The difficulty in Oblivion.

Mr. Teatime · Mar 24, 2006

Has anyone else noticed the stupidity of the game's difficulty, or more specifically, levelling system? You can complete the game at level 1 with the rusty sword you find in the tutorial dungeon.
EVERYTHING in the game is scaled to your level. Leave the tutorial zone and travel to the other side of the map and enter that big bad looking fortress, and the monsters will all be level 1 and you'll be able to kill everything in the dungeon. The game gets HARDER if you level up, because monsters automatically get better and better gear whereas you, as the player, have to constantly search for gear upgrades to stay ahead of the game.
What's the point of levelling at all?
Good question.

In fact the only reason I can see to level is that there are some 'you are not high enough level to accept this quest' quests. Usually that is put in because the quest will involve some big, nasty monsters, but in this game that's not true. That message is put there simply because the developers don't want you to see all the game's content at level 1, despite the fact that any level 1 player is completely able to kill anything that may be in his path, right up to and including all of the game's main quest.
So much for immersion...

Higher Game · Mar 24, 2006

One would think that Final Fantasy 8 would teach every developer to never make monsters stronger over time. Even Ultima III could have done without it. The focus goes completely on equipment. It punishes players who go out for casual, fun quests instaed of p0w3rg4murz who go loot hunting. It makes the game like an *shudder* MMORPG.

RK47 · Mar 24, 2006

Just a quick question. Comparing Melee to Magic types...is Magic gonna be the same old boring Morrowind stuff or is there something new for the combat system?

Most of the hype with the combat seems to be the melee and I Haven't heard anything much on Magic.

Micmu · Mar 24, 2006

There's a difference between scaling monsters UP or above your level when you're tougher, but scaling them DOWN so you can beat everything...
That's one of the stupidest design decisions ever. The only stupider thing I can think of is constant spawning behind your back in Dungeon Lords.

Blahblah Talks · Mar 24, 2006

RK47 said:
Just a quick question. Comparing Melee to Magic types...is Magic gonna be the same old boring Morrowind stuff or is there something new for the combat system?

Most of the hype with the combat seems to be the melee and I Haven't heard anything much on Magic.

From what I've read, Magic is more effective in combat than Melee, but I think this is mostly because it is usually a ranged attack. I've also heard that the spell effects can obliterate your frame rate.

Regarding levelled monsters, I was under the impression that not everything was on a levelled list. IOW, there are level 20 monters around (somewhere) at the beginning of the game. Is this not true?

I think the best solution is to have levelled lists, but with a minimum and maximum levels for most areas. When you visit the Dangerous Mountains of Doom, the lowest level creature should be level 10. When walking in the woods near the Capital, the max level should be level 10. That way, challenge is preserved (you still get a challenging encounter in the Mountains when you're level 50) but immersion is not broken (there are no gold dragons hanging out right outside the city.

Saint_Proverbius · Mar 24, 2006

Higher Game said:
One would think that Final Fantasy 8 would teach every developer to never make monsters stronger over time. Even Ultima III could have done without it. The focus goes completely on equipment. It punishes players who go out for casual, fun quests instaed of p0w3rg4murz who go loot hunting. It makes the game like an *shudder* MMORPG.

Sacred actually does a fairly decent job at scaling level to the player, but that's primarily because the level scales are limited based on the area where the creatures are. That includes both upper and lower level boundries for the areas. Yes, there will be areas in Sacred that are too tough for your character because of this, and yes there will be areas that your character won't be scratched in because the monsters are too low level to actually harm you. That's the way it should be. If you can trounce a horde of Shaddar'Rim, then those lowly goblins near Bellevue shouldn't be able to do much to you.

However, this system still provides a decent amount of challenge in those given areas that are suited for your character because the monsters are close to your level.

Why Bethesda couldn't figure out what Ascaron did considering Bethesda are supposedly SUPER DUPER RPG MAKERS and Ascaron is fairly new at making CRPGs is beyond me. Then again, Bethesda is made up from people from Maryland, who are mostly communists. They believe in communist things like equality of outcome, and that makes them stupid.

Micmu · Mar 24, 2006

From what I've read, Magic is more effective in combat than Melee

Or course it is, mana regenerates way too fast, much faster than in Diablo II with level 100 Sorceress. And at top of that, casting time (and delay between castings) is minimal.

