The difficulty in Oblivion.

[Rulion]

I'm really not finding the combat that easy. Do I have a different game, or did I twink out my character less? My combat skills are Destruction, Blade, Light Armour. My difficulty is higher than normal, but just barely. Sure, rats are easy to kill. So are wolves. Humans are more of a challenge, especially when you're fighting more than one. If you smack one who just put his shield up, it stuns you. This stunning usually leaves me open to a couple hits from the extra enemy.


SIDE-QUEST SPOILERS

I'm currently level five. (STR 55, SPEED and AGILITY approaching 60. Armed with chainmail and a normal katana. Also, silver bow and silver arrows) In one of the side-quests, you go to a woman's house and she enlists your help in finding her husband. Her husband is a famous artist. She claims he never left his studio, yet he is no longer in there. She gives you the key and you go inside. There's a few paintings hanging around. One depicts a forest scene. Click on it and you'll be transported to the very scene on it. You are then approached by the husband. The basic gist is that you're both trapped in the painting with no way out but to retrieve his paintbrush. This brush was stolen by a thief who proceeded to draw guardian trolls. These trolls killed the very thief that drew them. Got it? Good.

The husband gives you six turpentine bottles that serve as poison to these trolls. A blow with my katana and this poison knocks a troll down maybe 1/5 or 1/4 of their life. They also regenerate, making my bow useless against them. They can kill you in about 7 hits. I managed to kill the first two using my katana and the poison, each fight leaving me with barely no HP. I was left with 2 bottles of poison remaining. Too bad there were FIVE trolls left. It was NOT scaled down to my level.



Using my speed, I ran like a mofo past the trolls. You run slower with your weapon out, so I sheathed everything. Trust me, it's scary to have five trolls in hot pursuit as you raid a body and you're without a shield or sword to block. Running back to the husband posed a problem - he would get his ass owned by the trolls. Therefore, I had to climb a little hill. I managed to lose four of the five trolls. The one who managed to keep up with the climb almost killed me. Seemed like a hard quest to me, especially at lvl 5 and with no way to exit the forest.

In another quest (DB) you are told to go to a party. You must kill all the guests without them knowing of the other one's death. Fun and challenging.

 

[LlamaGod]

yay, linear quests with heavy combat emphasis

 

[Rulion]

I suppose you could use stealth. But yeah, a combat heavy quest. Though, I just died the moment I got back from that ordeal. Too bad I didn't fucking save.

SPOILER

In the beginning of the game I put away a corrupt Imperial guard. He escaped from prison and came back to kill me. The moment I popped out of the portrait with barely any HP and weapons sheathed, I got owned

 

[EvoG]

Alright, now being 32 hours in, level 12, with my primaries being Stealth and Marksman, having experienced what I've experienced and reading what I've been reading now about leveled loot, I'd be lying if I wasn't discouraged a bit, but ultimately I am not worried.

Regarding the leveling of the world to your character as a concept:

GOOD

• [Creatures] You're never feeling that you couldn't go anywhere in the world; even less skilled or committed players can enjoy the sights if they're interested in a specific kind of gameplay.
  
• [Creatures] The game continues to be a base challenge level that maintains that while nothing will be overly powerful (in general) causing frustration, nothing will be terribly weak (in general), such as the rat discussion we've had in many TB combat conversations, causing boredom and/or tedium.
  
• [Loot] You don't run the risk of overpowering you character by some stroke of luck or exploit (getting the SMG VERY early in FO).

BAD

• [Creatures] As Twin asked me:
  
  

  Whilst you are enjoying the game, and have had some encounters with npcs/monsters that killed you quite easily, do you find that this is missing:
  
  The feeling of going to some off-the-track place you were warned about, only to find some real 'holy shit, those things are HUGE' type beasts there, and have to high-tail it out and keep the place in mind for when you've got that Daedric axe, maybe risen to Enchanter rank, and/or got some pals with you?

