; they all blend together into one big mesh of 'meh, fodder'. Part of it is dialogue...beth can do backstory, but memorable dialogue, not so much. Part of it is their kit mentality; they have so few one-off characters, they're all built from the same parts, that there's little to no visual differences between one and the other character.
It's as I said above about the level design...Beth makes a good business case for using modular kits...but in terms of pure gameplay fun and thrill, it's better to have a few cool and memorable locations/characters than a large amount of cookiecutter ones. Ideally you have a large base of plebs/standard cityblocks with cool characters/locations in there...but that costs money.

 

[Dmitron]

...but that costs money.

...but that costs year end bonuses and company outings

 

[Ladonna]

Don't worry Mac, I am sure you will get all these things every week with a Bethesda Fucking Mini mod TM.

 

[WTF]

So the level designer for Oblivion is now lead level designer for Fallout 3?

Oblivion had some of the most uninspiring, repetitive and dull 'dungeons' I've ever had the misfortune to play through. God help Sellout 3

 

[sheek]

Un-fucking-believable...

Hey guys leave spot open ill be available in a few years. Im only 14 and im making mods and already doin 3d meshing with 3d studio and such. Ill be looking for this kind of job in a few years.

Lol