What is teh roleplaying?!

[Hazelnut]

My god Sarvis, you're taking your own sig far too literally on this one!! (8-bit theatre rules!!)

I think that you have PnP and a human DM on the brain in this discussion, where you possibly could encompass very obscure 'options' (although I would have thought the DM would get a bit annoyed after a while as well as the other players if you just became a baker), wheras VD is thinking more along the lines of computer based RPG's where the options has to be finite and I think he's correct that the situation & setting. These options are then more/less availible or preferable depending on the character role you're playing i.e. your input.

All computer based RPG's present the facade of a world as a gamespace, and sometimes the more options you have the easier that facade is to see through since there was not enough time to enable the world to react correctly to your actions & decisions (al la Morrowind)

Obviously it can go the other way too, with a game being too restrictive and the ultimate reduction ends up where you have no player choice in the character, since there is no point because it wouldn't make any difference to the gameworld/play. Like a FPS.

Personally I regard Deus Ex as the best implemented facade of a world and choice given the rudimentary dev tools they used. Have you ever taken a look at the maps in UnrealEd? It's really ever so simple, the mechanisms used, but the game really does make you feel like you have choice. Especially when dicussing how you got through a situation online - it's great to discover that loads of people did things in different ways.

H.

 

[Sarvis]

So just a quick question VD:

Do YOU choose your goals in life, or does someone else?

 

[Chefe]

hello world

 

[Vault Dweller]

I do, in a generic way. For example, let's say that I want to make games. That's one of my goals. Then the reality (setting & situation) kicks in and limits my choices to one choice only - a shareware game. Why? Well, I don't have time now to apply for a QA job and work my way up to the top, and even if I did, I won't be able to make a game that I want because of the current publishing trend. So, I have one choice. Within that choice, I have some subchoices like the engine, type of a game, etc. Well, for some reasons I've always liked RPGs, played a lot of RPGs, discussed and analyzed them to death, etc - so making an RPG is the logical and only choice.

I'd say that my available goals are defined by the settting (I live in a capitalist country so I can have a goal of running my own business, which I did), the situation (I have a family, my daughter goes to school in Toronto, so I can't have goals that would move me to Vancouver, for example), and the character (my skills and abilities - I'm creative enough to make a game, so I can, etc)

 

[Sarvis]

I do, in a generic way. For example, let's say that I want to make games. That's one of my goals. Then the reality (setting & situation) kicks in and limits my choices to one choice only - a shareware game. Why? Well, I don't have time now to apply for a QA job and work my way up to the top, and even if I did, I won't be able to make a game that I want because of the current publishing trend. So, I have one choice. Within that choice, I have some subchoices like the engine, type of a game, etc. Well, for some reasons I've always liked RPGs, played a lot of RPGs, discussed and analyzed them to death, etc - so making an RPG is the logical and only choice.

Several people were hired by BioWare just for making modules for NWN. Some were hired because of the models and hakpaks they made for NWN.

Once again your list of options falls short.

I'd say that my available goals are defined by the settting (I live in a capitalist country so I can have a goal of running my own business, which I did), the situation (I have a family, my daughter goes to school in Toronto, so I can't have goals that would move me to Vancouver, for example), and the character (my skills and abilities - I'm creative enough to make a game, so I can, etc)

Setting only limits your choice if you cannot move. Many people emigrate to America and start businesses. You are choosing to remain in Toronto because you decided you care more about your family than your goals. Lots of people can make a game without being creative. In fact isn't that a requirement to work at a company like EA?


In the end though, the point is that you chose to try becoming a game designer. No mysterious DM came along and said you must go become a game designer.

Roleplaying is creating a narrative, not following one. If a game gives you a goal and forces you towards that goal, you are just following a narrative. Minor choices along the way do not change that. After all, if viewing all web pages are the same choice because they don't lead to different meaningful results then all options for getting through a gate are the same because they lead to the same result: being on the other side.

Roleplaying is deciding you want to be on the other side, then creating a way to get there.

In a video game all the options have already been created by the designers.

 

[Vault Dweller]

For example, let's say that I want to make games. That's one of my goals. Then the reality (setting & situation) kicks in and limits my choices to one choice only - a shareware game. Why? Well, I don't have time now to apply for a QA job and work my way up to the top, and even if I did, I won't be able to make a game that I want because of the current publishing trend. So, I have one choice.

Several people were hired by BioWare just for making modules for NWN. Some were hired because of the models and hakpaks they made for NWN.

Once again your list of options falls short.

The answer is underlined. I know that there is more than one way into the industry, if you recall, I mentioned 3-4 ways earlier.