  
  If the game doesn't allow for some risky exploration, the feeling of survival is gone, which in and of itself is a reward, as if you had gotten away with something you shouldn't have. The mystery of what dangers lie beyond is dispelled. The awe of finding the lair of a great beast many times your feeble abilities...that "uh oh" moment...is gone
  
• [Loot] If loot is going to be no more powerful than your level allows, their is no reward for being somewhere you shouldn't be and running off with a cool weapon slightly above your pay grade (just saw "Inside Man" last night...kick ass movie).

Now, speaking specifically of Oblivion, so far my experience has not been 'tainted' by this method of design. I find combat comfortably satisfying at its least dangerous, and almost frustratingly difficult at its worst, like being chased by two trolls and a goddamn wisp(magic or silver only). I HAVE fought a Flame Atronach, and was surprised how quickly I dispatched it, but I have no point of reference if those are supposed to be stronger creatures or not. Also, I am playing an archer/thief, so perhaps combat is easier for fighters who dole out the damage like tanks, where I'm more of a guerrilla fighter, and have yet to find a bow and arrow combo that is clearly devastating unless I get my 3x stealth hits.

Another note, I have not gone anywhere far and away from civilization. In my 32 hours of play, most of that has been doing quests in the five cities relatively close to the ImpCity. I've not strayed far from major roadways, and if I did, certainly nowhere near as far in as the sheer size of the wastelands in the Imperial Reserve near and around the Colovian Highlands, nor near the easter border of Morrowind, where there is just nothing as far as cities. Knowing that their are major "boss" creatures in the game as per the strategy guide, I expect that perhaps while not an "omg uh oh" creature encounter, I at least expect that when it matters, there will be a creature I cannot beat, as has happened to me with necromancers.

Now, I was discouraged to hear about the loot being leveled, but looking at the strategy guide and giving this some thought, I'm torn. Every game on the planet since the dawn of gaming has always increased (leveled) the baddies you fought and the weapons you used, so this isn't overtly unsual to find. Secondly, while its neat to find a blisteringly powreful weapon early, you generally do not find many in most games. Pick your game, but for the most part you always had a weapon and armor set that was just around your skill level. You didn't get the bozar or powerarmor in FO until much much later. Perhaps you could gank those things with some work, but for the most part you didn't.

The downside to leveled loot is what I mentioned above in the BAD section. This makes dungeons feel less interesting, as you know to never expect anything more than your level will allow, so that feeling of gaining an advantage is missing. Its human nature to want a slight(or major) advantage in order to win, so finding a bow in my case, that doubled the damage i was currently doing would make me feel like I was better than most, even if unfairly, but I earned it because I fled with it from a dragons lair. Fine, it would catch up to me as I got further into the game, and the enemies got stronger, but for a little bit there, I was enjoying that advantage, and that would be missing here.

All in all, though, I HAVE found weapons and armor that have been significantly better than what I currently held, especially magical bows. Not a WHOLE lot better, but cool enough to warrant spelunking. The base level loot shows what you'll get categorically (dwarven, elven, ebony, daedric, etc), but within each category are a large variety of weapons and abilites attached to them, so you could find a dwarven bow (like I have currently) only to later find a Dwarven Bow of Wintery Blizzardly-ness, which does 15 pts of frost damage and protects me equally from frost attacks. Still within the level cateogry(dwarven) but with cool properties making the find worth it.

Bottom line, again while not perfect, its not making the game any less fun. Its one thing to sit on the sidelines watching others play, and pick apart elements singularly, which could make them sound much worse than they are, but as I've said in my review thread, its really about the entire composition. The big picture; the way the whole thing comes together. Yes there are issues with every part of the game (most games do) but when you combine the entire experience of play into one package, you realise they dont matter. If you're goal, singularly, is to go traipsing through the deepest darkest woods right from the begining of the game, and find a legendary weapon of all killing, then perhaps yea you'll be very disappointed. But if you step back and realise that for the most part this game isn't behaving any differently than the way most games balance challenge, and offering a pretty compelling world filled with fairly interesting quest stories, then you'll probably be pretty entertained. I've yet to do even the very first main story quest, having been wrapped up in the thieves guild story, all that again with 32 hours of gameplay. The world feels like its just begging for something to happen regarding the emperor and I'm completely in control of the accelerator. For the first time too, I was told I wasn't "important enough" to do a certain something I wanted to, telling me that indeed going forth with the main quest will make some distinct changes to my status in the game world(its also tracked on the stats page under fame/infamy). I'd have no fame as I haven't really done anything important enough to the whole of the world, just helping out in a few small portions.

