OBLIVION GERMAN VIDEO!!!

[Mech]

So, just because it's common practice, that means they shouldn't be called on exagerations and outright misinformation?

Yes, it's called life. A true horror, I know.

 

[Lumpy]

Nobody would complain about boots if there were boots for beast races at all.

 

[Sabregirl]

So, just because it's common practice, that means they shouldn't be called on exagerations and outright misinformation?

Yes, it's called life. A true horror, I know.

So it's shut up and take it, I see, that's obviously made life/games better in the past . . . it's a very helpful thing to do.

@Nog Robbin- Who says you need to have humans in the game at all? I'm tired of lookin at them anyway. OR you make a special set of armor/weapons only Mr. tentacle could wear . . . you know choices, consequences . . . gee we could do that with RACES. What a concept.

-S

 

[Dreagon]

Nobody would complain about boots if there were boots for beast races at all.

And thats where this idiotic idea of "balance" comes into play. Why do all races have to be "equal"? Why can't some have disadvantages? Why do they all have to wear friggen boots if their feet don't work with boots? Its the same thing that gets skills chopped out because some moron thinks some skill isn't "equal" to the others and thinks they need to be "balanced". Ruins more games.

 

[Tintin]

Nobody would complain about boots if there were boots for beast races at all.

And thats where this idiotic idea of "balance" comes into play. Why do all races have to be "equal"? Why can't some have disadvantages?

Because that would be stupid. All races should have advantages and disadvatages and yes, they should all balance. Give up one advantage in order to have the other. If one race beats all the rest everyone would just choose that race.

 

[Dreagon]

Nobody would complain about boots if there were boots for beast races at all.

And thats where this idiotic idea of "balance" comes into play. Why do all races have to be "equal"? Why can't some have disadvantages?

Because that would be stupid. All races should have advantages and disadvatages and yes, they should all balance. Give up one advantage in order to have the other. If one race beats all the rest everyone would just choose that race.

Wow, that is the stupidest thing I have read in a long time. It's a single player game, what difference does it make if a lot of people prefer the "stronger" race, as long as others of us can challenge ourselves with playing races that are actually different? There is absolutely no reason at all they have to balance, same with skills. As a matter of fact, having skills and races that are actually different in power would go a long way in improving rpgs. It would make it easier to add more skills since the dev doesn't have to worry about tweaking each skill to balance, AND it would actually give a better more lifelike similation. This idea of "balance" in a single player game is one of the more retarded concepts that is ruining a lot of games. The problem is too many morons who just uncritically accept that balance is always a good thing without actually applying a little thought to the matter.

 

[Sabregirl]

Nobody would complain about boots if there were boots for beast races at all.

Or if Bethesda had allowed beast races to do direct damage with hand 2 hand and NOT the human races. That would've been a fair trade don't you think?

As it was there was no advantage to balance the lack of boots/full helms and people are going to tend to NOT play a "crippled" race. But the stupid thing was, you could get so ridiculously Uber in MW it didn't matter anyway . . . People were just whining about not being able to wear the boots of blinding speed. But now, with Oblivion we're stuck with even MORE sameness and the argies are ugly as hell . . .

-S

 

[Tintin]

As a matter of fact, having skills and races that are actually different in power would go a long way in improving rpgs.

That's true. Having strong races one weak races is an amazing idea. It would make gameplay so much more fulfilling. Characters would be forced to make really hard decisions, like:

"Hmmm, which should I chose. The strong race or the crappy race? GOD SO HARD TO CHOOSE. Which which which? The strong guys or the weak guys? HMMM....."

Instead of making stupid decisions like having to give up one advantage in order to have another. That's just silly. Real decisions are about choosing if you want to be strong or weak. HMMM...

 

[Levski 1912]

Because that would be stupid. All races should have advantages and disadvatages and yes, they should all balance. Give up one advantage in order to have the other. If one race beats all the rest everyone would just choose that race.

Balance ruins single-player games. This is somewhat off-topic, but the Total War series (and especially Rome) many of the factions were either stronger or easier to play. Well, why would you choose Numidia (which starts in the desert with a shit army), over Parthia (starts in the rich East)? For the challenge, silly. Not everyone is a powergamer.

 

[Tintin]

Not everyone is a powergamer.

And of course, having one race that's stronger than all the rest is the way to do that! Pure genius! Crisis averted!

Sheesh, Levski, in your haste to sound like a collage of every single Codexer here you should make sure to read over your posts.

 

[Drakron]

Wow, that is the stupidest thing I have read in a long time. It's a single player game, what difference does it make if a lot of people prefer the "stronger" race, as long as others of us can challenge ourselves with playing races that are actually different?