You are choosing to remain in Toronto because you decided you care more about your family than your goals.

Or my family limits my goals.

Lots of people can make a game without being creative. In fact isn't that a requirement to work at a company like EA?

True.

In the end though, the point is that you chose to try becoming a game designer. No mysterious DM came along and said you must go become a game designer.

I chose that because of all the factors influencing my decision. First, two games that I was anticipating got canned - BG3 and FO3. Second, lack of any interesting RPGs in development. Third, Prelude to Darkness, it inspired me. Without those 3 factors coming together I would have never started working on that project. So, what part of it was my own free will and choice, and what part was a logical response to a series of events (DM)?

Roleplaying is creating a narrative, not following one.

Creating a narrative within a flexible story, not instead of one. MW is a fine example of having all the choices and having nothing to do.

After all, if viewing all web pages are the same choice because they don't lead to different meaningful results then all options for getting through a gate are the same because they lead to the same result: being on the other side.

Too narrow. After all, I separated the non-work part into eating, flirting, browsing, and leaving. Same here. It doesn't matter what you had to say to talk your way through as long as you were able to.

Roleplaying is deciding you want to be on the other side, then creating a way to get there.

Let's say that you did. Let's say that the game doesn't force you to go through the gate and it was one of a few available options at this point. The ways are created in case you do decide to go through the gate.

In a video game all the options have already been created by the designers.

As long as they've got all the logical options, I'm happy. If I can think of something to do to progress through the game, and will find out that such an option exists, that's all I need to enjoy a role-playing game.

 

[EvoG]

Wow, another "Personal Discussion Space.tm" in which no one else can participate!

 

[Sarvis]

Wow, another "Personal Discussion Space.tm" in which no one else can participate!

That's funny, I don't <i>remember</i> seeing you try to participate...

Got an opinion? Give it.

 

[Chefe]

hello world

 

[Spazmo]

No one *can* or no one *wants to*? This is a really, really tired subject, which isn't a surprise as Sarvis is arguing it.

 

[EvoG]

Sarvis, my point EXACTLY...you didn't see it due to you and VD rolling around in the mud. Go back a page.


..angler, um, I'd like to think you know exactly what I'm talking about...


...and Spaz, even better yes, no one 'wants' to, hence the complete derailing of the thread. I was interested in talking about the topic at hand, but due to pages of monster quote chunks, most people dont bother, as their posts are swallowed whole and ignored more or less(See Sarvis' comment to me above) *shrugs*.

Ah well.

 

[Chefe]

hello world

 

[Jung]

Sarvis, my point EXACTLY...you didn't see it due to you and VD rolling around in the mud. Go back a page.


..angler, um, I'd like to think you know exactly what I'm talking about...


...and Spaz, even better yes, no one 'wants' to, hence the complete derailing of the thread. I was interested in talking about the topic at hand, but due to pages of monster quote chunks, most people dont bother, as their posts are swallowed whole and ignored more or less(See Sarvis' comment to me above) *shrugs*.

Ah well.

Start another thread about your pet topic.

 

[EvoG]

Um, if you knew what I meant then you know what my point is no?

The thread was about that OTHER thread regarding a bunch of people talking about what roleplaying is. When a thread becomes a discussion between two people trying to explain to eachother what THEY meant over and over again, it ceases to be about the thread overall, where there is a roundtable discussion, and more about those two people, semantics and proving their point...

...and, as worded by one of "those" people, Sarvis:

"That's funny, I don't remember seeing you try to participate...

Got an opinion? Give it.

...yet I posted on page two that NO ONE seems to have seen or be able to find in the flurry of VD vs. Sarvis postings.

My point clearer?

BTW, are you trying to antagonize me on some small level rather than adding anything to the conversation? I didn't address you specifically yet you seem compelled to bring about our own little OT discussion?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Sarvis, my point EXACTLY...you didn't see it due to you and VD rolling around in the mud.

You are just jealous because Sarvis and I have shared something special

...and Spaz, even better yes, no one 'wants' to, hence the complete derailing of the thread.

Derailing? Don't be such a noob, it's called evolution.

I was interested in talking about the topic at hand, but due to pages of monster quote chunks, most people dont bother

Hmm, looks like we need moron indicators. Damn those kids who can't read...

 

[EvoG]

Start another thread about your pet topic.

Wow this is baffling...MY pet topic?!?


Lemme ask this, as this begs to be answered(at least by me)....why is it, that the two of you (Angler and Jung), people I do not know on any level, find my posts seemingly inflamatory enough to ilicit mildly negative replies(at least in connotation) rather than leaving it well alone? Do you enjoy threads run by two people, or perhaps just this thread in particular, and that I'm trying to "break up the party" so to speak? Why was it important to you to saying anything to me? Is what I said so offensive that you just HAD to say something?