I'd say just play it and avoid the speculation. Not because you shouldn't have the right to bitch, because you do, and you should complain, but at least be informed. Make of the experience what you will but at least make it first hand. I had little interest in Oblivion initially, and now I'm pleasantly surprised and enjoying it all the more.

 

[mister lamat]

another thing that hasn't really been brought up with weapon leveling is the amount of variation in procs and such, which ties into enchanting, which is where the weapons on thier own really begin to shine.

an elven dagger is an elven dagger, true, but i just came across one that procs a four second silence. for my build, assasin mage hybrid, it's a truely devestating weapon against caster mobs. the same can be said for the poisons i have to use versus heavy melee mobs. it's really quite intricate in how i have to scout and approach fights now at level fifteen. the first levels in the game, combat is sorta easy and even a mage can stab it out with anything face to face, but as you go on this changes. the gameworld here may adapt to the players level, but inorder to head on, you have to adapt to it as well.

something else worthy of note, while thier may only be a grand total of ten voices for npcs, excluding major characters, all the lines are recorded individually... meaning some npcs will recite the same line in the same way as another character of the same race/status/age... *queue tears and angry recriminations from some*... the part that interests me about this is, when it comes to writing storylines and adding quests into the game, the mechanics are the to add voiceovers for everything you write. pretty damn cool.

 

[RK47]

Hype me More!

 

[Old Scratch]

Cross-posted from Obsidian forums:

It's fine, don't even worry about that thread. I've done my share of bitching about Oblivion at the Codex(admitedly prior to playing it), but that's one area that the developers made a brilliant design decision.

Sure you can get through at level 1 by avoiding ever resting in an inn--to officially advance your level, but why the heck would you want to? The growth of your character would be very minimal. Your skill progression would stagnate from not increasing your attributes.

Having it so that enemies scale in power just ensures everything is challenging, but you also don't ever have to turn around just because you realize something is too "high level". If you can't overcome a fight, it's simply because you're not doing well enough skill-wise, or your not thinking it through enough. For example, I went on this sidequest that involved exploring the wreckage of a ship. The "end guy" was hard as hell, but I knew that it wasn't because he was too high level for me, but I simply had to play it smart and use everything in my arsenal to full effect, which after several tries, I managed to do.

It's also great because there are no low level trash monsters that make areas feel pointless to trudge through. I might be mistaken about this, but it seems rewards also scale depending on your level when you complete a sidequest as well.

There are also cheat codes in the game. One could argue that their mere exsistence makes the game pointless too, since you could basically breeze through it if you wanted. There's a simple solution though: don't use them, play the game the way it was meant to be played.

I could see how the system might suck ass if you're a power-leveler and desire to get to a point where you can kill everything in one shot, but power leveling is a retarded focus for people who don't like to be challenged. Game's these days are too damn easy as it is.

Even if you did refuse to increase your level, you would still need money and items to overcome some challenges.

 

[EvoG]

Alright, after what I just went through in Kvatch I dont think ANYONE needs to worry about difficulty, and in fact will be glad to have that slider handy.

 

[Twinfalls]

Meaning that you got to Kvatch after levelling up quite a bit, so it's actually much harder than if you were level 1? I've heard that after a certain level, the levelled creatures kill all the troops there, thereby mobbing you alone.....