Because gameplay sould be balanced by default.

By your train of logic then its ok to not wear any equipment at all or make a low mana character only use spells or never save the game EVER.

By making the beast rares not able to use two pieces of equipment they made those races inferiors unless they had some advantage to negate that loss, the argument "playing with X race sould be HARD mode" is flawed.

 

[Dreagon]

Wow, that is the stupidest thing I have read in a long time. It's a single player game, what difference does it make if a lot of people prefer the "stronger" race, as long as others of us can challenge ourselves with playing races that are actually different?

Because gameplay sould be balanced by default.

Why? This "by default" position is exactly what I'm talking about. It's just another way of saying uncritical acceptance

By your train of logic then its ok to not wear any equipment at all or make a low mana character only use spells or never save the game EVER.

Or even have some charactors not allowed to use weapons too big for them, or wear armor to small for them, or GOSH even have some races have better vision than others, or weapons that do different damage than others.

By making the beast rares not able to use two pieces of equipment they made those races inferiors unless they had some advantage to negate that loss, the argument "playing with X race sould be HARD mode" is flawed.

There is nothing flawed about the argument. The argument is sound. There is no actual reason for all races to be "equal" other than the developers sense of aesthetics.

 

[Mech]

So, just because it's common practice, that means they shouldn't be called on exagerations and outright misinformation?

Yes, it's called life. A true horror, I know.

So it's shut up and take it, I see, that's obviously made life/games better in the past . . . it's a very helpful thing to do.

It surely didn't make games any worse. Whether you voice your complaint, or you don't say anything at all, you have absolutetly no affect what so ever. You, me, and everyone else's opinions are worthless. Better get used to the fact now, before you head out into the real world.

 

[Dreagon]

It surely didn't make games any worse. Whether you voice your complaint, or you don't say anything at all, you have absolutetly no affect what so ever. You, me, and everyone else's opinions are worthless. Better get used to the fact now, before you head out into the real world.

And of course you are such a devotee of this belief that you come to an entirely different forum to offer your opinions to a bunch of people who have the nerve to not be fanboys. Nah, it's not important to you at all :wink:

 

[Drain]

Compare two types of games: 1) Games where choices have advantages and disadvantages with no clearly superior choises, which makes you weight all alternatives carefully
2) Games where one of the alternatives is superior to the others, so that you either play a railed path choosing optimal strategy or intentionally choose suboptimal strategy
Which one is more fun to play?

 

[obediah]

Not everyone is a powergamer.

And of course, having one race that's stronger than all the rest is the way to do that! Pure genius! Crisis averted!

Sheesh, Levski, in your haste to sound like a collage of every single Codexer here you should make sure to read over your posts.

I can't think of any good reason why all races and classes need to be balanced in a real SP rpg. Fuck little Tintin and his neurotic need to choose the most powerful character build every play through a game. As he is well aware, not everyone is balanced in the real world, and he proves that even the most undergifted of us can delude themselves into thinking they lead a meaningul existence.

Simple combinatorics prove that balance is impossible for all but the smallest number of character builds. Even worse you tend to make balancing possible, you don't get anything new or unique. Either all of your classes are functionaly equivalent, or you use the same old skills and abilities that have been used a thousand times before and have some established rules of balance. I'd trade 3 balanced builds for millions of unbalanced builds with widely different playstyles any day.

 

[Mech]

It surely didn't make games any worse. Whether you voice your complaint, or you don't say anything at all, you have absolutetly no affect what so ever. You, me, and everyone else's opinions are worthless. Better get used to the fact now, before you head out into the real world.

And of course you are such a devotee of this belief that you come to an entirely different forum to offer your opinions to a bunch of people who have the nerve to not be fanboys. Nah, it's not important to you at all :wink:

That doesn't make much sense, since I couldn't care less if you believe, or like my opinon at all.
Just like you though, what I say is pointless, so I suppose I shouldn't even bother saying it since it is rather hypocritical. But since I got nothing better to do and no one else can understand the fact that what they say is pointless, it's worthwhile for the mundane enterainment such pointlessness brings.

 

[Sabregirl]

It surely didn't make games any worse. Whether you voice your complaint, or you don't say anything at all, you have absolutetly no affect what so ever. You, me, and everyone else's opinions are worthless. Better get used to the fact now, before you head out into the real world.

