The difficulty in Oblivion.

[Xi]

Is Oblivion really that bad though? EvoG seems to be saying that's not the case...

There's more variety then just rats is the thing. I've stumbled on rats and mudcrabs in heavily goblin infested areas(sometimes a goblin is fighting one). I've seen minotaurs as early as level 5 , this is a very bad situation btw, and come across certain Spell Casting NPC's who can be very challenging. Sometimes my inventory is almost full and I get drained of Strength and suddenly I can't move.(This can suck) Or, an NPC will cast chameleon and it can be very difficult to aim at them as they move about. I guess what I'm getting at is that it's more varied then just seeing rats on level 1, goblins on level 2, necromancers on level 3, etc. I've run across a dungeon full of ogres on level 7 too. Trying to fight two ogres is practically death, so you must be somewhat strategic in luring them away from each other. I lured one out of a dungeon and trained him into a camp of bandits. I then sat back(after killing one of the bandits) and watched the rest of the bandits kill the ogre. By the time the fight was over, the rest of the bandits were weak enough to dispatch. It has more variety then the description implies. Sometimes it's too easy and other times I'm struggling to survive.

I haven't noticed the monster leveling system too much. I have noticed gear leveling though. You won't be seeing deadric armor/glass/etc in the beginning unless your willing to kill an NPC who is wearing it.(Which would be difficult anyway) So, gear wise you will notice that the stores offer more advanced loot as you level. (Spells/weapons/armor/items included) It doesn't feel bad though.

Trying to give example rather then quote implementation or books. This is my own experience.

 

[mister lamat]

every once in a while you do run into nasties who are pre-leveled... meaning there are multiple big bad nasties in various dungeons out there, all around level fourty or fifty. they're often in fairly remote places, meaning you have to seek them out and discover where they are.

as for the rats... rats always seem to be level one. makes them great for leveling block and light armor... restoration too.

the one thing i do like about the level system now, no matter what order i do the quests in, they'll always be worth my time. as i discover and travel, there will always be oppritunities and there will always be rewards from doing them.

i've been playing a custom class that i named 'bedouin' for giggles. stealth focus, high wiilpower and agility. breton by birth, with destruction, sneak, security, blade, alteration, illusion and light armor for skills. for me, the gameplay with this character has just totally clicked. stabbing muthafuckas in the neck from the shadows, melting faces when thier friends see me... it's been a riot.

maybe it's the fact i took almost a year off from this place (when the fo license went to beth to be exact) and haven't read a gaming site in months, that i can kind of appreciate this game for what it really is at it's core, minus the hype and the hate.

 

[RK47]

With the new constant mana regen, does that mean you will actually spam it like FPS style of fireball?

But your mention of lack of good spells confused me, does that mean I won't have access to Spellmakers anymore?

Spellmaker is in, but you have to attain entry to the Arcane University. Initially the game is harder then Morrowind was. You're not going to buy the best spell in the beginning of the game and be able to annialate anyone. You'll have to level up a bit to get there.

[/i])

Alright last questions, as I played Morrowind for a while I can remember the ultimate powergaming tool in game : Enchanting.

How stupidly powerful can enchants be in terms of end game?
I recall having a ridiculous amount of rechargable Deal XXX Dmg Pants that Steals HP in big chunks while playing Morrowind. I call it Lifecrotch. Can we do that again?

 

[Twinfalls]

<stuff>
I said it was good design. Sure it could use some polish, but so far its a design that is not apparent to me to be failing in the gameplay department in the least.

Okay, cool - the proof is in the pudding, I guess.

Whilst you are enjoying the game, and have had some encounters with npcs/monsters that killed you quite easily, do you find that this is missing:

The feeling of going to some off-the-track place you were warned about, only to find some real 'holy shit, those things are HUGE' type beasts there, and have to high-tail it out and keep the place in mind for when you've got that Daedric axe, maybe risen to Enchanter rank, and/or got some pals with you?

Like the forest in Gothic 2, where the Shadowbeasts lurked, and those dinosaur creatures etc. Heck, even in Daggerfall, if you go through the MQ too quickly, and don't take advantage of for example the 100 days you were given to visit, say, Shedungent, you'd find it freaking hard - the vampires and Liches and stuff in there would toast you real quick...