Jed · Mar 24, 2006

Maybe TES V will just have a dialog that pops up when you start the game:

WIN?
[yes]
[no]

WouldBeCreator · Mar 24, 2006

Jed said:
Maybe TES V will just have a dialog that pops up when you start the game:

WIN?
[yes]
[no]

Brilliant. Maybe they could even Dragon Warrior it up, and when you say "No," they just ask you the question again.

Jed · Mar 24, 2006

Or maybe if you say no, you lose the game--see, finally some choice and consequence!

@WBC: Hey, you got de-"Illiterate"ed. Why did you get that rank in the first place, and what do you do that got you out of it?

Xi · Mar 24, 2006

RK47 said:
Just a quick question. Comparing Melee to Magic types...is Magic gonna be the same old boring Morrowind stuff or is there something new for the combat system?

Most of the hype with the combat seems to be the melee and I Haven't heard anything much on Magic.

Thus far I've found magic to be more powerful then Melee. The problem is that it's difficult to find good spells to cast early on. Also, you are limited to casting spells within your mastery level. If you get a spell at the apprentice level and you are a novice, you simply can't cast it. Some of my most difficult battles have been against mages. They can do a lot of damage very quickly. I've chosen the 'Apprentice' so my character is weak against magic though. Maybe this is affecting my ability to battle these character types.

As far as the origional poster goes, I've noticed the opposite. The game gets easier as you play. Mainly because you have more potions/scrolls and a more developed character. This is especially true if you find good gear(as this shifts the balance - as mentioned). Whether that is good or bad is in the eyes of the beholder, but I've found the game to be challenging. If it's not challenging you, crank up the difficulty. It makes them much harder.(More aggressive RAI, higher stats/levels) I had mine up pretty high but simply couldn't handle some of the encounters. The Arena battles were especially hard with the difficulty set to high.

WIN?
[yes]
[no]

lol

WouldBeCreator · Mar 24, 2006

WTF?

I got the label because SP got pissed at me in a constitutional law argument. http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic ... c&start=50

I appear to have lost the label because SP liked my take-down of that UGO guy in this thread. http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic ... 0&start=75

Honestly, I don't care much about it either way, and it strikes me that it looks suspiciously like "If you're on SP's side, you can't be illiterate." Now I'll probably get dumbfucked. :roll:

EvoG · Mar 24, 2006

Well this is rather confusing, as I've come across Trolls south near Bravil, and they are fucking hard to kill and do lots of damage ( I'm level 9 )...[hell a black bear can be a hassle]

The 'inhabitants of a certain cave north of a small inn on the road to Bruma put the beat down on me good, forcing me to leave for a later attempt at it.

I'm going to wager that the dificulty is 'proportional', meaning that monsters are always easy or hard, they just level up proportional to how strong you are.

For example:

Player at level 1, creature X is at level 3.
Player at level 3, creature X is at level 6.

All I know is that combat still isn't easy for me. *shrugs*

EvoG · Mar 24, 2006

Alright, from the strategy guide:

The world adapts to your character, so you generally encounter enemies that are no more powerful than your character at whatever level you are. This is because most enemies you run into are either "leveled" to you or are generated from "leveled lists". In general, most humanoid (Bandits, Marauders, etc) are leveled to you - as you increase in level, these enemies increase in strength along with you, so that they always provide a reasonable challenge.

I agree with this thinking.^

(cont.) Likewise, most creatures are generated from leveled lists - meaning that when you enter a dungeon, the game checks your level, and populates the dungeon with enemies appropriate to your level.

Humanoid Enemies

Bandits, Marauders, etc are the main humanoid enemies you will encounter. Instead of having different versions that appear as you increase in level, these enemies simply increase in level along with you. In general, humanoid enemies are 1 - 4 levels below your current level, while "boss" enemies will be at or slightly above your level.

Creatures

In general, creatures are not leveled to you. If you see an Ancient Ghost, you know that it is level 9 and has 170 hit points, no matter if you encounter it at level 9 or at level 29. Instead, the game provides you with a challenge by pulling creatures from leveled lists - as you rise in level, you will encounter higher-level creaures (although you will continue to see lower-level creatures as well). The exceptions to that rule are top-level creatures of each creature type, which increase in strength with you to continue to provide a challenge for your high-level character. Quest specific creatures are also leveled.

I have to say I think this is a good design, though there HAS to be a creature you can't beat in order to keep the player from seeing everything and beating the game outright from early on (assuming for a moment that was even possible). This seems to be the case, with specific creatures in specific locations, and would explain why I'm not just 'breezing' through combat.