 

[Solik]

I did Kvatch at level 2. The monsters mauled the NPCs, and I had to resort to some really fruity tactics to win (in fact, I had to rely on the one story-critical NPC who would get up after a few seconds and fight some more... I was grossly underleveled and underequipped but had already saved after starting the thing, so I had to resort to such abuses to win). At level 8, I was still fighting mostly the same creatures in an Oblivion gate.

One problem with Morrowind was that you could go collect the great stuff after you'd found it in a previous play-through, ruining economy and game balance. I would have thought that fixing this would have been a -good- thing.

I've noticed that insane hard fights still exist. This time, they seem to be accomplished through numbers. I went into this one dungeon and ran into 6 skeletal warriors at the same time. A one-on-one fight with those things was challenging. Six was a nightmare. I really had to play to beat them. Went through a good bit of equipment, too, heh.

At any rate, Oblivion punishes (or at least outright refuses to reward) metagame-style playing -- thinking about monster levels, how the system generates loot and how to best take advantage of it, using knowledge from previous play-throughs, etc. I haven't hit high levels yet, so I can't comment on the crazy bears and mountain lions.

 

[Section8]

One problem with Morrowind was that you could go collect the great stuff after you'd found it in a previous play-through, ruining economy and game balance. I would have thought that fixing this would have been a -good- thing.

It's definitely a positive feature in that respect, and it's also very positive when it comes to attempting to lock the difficult curve directly to player character efficiency.

But it comes with compromises. A player who is aware of the systems at play loses the sense of character progression to a degree, because they can't reasonably compare past and future encounters based on relative success. For instance, a player can't really go somewhere, take a thorough beating, and vow to return when they're stronger for vindication.

That's a pretty important game feature to me. It lets the player set personal goals and overcome them, which is arguably more enjoyable than ticking off predefined quests.

Throw a healthy dose of curiosity into the mix, and you've got a pwoerful compulsion. "That <tough fucker I can't possibly beat at my level> must be guarding some pretty good shit! I can't wait until I'm strong enough to best it!"

I think it can also come across as a very treadmill like activity. If I'm walking somewhere, I can see my surroundings change. I know I'm eventually going to reach a destination. If I'm on a treadmill, I know that no matter how far I walk, I'm not really getting anywhere, even if I am vaguely aware that continued training lets me run the belt at a faster pace, or for a longer duration.

That's pretty counter-productive toward verisimilitude, though probably remarkably helpful if you're wanting to roleplay a nihilist.

The other big problem I see with Bethesda's particular implementation, is that character level is a fairly loose measure in an Elder Scrolls game, and that counter intuitive character builds wind up being more effective. (Major<->Minor swapping)

I've noticed that insane hard fights still exist. This time, they seem to be accomplished through numbers. I went into this one dungeon and ran into 6 skeletal warriors at the same time. A one-on-one fight with those things was challenging. Six was a nightmare. I really had to play to beat them. Went through a good bit of equipment, too, heh.

I'm glad to hear there are still exceptions. How rare is it to encounter a challenging encounter against stacked odds?

At any rate, Oblivion punishes (or at least outright refuses to reward) metagame-style playing -- thinking about monster levels, how the system generates loot and how to best take advantage of it, using knowledge from previous play-throughs, etc. I haven't hit high levels yet, so I can't comment on the crazy bears and mountain lions.

There are other ways to punish metagaming, again with their own pros and cons. For instance, providing a challenge that can't be easily circumvented in order to access high level gear. For instance, I do remember a particularly tough fight in Morrowind when I was after a suit of ebony armour, and had to fight the guy wearing it to get my greedy little paws on it.

 

[Xi]

On loot:
I've noticed that I find better gear the further I venture into the boonies. If I stay close to home I'm more or less restricted to store bought loot, stealing, etc. If I venture out I'm finding magical items. Also, most of the stores offer 1 special weapon/armor item that costs 5-20K that has some pretty buff magical effects. So, it's not impossible to become the powergamer, it's just harder all around.