 

[Twinfalls]

From need-I-say-where:

The basic point of this post is that exploration is not rewarded. Leveling simply makes the enemies more powerful. Items dropped are never significantly better than you'd expect, or (once you reach a certain point in the game) better than the stuff you already ahve. You can explore for the sake of exploration, but that's it.

There's no doubt that exploration is rewarded a LITTLE. At a bare minimum, you'll get some gold from the random stuff you sell.

But it's not rewarded much. The two best rpgs of all time -- BGII and Wizardry VIII -- both had WOW! moments where you ran into some uber powerful enemy, who you KNEW was guarding some ridiculously powerful weapon. (Firkraag and Carsomyr in BGII, Sorceress Queen and Fang in W8) When you finally beat that enemy, and got that item, the sense of accomplishment was IMMENSE.

Unfortunately, due to the loot drop (and enemy level scaling) system, there's no sense of awe or accomplishment in Oblivion. You can wander around if you just like the sights, or if you like exploring for it's own sake. But exploring and fighting enemies doesn't make you significantly more or less powerful. it makes you about as powerful as someone your level should expect to be.

I suppose bethesda wnated to make it so that you could literally go anywhere and do anything at any time, and be fine as far as level/loot. But that's not very fun, and it doesn't make much sense.

Personally, the gothic system (where you literally get smashed by everything above a rat, and wandering off the roads is a surefire way to get yourslef killed) is much more fun to me. But apparently only the "hardcore" european market can sustain such games nowadays. Everything in the US, and for the console market, has to be watered down.

Thoughts?

The one I really hate is how even Arena opponents are leveled. So basically you can become the Arena champion by freaking beating on a bunch of chumps. I was really looking forward to working for the championship too. Where the hell is the glory in that?

http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/inde ... pic=293952

 

[Xi]

With the new constant mana regen, does that mean you will actually spam it like FPS style of fireball?

But your mention of lack of good spells confused me, does that mean I won't have access to Spellmakers anymore?

Spellmaker is in, but you have to attain entry to the Arcane University. Initially the game is harder then Morrowind was. You're not going to buy the best spell in the beginning of the game and be able to annialate anyone. You'll have to level up a bit to get there.

[/i])

Alright last questions, as I played Morrowind for a while I can remember the ultimate powergaming tool in game : Enchanting.

How stupidly powerful can enchants be in terms of end game?
I recall having a ridiculous amount of rechargable Deal XXX Dmg Pants that Steals HP in big chunks while playing Morrowind. I call it Lifecrotch. Can we do that again?

Enchanting is now a perk of the mages guild. Just like creating spells, you must gain access to the Arcane University before you are able to enchant anything. You won't be enchanting anything right off the bat. It's no longer a skill, but a perk. I have not gotten this far yet, so I can't really comment on how powerful it is, but it does appear to be similar to the Morrowind system. There are some different spell effects however, and clothing/armor are now always constant effect and weapons are always cast on strike.

 

[Twinfalls]

Sorry to spam this thread, but this is getting rather compelling. The jury of one of the most fanboyish forums out there has now given its verdict:

The levelled lists and so-called game balance is well fucked up, yet again.

Check this thread, and note how the usual drowning chorus of 'ITS ALL GOOD YOU DO BETTER' has pretty much disappeared....

I did what many others did, actually put major skills as major skills and now at level 16 with 21 hours into the game i am bouncing off average dungeon creatures like zombies and getting mauled by mountain lions and bears. I am using the grand champion armor from the arena that I earned with ALOT of kiting (thank you speed attribute) with a dwarven bow with dwarven arrows as my main weapon and an elven longsword with an elven shield as secondary. It takes me exactly 18 shots to kill a bear and it can kill me in 5 hits (though 4th hit leaves me with next to nothing). Exactly what kind of equipment am I supposed to have? This is the best ive run across im at a loss as to what to do.

Ive been playing a thief character with Blade, Marksman, Alchemy, Sneak, Security, Light Armor, Acrobatics. All of my skills are 40+ with marksman in the 60s and light armor in 70s I think. Speed is maxed and agility is 91. I used a cheat to max out my marksmanship and it still took 15 shots to kill a bear and thats with my first shot being a 3x sneak critical. My Dwarven bow has an attack of 8, does that mean id do twice the damage if I found a bow with 16 attack? That would still take about 7 shots to kill a bear and thats at my CURRENT level and I didnt level up at all when I used the cheat to max out marksmanship. A 16 attack bow from what im seeing is near impossible for me to find without perhaps resorting to a spoiler to find some uber bow in one of the 100+ dungeons.