Cheers

Jed · Mar 24, 2006

WouldBeCreator said:
WTF? I got the label because SP got pissed at me in a constitutional law argument. http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic ... c&start=50. I appear to have lost the label because SP liked my take-down of that UGO guy in this thread. http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic ... 0&start=75. Honestly, I don't care much about it either way, and it strikes me that it looks suspiciously like "If you're on SP's side, you can't be illiterate." Now I'll probably get dumbfucked.

Saint has a pretty reactionary world-view, but in the end he's a smart guy. Basically, I've just learned to avoid politics on this forum. Not just Saint, but in general.

Cue up one of those WWII propaganda posters:
When you argue politics on the Interweb, no one wins!

WouldBeCreator · Mar 24, 2006

Well, this was more an argument on constitutional interpretation, which is probably even dicier.

But, yeah, it is pretty stupid to argue politics on the Internet. Now, back to the regularly scheduled programming in this thread.

Blahblah Talks · Mar 24, 2006

WouldBeCreator said:
Now, back to the regularly scheduled programming in this thread.

Does the stupidity of the Bush administration scale with the number of American casualties in Iraq?

Twinfalls · Mar 25, 2006

Sorry EvoG I fail to see how this is good design, at all.

Do you see what these two statements, put together, tell us about the game:

when you enter a dungeon, the game checks your level, and populates the dungeon with enemies appropriate to your level.

In general, creatures are not leveled to you. If you see an Ancient Ghost, you know that it is level 9 and has 170 hit points, no matter if you encounter it at level 9 or at level 29. Instead, the game provides you with a challenge by pulling creatures from leveled lists - as you rise in level, you will encounter higher-level creaures (although you will continue to see lower-level creatures as well)

They mean that at any given level, you will pretty much never encounter a huge, fearsome creature, one which you know will crush you, will eat you up, and which you must run away from, or defeat through sheer cunning and creativity.

As Llamagod put it somewhere else:

LlamaGod said:
Gothic 2 didnt have levelled monsters and was far far more immersive and that being one of the reasons it was.

At level 1, you should be level 1. Not just a slightly weak god. You're on par with the dudes in town and not even on the level of the city guard. Their fears of certain monsters will be the same as yours, wolves and tricky rogues. And their talk of the very powerful monsters , they'll be as fearsome as they sound.

I simply can not see the fun in a game where at level 1, you can go to every single fucking dungeon in the game, and all you ever encounter are level 1 creatures or thereabouts

Remember - this is not some humunguous roguelike, this is no Daggerfall, where the tens of thousands of monster and NPC locations might make levelled lists somewhat more justifiable (though such a game would still be better with judicious but randomised placement of creatures of all levels).

Bethesda keeps trumpeting how every dungeon is 'hand made'. You know, 'quality over quantity'. So there is no excuse.

There are already grumblings and mutterings on the TES forums along the lines of 'OMG, don't get me wrong, this game is still totally fucks me till I'm all dreamy, just like my father used to do, but... ummm... Why do I only ever see wolves and deer in the wilderness?'

Saint_Proverbius · Mar 25, 2006

WouldBeCreator said:
Honestly, I don't care much about it either way, and it strikes me that it looks suspiciously like "If you're on SP's side, you can't be illiterate." Now I'll probably get dumbfucked.

I've agreed with Sarek or Savek or Serendipity or whatever the hell that kid's name is several times. He's still a dumbfuck. Why? Well, because he's just a dumbfuck.

I wouldn't consider Jed a dumbfuck. A dirty communist, maybe, but we never made a "dirty communist" rank.

EvoG said:
n general, creatures are not leveled to you. If you see an Ancient Ghost, you know that it is level 9 and has 170 hit points, no matter if you encounter it at level 9 or at level 29.

From what MSFD said months ago, instead of levelling the sewer rat up to level 52, the game just turns the sewer rat in to a Dire, Dire, Dire Rat Demon that's level 52. So, basically, instead of just upping the critter, it picks a different critter closer to what your level is.

Twinfalls · Mar 25, 2006

Saint_Proverbius said:
but we never made a "dirty communist" rank.

Nor a 'Petty Tyrant' rank.... :wink:

RK47 · Mar 25, 2006

With the new constant mana regen, does that mean you will actually spam it like FPS style of fireball?