On Combat:
I find myself rarely feeling bored of the combat encounters. Even after I've been in a single dungeon for 45 minutes it's still fun to battle on. Strategy has been very important for my character's survival of course. Usually by the end of a dungeon, most of my gear is broken and I've run out of all heal/magic potions and scrolls - especially after a boss fight. Death ensues probably more then it should though. I find myself dying left and right if I just blatantly act the fool.

In the low levels it felt like I had few options strategy wise. More or less just swinging retardedly like in Morrowind.(The faster click wins) As I've gained levels, if I try to outclick my opponents(especially fighter types) it's a sure loss for my nightblade. If I don't use magic/stealth some fights can be almost impossible. So, it has gotten harder in some respects while easier in others. It always offers a challenge, good or bad.

I think the game really defines the differences between fighting a Mage/Rogue/Warrior/Archer/Etc. Each type feels different, and depending on your class, certain encounters are more lethal then others.

I've had a few moments of discouragement along the way of course, but usually I just pack it up and head somewhere else if I can't overcome.

 

[Blacklung]

I'm with Xi on this so far. I've been playing for a few days now (progression severely limited by my lappy and it's crappy loading times), and am past level 16. This is definitely not an ADHD run in and powergame over your enemies. You have to be smart. You have to use your surroundings and devise a strategy to overcome some of the odds. Quite frankly it's a bit refreshing. It might be a neverending uphill battle, but at least I know I won't become complacent.

Also, we do have to remember that as you level up, your skills are getting better...thus you are most likely gaining some of those perks. Once we thought they were just silly powergaming additions...to me they are seeming more and more like godsends in a world like this. Mastery in armorer gives you the ability never run out of an armorer hammer...everything up till that is allowing your hammer to last longer, repair more, repair magic items. It is slowly giving you an advantage that allows for longer forays. The same goes for weapons, armor, blocking, spells. The more you train, the longer they last out. Spells cost less, do more damage. Shields recieve less to no damage. Blocking becomes more viable as you can disarm or counter. Weapons give more reason to actually risk power attacks. Truly, after you gain enough skills, you should notice a leveling out of the enemy difficulty...afterall, I haven't heard word from to many lvl 30 and above players yet.

Besides, if I really got bored with it, I could either tune down the slider or adjust the leveling system through CS myself. Hell I did it with morrowind's weapons at one point.

 

[Claw]

Also, you are limited to casting spells within your mastery level. If you get a spell at the apprentice level and you are a novice, you simply can't cast it.

Could you elaborate on this? I like this decision personally, although I am almost certain I'l dislike the way Bethesda implemented it.
Anyway, what interest me is how exactly the spells are limited. Are certain types of spell unavailable for novices, or is only the power of spells limited?
Personally, I'd like to see a system with minor spells like the Linear spells in Ultima VII in a freeform RPG, so characters with minor magic skills don't mimic spell casters on a lower level.

 

[Tintin]

Meaning that you got to Kvatch after levelling up quite a bit, so it's actually much harder than if you were level 1? I've heard that after a certain level, the levelled creatures kill all the troops there, thereby mobbing you alone.....

But wouldn't the troops be levelled as well, keeping it even?

 

[Section8]

Wow, I actually spent quite some time, reading intelligent discussion on the ESF, until it collapsed under the weight of "How fucked is the scaled loot/critter system" threads.

I was almost tempted to register to try and smack down all of the "open-endedness means ultimate freedom!" kiddies. Ultimate freedom isn't fun. Ultimate freedom would be:

"I want my motherfucking daedric dai-katana!"

!POP!

"Sweet! I didn't even have to do anything for my wish to be granted! Now I want to save the world!"

!POP! You Win!

"Super-sweet! I won Oblivion already. Mum, can you go put another motherfucking disc in my 360? I'm exercising my freedom to keep my fat arse parked on this couch! And then go buy me another motherfucking minute of entertainment for US$60!"

 

[kingcomrade]

"I want my motherfucking daedric dai-katana!"

I'm never going to get over that, Sec8

 

[Twinfalls]

That should be RPGCodex's by-line.