So seriously, what am I to do? My options seem to be that I either A. use the difficulty slider and feel like everything Ive done hasnt been really earned or B. start over and power build myself to leetness by controlling how often I level and try to get 3x +5 modifiers when I lvl.

I find it funny that there are some of you who havent run into this brickwall difficulty and are calling those of us who have weak, I also find it funny that these same people have played the game almost HALF of the amount of time that I have. Just wait till you get to around this level and youll see that there is a problem and it doesnt have to do with player skill.

I didn't way I want a challenge. But the challenge I am looking for doesn't involves hours of testing and tweaking my stats to design a character that is compatible with the game. My idea of a challenge does not involve having to lower and increase the difficulty slider to overcome obstacles. My idea of a challenge doesn't involve reverse engineering game design variables to my character can level up in reaasonable and workable ways. I want to roleplay... that is the challenge I want. Maybe today I want to play a con artist that relies on his charm and persuation skills. Maybe tomorrow I want to play a barbarian that hacks and slashes his way through the world. Maybe tomorrow I want to play a sneaky assassin that backstabs and kills from the shadows. Right now it doesn't sound like that is possible without cherry-picking skills from character creation.

I want my challenge from playing the game.. not figuring out how to best adapt my character around game design.

Didn't read much past the first page.. but.. I'm level 27 and a damn bear was hard as hell compared to the daedra inside the Oblivion gates. I like the system, but like everyone else, I feel that I'm getting weaker as I level.

It's not like the whole system is messed up... But, when riding around in the wilderness, it gets pretty damn annoying having wildlife that can kill me in a few hits when I can take on groups of Daedra inside the Oblivion Gates. Obviously, the leveled lists need to be tweaked.

I've played a bit over 20 hours and I've noticed it. Kvatch was broken at level 12 or so, due to the fact I had to solo groups of 4+ tough enemies. Clanfears could do about 20% of my health in damage per hit, and there were other enemies as well.

Mountain lions too have scaled high enough to be deadly dangerous, especially with their speed (I have Speed as my highest stat and Athletics as a primary and still have trouble not getting hit by their lunge).

I want the level scaling to be changed to a slope intercept form equation, where level = constant + (player level x multiplier), and balanced in such a way that the correlation between the enemy and player level is not close to 1.0 (i.e. they gain 1 level every time I do).

Yup. Seriously, it doesn't make sense that a mountain lion all of a sudden evolves to super-mountain lion just because I went to sleep. I can understand leveling them up a bit to remain challenging, but there comes a point that the PC should be able to kill a mountain lion with ease. I mean you're suppossed to turn back the minions of hell but you can barely kill a mountain lion?

http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/inde ... pic=290958

 

[RK47]

Scaled creature lvl up patch incoming IMO.
That's pretty f-ed up there. Obviously the testers didn't explore the wilderness enough after beating daedras.

A shame really.

 

[Twinfalls]

Patch? You mean mod, by non-paid volunteers, yet again...

 

[RK47]

As long as it fixes the game. or Balances it.

Hey Mr. Kasavin of G-Spot is too busy saving the world from Daedra to kill some pussies outside town at lvl 20 , right? ^^

 

[4too]

Live By THe Sword, 'Cry' By The Sword

Live By THe Sword, 'Cry' By The Sword


Twinfalls. Thanks for the high on the other white meat cuts of Beth's Utopia.


With most options on this 'tree' in the jungle of Immersive Life Lite,
truncated to ''eat or be eaten'',
it appears that talking or walking or stalking ain't, goin' ah, keep ALL the faithful blinded by the light of eye candy akimbo.

Lost the sugar buzz of the nex-gen graphics, and have to pay to play by going left brain and learning to beat the [game] system.

Might have to train on some old beat-em ups to retool the old hand eye?

No?

Mod?

No.

Mode. God Mode.

God Mode is what will fall from the freeware skys.