Carry on, and perhaps find someone to talk to that has more in common with your motivations and interests.

Cheers

 

[Chefe]

hello world

 

[Vault Dweller]

@EvoG

What's with all the "two people" references? It's not like I locked everyone out while I was chatting with Sarvis. Or was I supposed to stop the discussion just because nobody wanted or cared to join? Just curious.

 

[EvoG]

You are just jealous because Sarvis and I have shared something special

Bah...a bit I guess...

Derailing? Don't be such a noob, it's called evolution.

I disagree. Evolution generally has a positive connotation, whereas a species has evolved from one state to another, ideally 'better' state. Not all context requires or even should be evolved. This is completely non-standard. In the case of topics, which require a community (ideally) to participate, the moment you "evolve", the original topic ceases to be, thus invalidating comments to the original topic.

You guys are of course completely free to talk about whatever, but you are addressing only yourselves, again, as my post wasn't even noticed. So evolution or not, that is not the point, but simply that no one CAN join in as they are but a drop in the ocean of quote-replies, and as Spaz eloquently put, people don't 'want' to at that point, making the tread more or less dead to all but you and Sarvis.

Noob? Come now VD.

...moron indicators...

Ah yes, the oft bandied term that seems to be out of place here. Huh? Don't think "can't read" is the issue, but rather (again thanks Spaz), don't want to "bother reading".

This isn't about ability, its about desire and opportunity. I had a desire to see the thread become informative and truly "evolve" (not just the evolution of your exclusive conversation with Sarvis), but unfortunately did not have the opportunity to add anything to the topic.


No biggie. As you were.

 

[MINIGUNWIELDER]

just shows how much i fear that fallout3 will suck if made by these people

 

[EvoG]

@EvoG

What's with all the "two people" references? It's not like I locked everyone out while I was chatting with Sarvis. Or was I supposed to stop the discussion just because nobody wanted or cared to join? Just curious.

No no, I dont blame you guys on any level really...its not intentional. Its just that by the nature of how the discussion is going, perception is that this thread has become the unofficial exclusivity of you and Sarvis, denoted by the continuing 'back and forth' quote mammoths. Its not that we're not allowed, only that our posts get overshadowed, and even missed altogether (ask Sarvis). That and personally it gets exhausting reading all the back and forth when at times it seems to dwindle down to semantical arguments and deft manipulations of terms and meanings. I honestly stopped reading both of your posts, so I could very well be wrong, but thats the feeling I get.

 

[Jung]

Start another thread about your pet topic.

Wow this is baffling...MY pet topic?!?


Lemme ask this, as this begs to be answered(at least by me)....why is it, that the two of you (Angler and Jung), people I do not know on any level, find my posts seemingly inflamatory enough to ilicit mildly negative replies(at least in connotation) rather than leaving it well alone? Do you enjoy threads run by two people, or perhaps just this thread in particular, and that I'm trying to "break up the party" so to speak? Why was it important to you to saying anything to me? Is what I said so offensive that you just HAD to say something?

I don't know, it seemed like the logical thing to do. Start another thread about whatever it is you wanted to talk about. I can't really do anything about these guys butting heads endlessly.

 

[EvoG]

I don't know, it seemed like the logical thing to do. Start another thread about whatever it is you wanted to talk about. I can't really do anything about these guys butting heads endlessly.

Hehe, fair enough. I didn't see my post warranting a brand new topic, and thought it would suffice, at the same time, I thought you were being 'smartass-ish', you apparently were not. :D

Yea, this was less about "look at me and what I said!" and more about the pointlessness of saying anything at all in this particular case.


Cheers

 

[Chefe]

hello world

 

[Goliath]

just shows how much i fear that fallout3 will suck if made by these people

Morrowind with guns - what could be wrong with that?

In fact it will be far worse: Oblivion II with guns!

Looking at the direction they are heading (making combat even more dependent on player skill instead of character skill i.e. taking the RP out of RPG) I think that the design team will have its final epiphany after Oblivion: all those statistics just distract the player from looking at our bloomy 177x anti-aliased triple-double-super-filtered vertex-shaded almost natural looking grass!
Supported by market research that shows that the average Bethesda player can't read anyway they will completely do away with stats and make everything based on player skill. After all that's what REAL role-playing is all about, isn't it?

Fallout 3 will be the game Bethesda always wanted to make since the days of Arena: a goddamn Doom-clone!