Replace 'The Disco Inferno of RPG sites' for 'I want my motherfucking daedric dai-Katana!' immediately, admin bitches.

 

[HardCode]

Also, I am playing an archer/thief, so perhaps combat is easier for fighters who dole out the damage like tanks,

What exactly is stopping your character? TES game character systems are "jack-of-all-trades". The only thing stopping you to "dole out the damage" is if you don't equip that weapon you found. There is no difference. The more you use a sword, the higher the skill, the same amount of damage you dole out as a fighter.

 

[HardCode]

I went into this one dungeon and ran into 6 skeletal warriors at the same time. A one-on-one fight with those things was challenging. Six was a nightmare. I really had to play to beat them.

Right, YOU had to play to beat them (i.e. twitch Tetris), your PLAYER CHARACTER didn't. Now you see why the Codex doesn't consider the game an RPG?

 

[Lumpy]

I went into this one dungeon and ran into 6 skeletal warriors at the same time. A one-on-one fight with those things was challenging. Six was a nightmare. I really had to play to beat them.

Right, YOU had to play to beat them (i.e. twitch Tetris), your PLAYER CHARACTER didn't. Now you see why the Codex doesn't consider the game an RPG?

And how the fuck is that different from Gothic?
That's why the game is an ACTION RPG, dumbfuck. It's still an RPG.

 

[RK47]

so next time i enter combat it shd just....i duno wtf u want in a real time game they still have stats that modify degree of successes.

u want a text scrolling play by play style where the game crunch numbers while u pick what moves you wanna do?

<in game text>
a scamp approaches.
what do you do?
-attack
-retreat
-cast spell
-open inventory
-ask yourself why you can't jump around him say 'hi', smack his head and start running to the exit while readying an arrow to shootback to try a lucky shot? oh wait it isn't rpg.

 

[EvoG]

What exactly is stopping your character? TES game character systems are "jack-of-all-trades". The only thing stopping you to "dole out the damage" is if you don't equip that weapon you found. There is no difference. The more you use a sword, the higher the skill, the same amount of damage you dole out as a fighter.

I'm focusing to make a specific kind of character.

Also, you are limited to casting spells within your mastery level. If you get a spell at the apprentice level and you are a novice, you simply can't cast it.

Could you elaborate on this? I like this decision personally, although I am almost certain I'l dislike the way Bethesda implemented it.
Anyway, what interest me is how exactly the spells are limited. Are certain types of spell unavailable for novices, or is only the power of spells limited?
Personally, I'd like to see a system with minor spells like the Linear spells in Ultima VII in a freeform RPG, so characters with minor magic skills don't mimic spell casters on a lower level.

Yup, you cannot even cast the spell. I'm really wanting a slightly better healing spell than the crap i have, but I require a 25 in restoration magic, and I'm sitting on 23.

 

[Old Scratch]

Also, I am playing an archer/thief, so perhaps combat is easier for fighters who dole out the damage like tanks,

What exactly is stopping your character? TES game character systems are "jack-of-all-trades". The only thing stopping you to "dole out the damage" is if you don't equip that weapon you found. There is no difference. The more you use a sword, the higher the skill, the same amount of damage you dole out as a fighter.

It doesn't work quite like that. You could make half-assed attempts to specialize in everything, but you'd always suck at non-primary skills, without going out of your way to increase the attributes that govern your secondary one's...in which case, your pimary skills would start to increase at a snails pace and your overall advancement would stagnate. Also, since the enemies in the game scale, you'd quickly be overwhelmed from a power standpoint by trying to spread your attribute increases too thin.

Is there really even any question at this point that Oblivion is an action-RPG, not a traditional role-playing game? People who follow this forum should know that better than anyone by now.

 

[AlanC9]

Yup, you cannot even cast the spell. I'm really wanting a slightly better healing spell than the crap i have, but I require a 25 in restoration magic, and I'm sitting on 23.

Funny; reading your other post, it didn't sound like you were ever planning to take damage again.

So you only need 2 more points? How does OB handle trainers? Is it as horribly broken as MW?