This is the modern, every gen, business mod(el) of might-ay Micro Soft, letting 3rd parties fill the - gap(e)s - between patches .

Appears to be a market niche, and behold God Mode will bless the faithful.




4too

 

[Jed]

I wouldn't consider Jed a dumbfuck. A dirty communist, maybe, but we never made a "dirty communist" rank.

Yeah, but the thing is: I'm against communism as well...

 

[aweigh]

@Twinfalls ESF highlights:

A game-balance changing patch like that will not come from Bethesda because: 1) I'm sure they won't be allowed to fix anything huge on the PC that they can't fix on the 360 (like levelled lists), and 2) They'd have to admit they were wrong.

This kind of thing will be fixed by modders (as with the rest of the damn game) and 360 owners will have been screwed. As they deserve. Wait, what?

 

[Mr. Teatime]

The thing is, once you realise how this works, you realise that there's no point in going in any of the dungeons you encounter. Even if it looks really foreboding, I can tell you, there won't be an uber weapon at the end of it if you somehow manage to get past the insane boss who could kill you in 2 hits. Your equipment is going to be just as good as anything you find in that dungeon, so really there's no point in going in.
Similarly, if you go out of the way and find a well hidden path with lots of dangerous leaps and traps, and then at the end of it you find a chest surrounded by shooting flames or whatever - don't bother opening it. There won't be anything impressive in there, due to the loot scaling system.
It's kind of depressing once you realise this and I certainly have lost the urge to do much in the game. Everything is bland.
The fact that if you want an easier time in the game you have to NOT level, as levelling doesn't increase your powers (relative to the game world) but in fact makes the monsters tougher, just adds to the feeling of 'whats the point?'. It's like an anti-RPG. Surpress your desires to level up since you will become weaker relatively speaking, surpress your desire to explore since there will be no loot payoff.... eh.

 

[Twinfalls]

The entire game scales to YOU. It's perfect FOR YOU.

Want to be the champion of the imperial city's gladiatorial arena at level 1? Go ahead, because the game will adjust the arena combatants (even the world famous grand champion!) to your abilities. Want to charge into the gates of oblivion with a rusty knife and 5 blade skill? No worries, because you'll face stunted scamps with as little skill and hp as you have.

Contrary to what you seem to think, games with random loot are the ones that are about dressing a barbie doll. Diablo 2 is the game that comes into mind.

Bethesda totally caved to the people who wanted games that were right FOR THEM. Who would be upset by the fact that they might (often) enter a dungeon and just get slaughtered because it was too high level for them. Who would be frustrated by the fact that they couldn't wander the wilderness miles from civilization in the dead of the ngiht, at level 1, and face the possibility of *gasp* harm.

You should not be able to walk the entire world with such complete and utter confidence when you are a level 1 runt.

oh, and just to reiterate, the difficulty slider does nothing to solve this problem. i've been palying with it at max difficulty, first of all.

Second and more importantly, the slider affects all enemies equivalently. So instead of being scaled to your level, they're scaled to, say, two levels above you, or four levels above you.

Still no sense of awe or discovery, since you know exactly what you're going to get at every location, and in every dungeon.

Fast-food analogy is nice -- the entire game is packaged quick and easy, just for you.

http://www.elderscrolls.com/forums/inde ... 3952&st=60

 

[RK47]

....i'm gonna have to do a selective amnesia on this thread just so that I can actually *try* to play lol ^^ here's hoping I can get that download to finish tomorrow.

 

[4too]

To Those Who Are About To Die, ..., We Salute You

To Those Who Are About To Die,( with the most toys), We Salute You.






Mr. Teatime:

... It's like an anti-RPG. Surpress your desires to level up since you will become weaker relatively speaking, surpress your desire to explore since there will be no loot payoff.... eh.

Wait, with the proper post industrial attitude, consumerism is ACTION satisfaction enough to run the mouse maze and power the hamster wheel of socially engineered entertainment!



Twinfalls Quote:

... games with random loot are the ones that are about dressing a barbie doll ...

So in the eyes of some beholders, OBLIV is a B-PG: Barbie Playing Game.