But your mention of lack of good spells confused me, does that mean I won't have access to Spellmakers anymore?

EvoG · Mar 25, 2006

Twinfalls said:
Sorry EvoG I fail to see how this is good design, at all.

Do you see what these two statements, put together, tell us about the game:

when you enter a dungeon, the game checks your level, and populates the dungeon with enemies appropriate to your level.

Click to expand...

In general, creatures are not leveled to you. If you see an Ancient Ghost, you know that it is level 9 and has 170 hit points, no matter if you encounter it at level 9 or at level 29. Instead, the game provides you with a challenge by pulling creatures from leveled lists - as you rise in level, you will encounter higher-level creaures (although you will continue to see lower-level creatures as well)

Click to expand...

They mean that at any given level, you will pretty much never encounter a huge, fearsome creature, one which you know will crush you, will eat you up, and which you must run away from, or defeat through sheer cunning and creativity.

Twin, you stopped short of finishing that quote with a very important bit of info:

The exceptions to that rule are top-level creatures of each creature type, which increase in strength with you to continue to provide a challenge for your high-level character. Quest specific creatures are also leveled

Explains why I got my ass handed to me by a necromancer, and a few times by quest specific hunters until I started playing a bit more cautiously.

Twinfalls said:
As Llamagod put it somewhere else:

Yes, and I agree. I did say GOOD design, not perfect. Again things aren't black and white.

"Blech, this is a terrible steak"
"Sigh, this is an okay steak...I'll still eat it."
"Hmmm, this is a good steak"
"WOW, this is a GREAT steak!"
"O.M.G." *faints*...awakens after 30 minutes or so...
Misc. Friend A - "Are you okay?!"
"The steak...just..." *begins to cry*
Misc. Friend A - ...
*sobbing*
Misc Friend B - *whispering to Misc. Friend A* "Its the steak...the best steak he's ever eaten"

I said it was good design. Sure it could use some polish, but so far its a design that is not apparent to me to be failing in the gameplay department in the least.

Saint_Proverbius · Mar 25, 2006

Twinfalls said:
Nor a 'Petty Tyrant' rank.... :wink:

Actually, isn't that what Calis's rank is?

Xi · Mar 25, 2006

RK47 said:
With the new constant mana regen, does that mean you will actually spam it like FPS style of fireball?

But your mention of lack of good spells confused me, does that mean I won't have access to Spellmakers anymore?

Spellmaker is in, but you have to attain entry to the Arcane University. Initially the game is harder then Morrowind was. You're not going to buy the best spell in the beginning of the game and be able to annialate anyone. You'll have to level up a bit to get there.

I've put about 16 hours into one of my characters and he is level 9.(NightBlade) Certainly I could probably have leveled up faster, but if you just play the game without power leveling it's going to offer a challenge. Power Gaming is still possible of course. It will just take a while longer before you are able to take advantage of the system.(Probably even longer since you'll have to play through a few times before you understand everything.)

I battled a Goblin Beserker last night(Boss) and I ended up using every potion/scroll I had and coming close to death many times during our 5 minute battle. My fatigue was too low to do enough damage Melee wise, and I burned through my Magika quickly while I missed numerous times because I couldn't see him in the dark.

My character is light on Magic of course, but I find that it does more damage then my sword if I use it properly. Oh, and willpower determines how quickly your mana/fatigue regenerates, so low willpower and don't count on being able to cast a lot.

When you see a Boss character the immediate difference is how aggressive they are in comparison to the other monsters. This encounter threw me off guard. Again, I was so close to dying. If I had to do that fight again I probably would have. Just lucky I guess.

DarkUnderlord · Mar 25, 2006

I'm going to take another approach and say that I think only encountering level 1 rats in dungeons even on the other side of the island, breaks immersion. How can you feel you're in a real immersive world if the majority of what you encounter is setup deliberately to match your skills?

Hrmm.. I'm in the Temple of Evil and oh look! EVIL LEVEL ONE RATS!

Is Oblivion really that bad though? EvoG seems to be saying that's not the case...

The difficulty in Oblivion.

Liturgist

Arcane

collides like two planets pulled by gravity

Magister

Arbiter

Administrator

Magister

Cipher

Scholar

Cipher

Arcane

Scholar

Erudite

Erudite

Cipher

Scholar

Arbiter

Erudite

Administrator

Erudite

collides like two planets pulled by gravity

Erudite

Administrator

Arcane

Professional Throne Sitter