Bethesda made beast races playable largely due to complaints from forumites. Besides, if our opinions make absolutely no difference then why do developers bother coming here? Why should they care? Maybe some of the people here have legitamate concerns??? Granted I think it's very RARE for fans (or just angry observers) - forum or otherwise to actually have an effect but what's the point of running around to different forums (which are primarily for discussing/analysing things) and saying "shut the hell up" which seems to be your primary argument for everything. What's the point in that?

I have to agree with drain on race balancing. It's always better to make different options rather than better and crap options. Sure you *can* purposefully play something that's more difficult OR you could just amke an alternate way of doing things for another race.

-S

 

[Mech]

It surely didn't make games any worse. Whether you voice your complaint, or you don't say anything at all, you have absolutetly no affect what so ever. You, me, and everyone else's opinions are worthless. Better get used to the fact now, before you head out into the real world.

Bethesda made beast races playable largely due to complaints from forumites. Besides, if our opinions make absolutely no difference then why do developers bother coming here? Why should they care? Maybe some of the people here have legitamate concerns??? Granted I think it's very RARE for fans (or just angry observers) - forum or otherwise to actually have an effect but what's the point of running around to different forums (which are primarily for discussing/analysing things) and saying "shut the hell up" which seems to be your primary argument for everything. What's the point in that?

I have to agree with drain on race balancing. It's always better to make different options rather than better and crap options. Sure you *can* purposefully play something that's more difficult OR you could just amke an alternate way of doing things for another race.

-S

Oh no, im definitly not telling you to shut up. You can say as much as you want, for as long as you want. I just think it's a complete waste of time and I find it funny when people get all upset and try to make a difference despite the fact they never will, and are living in false hope that someone cares what they think. :D
BTW, "Bethesda made beast races playable largely due to complaints" No they didn't. Don't disillussion yourself and think that. It just happened to coincide with what the developers felt they should do.

 

[Tintin]

Fuck little Tintin and his neurotic need to choose the most powerful character build every play through a game.

I see. By saying that I don't want character builds that are more powerful then the rest, that obviously means I want to choose the most powerful character build. Obviously.

And when those other guys here are saying that there should be motives for specialization, that's because they all have neurotic needs to be uber-strong powergamers too.

I see.

Carry on then.

And where the hell did all the "choice and consequence" crap go? What exactly is the big choice in "do i chose the strong guy or the weak guy". If you have balanced but different races and advantages, that's a real choice.

As he is well aware, not everyone is balanced in the real world, and he proves that even the most undergifted of us can delude themselves into thinking they lead a meaningul existence.

UH OH BIG WORDS

 

[Zomg]

Nethack and ADOM do pretty well with intentionally varied class power. Permadeath changes the nature of balance, though.

 

[John_Blazze]

Tintin is right here, i thought its obvious what he said ........now i see its not

 

[Section8]

Nobody would complain about boots if there were boots for beast races at all.

You'd think that, but you'd probably get "y cant i wear teh kajits helm of catness?" from people playing non-khajiit characters. Or "y cant i wear tail amror? I dont have a tail but it would luk kewl!11!"

 

[Solik]

Balance is absolutely required for single-player games. Otherwise, the choices are uninteresting. Even worse, your preferred playstyles may likely be gimped, even to the point of unplayability. A lot of good having a lot of options does you if you really want to play a stealthy character, but stealthy characters are so vastly inferior that you can't get very far with one, and the gameplay is more frustrating than fun.

Choosing your difficulty level should not in any way be the same choice as the style of play.

Moreover, you should not be forced to suffer through excessively frustrating gameplay because of roleplay decisions.

Choice with consequence, but the consequence should make sense and be fun, or the choice is already made for you.

 

[Zomg]

Balance is absolutely required for single-player games. Otherwise, the choices are uninteresting.

This is a bit semantic, but balance has too broad a meaning to use it in pat statements like that. Imagine you have a game where you can choose to be either an adult or a child in a modern setting - clearly, the adult is "more powerful", but that doesn't mean being a child will be "unbalanced" or unfun. Obviously that's a somewhat esoteric example, but take ADOM for another - it has class/race combinations that make certain sections of the game more or less difficult (ex: Troll Healers start very strong but have many problems towards the end, while Dragonmen have special concerns with certain parts of the game). In particular, many race/class combinations have wildly different versions of the early game to contend with, with extremely disparate levels of initial power.

So, anyway, unlike in a multiplayer game, in a single player game builds don't need to be balanced according to some gross "XP per hour" or "group role" standard, but rather they just have to be interesting. If it takes a thief three hours to navigate a dungeon by sneaking, climbing, picking locks and ambushing, while a tankish warrior can plough through in one hour, that's not an indication that the thief is unbalanced in and of itself.