4too

 

[Elwro]

They should implement Voltare's (was it him?) reverse-leveling ideas. :D

 

[aboyd]

I've been mostly quiet about Oblivion because I know the Codex members have been pretty annoyed with the hype -- and since I'm not annoyed about that, the game doesn't seem too anti-climactic to me. I might have good things to say about it. I certainly haven't been bothered by many of the criticisms voiced at the Codex so far (although draw distance problems will be a real issue for me).

However, I think the quotes Twinfalls has posted illuminate a legitimate complaint. I mean, this is the kind of thing that would cause me to simply never play the game at all. I haven't bought the game yet, and at this point, I'm pretty much convinced that I will not, unless there is an official patch or unoffical mod.

Such a fix doesn't have to overhaul the whole system. However, each critter should have a minimum level and a maximum level. In addition, since the dungeons are auto-populated with level-appropriate monsters, the dungeon-generation system itself should have caps on how high or low each can go.

I think a minimalist mod could be created that would at least make the game sensible.

-Tony

 

[elander_]

Such a fix doesn't have to overhaul the whole system. However, each critter should have a minimum level and a maximum level. In addition, since the dungeons are auto-populated with level-appropriate monsters, the dungeon-generation system itself should have caps on how high or low each can go.

It has. he level system is just a table indexed by the players level. It's natural for ES games to use this system. In Daggerfall dungeon were marked by what types of monsters would span in the dungeon.

For example:

level 1; rat; str 20; agi 20; hp 50
level 5; rat; str 20; agi 50; hp 70
level 10; poisoner rat; str 20; agi 70; hp 100
level 20; poison/disease rat; str 20; agi 100; hp 150

This works as a cap after level 20. It never summons nothing tougher than the last rat.

But this stuff is old. It was good in Daggerfall times. Now it's almost ridiculous that peple are still using this system.

Making monsters difficulty level fixed it's not a good solution either. It forces the player to follow the path of less difficult monsters first. It doesn't make sense either that rats in town dungeon A have hp 50 and the exact same type of rats in town B have 150 hp.

This is 2006 and computers can use more advanced AI algorithms than games in 1990. Beth could have used RAI decide how to scale monsters but i supose RAI is not what they have advertised and they would not have the know how to do it right since there is nothing for them to blatantly copy from in this area.

 

[TairosAurelius]

The scaling system is totally idiotic. It was the worst decision they've made since the combined the blades skills. I could understand the whole Oblivion problem intensifying over time, but having to plod along for hours to have the opportunity to move beyond steel armor is terrible.

 

[bryce777]

I've agreed with Sarek or Savek or Serendipity or whatever the hell that kid's name is several times. He's still a dumbfuck. Why? Well, because he's just a dumbfuck.

 

[obediah]

Maybe I'll start over with difficulty at max, and then move it down a notch every other level.

Tieing encounters to character level is ridiculous in a system like TES where character level is almost independent of combat power.

Levelled encounters are the game designer equivalent of chemotherapy. They know somethings wrong, but no idea how to fix it, so they swing a hammer around until the imbalance and tons of immersion have been killed.

 

[glasnost]

Maybe TES V will just have a dialog that pops up when you start the game:

WIN?
[yes]
[no]

TES V must have been covertly entered into the 2005 Interactive Fiction Competition.

The entry was called "FutureGame". You can download it here.

But that's not necessary. Look here for a screenshot. It doubles as a transcript of the entire plot.

I remember when I played it I thought it was cute, but it's kinda spooky looking back at it now.

 

[aboyd]

In addition, since the dungeons are auto-populated with level-appropriate monsters, the dungeon-generation system itself should have caps on how high or low each can go.

It has. he level system is just a table indexed by the players level. It's natural for ES games to use this system. In Daggerfall dungeon were marked by what types of monsters would span in the dungeon.

For example:

level 1; rat; str 20; agi 20; hp 50
level 5; rat; str 20; agi 50; hp 70
level 10; poisoner rat; str 20; agi 70; hp 100
level 20; poison/disease rat; str 20; agi 100; hp 150

This works as a cap after level 20. It never summons nothing tougher than the last rat.

Great. So, wouldn't that make it even easier for a modder to go in and remove the lines for level 1 & level 5, thus creating a fairly hard dungeon? Seems like the mod may be easier than I expected, although if what you outlined is hard-coded into the engine itself, then meh.

-Tony