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Rant: Why Fantasy RPGs Suck

Section8

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So, why this tirade about Morrowind? People thought it was too strange. A lot of whining on the forums about the strangeness of the setting, and I would be surprised if the same wasn't brought up by the morons who made up the focus groups for Oblivion. And we all know what that brought us.

The general moron doesn't want a strange game that it actually takes some imagination to understand and gives you the "fantastic". They want a game that treads known ground without deviating too much from the norm. They want a game that they immediately can "pick up and play" and feel familiar with.

I don't buy that. Shivering Isles is a conscious effort toward making something visually different, and that's one of the major selling points. Why do people lap up what (judging from screenshots) looks like a rehash of Morrowind, yet Morrowind was "too strange?"

I think a lot of it has to do with Morrowind being "ugly". It's overwhelmingly brown, and the pre-release trumpeting of cutting edge graphics seemed to apply only to the water.

It's all in how you sell the idea to people.
 

Jasede

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I think PS:T is a tad bit overrated. Oh, don't get me wrong, it's one of my favourite RPGs - I vastly prefer it to Fallout or Arcanum, even though I love Arcanum, but... people forget that the Planescape setting does, indeed, rock. Of course it was a great achievement to incorporate it so well into a game, but I think if we had a few more RPGs in the Planescape [or Dark Sun] setting, we would see much less cliche . We should credit the AD&D creators for thinking of such great settings.

Also, Forgotten Realms aren't that bad. Life in the Underdark is extremely alien and unforgiving. I'd love an RPG playing just there.
 
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Section8 said:
I don't buy that. Shivering Isles is a conscious effort toward making something visually different, and that's one of the major selling points. Why do people lap up what (judging from screenshots) looks like a rehash of Morrowind, yet Morrowind was "too strange?"

Morrowind was strange in other ways. There were strange looking natural creatures and odd-looking flora. And a lot of the culture was very different, including slavery and all that jazz.

Shivering Isles looks crazy, but it just feels like a bunch of "jokes" thought up by pre-teens, with not very unique creatures at all. Plus, it's an expansion, people love expansions to popular games. Not to mention Oblivion did have the marketing shitstorm behind it, and copious amounts of dumbing down.

Also, Forgotten Realms aren't that bad. Life in the Underdark is extremely alien and unforgiving. I'd love an RPG playing just there.

That would be nifty. And with the massive popularity of dark elves, it's a wonder they haven't.
 

Jasede

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Drow are an intriguing race, but don't forget the rich culture of both illithids and beholders, all alien mini-universes of their own, with their own philosophy and history. Or the interesting, theocratic Kuo-Toa, the joyless, hard-working duergar, the enigmatic deep gnomes or, or, or...
 
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Jasede said:
Drow are an intriguing race, but don't forget the rich culture of both illithids and beholders, all alien mini-universes of their own, with their own philosophy and history. Or the interesting, theocratic Kuo-Toa, the joyless, hard-working duergar, the enigmatic deep gnomes or, or, or...

Sure those would be interesting to people like us, but if someone made it, all they would have to do is throw playable dark elves and dual weildng in. Instant success.
 

Shannow

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Surgey said:
Not bad points, but Baldur's Gate also suffered from some of the same. Your first quest is to fight your way out of a monster-infested dungeon, then your second main quest is to kill a ton of monsters infesting a sewer/keep/dragon's den for money to pay the Thieves Guild. In addition, many of the sidequests thrown in there involve killing something. Trademeet involves killing Rakshasa (spelling) and other animals, the Copper Coronet involves you killing all the crooked guards and idiots in there...

What I'm saying is that NWN2 isn't the only game to do that, and it's probably not the best game to compare it to. Compare PST to some of the good RPG's to show why it's better than those, because as it stands, lots of other games are better than NWN2. Unless you're just showing that old RPG's tend to be better than modern ones. In which case, yeah, decent comparison.
Wouldn't a little variety be nice? How many games are similar to PS:T? How many are similar to BG(2)?
PS:T doesn't need to be better than "some of the other good RPG's" . It is enough that it is different and good. I cannot think of any game that is similar to it.
Some new game not on the trampled path of NWN(2), BG(2), etc would be nice. There will always be games like NWN(X) but where are the PS:T(2)s?
 

kingcomrade

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Hay I wrote this, it's blogarific:

Fantasy as a genre, especially in the gaming arena (which is what I'm going to be complaining about), has been rotting like a log in the swamp for the past twenty years. The only interesting new form of fantasy to present itself in that time has been steampunk (which is arguably science fiction). Most of the blame lies on the shoulders of the D&D juggernaut. D&D is a codex of all of the myriad fantasy clichés and is the basis, consciously or not, of modern fantasy games. It strangles creativity as the people who create their worlds have an enormous number of pre-existing ideas clogging their mind. Dungeons and Dragons it also is what many, if not most, people have come to expect from fantasy. Laziness is another factor. Why waste time coming up with your own stuff when you can replicate a setting that is already familiar? "New" fantasy settings are, depressingly often, simply derivatives of D&D, a new skin over an old model or a new flavor of the same substance. Rampaging greenskinned evil berserkers are orcs no matter what else you might call them. To be honest, D&D does have interesting ideas, however too often most are discarded in favor of the next elf subrace.

A sad, lonely example is the Planescape setting. Despite being originally based on the Water/Fire/Wind/Water cliché which really ought to be put to rest, the Planescape setting grew to explore the concept of moral alignment. It is filled with worlds reflecting the morality of their inhabitants. It's central hub is a town dominated by factions which are not defined by race or class but by philosophy: factions ranging from the Dustmen, who believe that life is sad shadow of a greater and happier previous existence, to the Society of Sensation which believes in the primacy of the physical senses as the only way to define reality.

A great example of the uniqueness of Planescape comes from the only cRPG (as far as I know) that takes place in the Planescape setting, Planescape: Torment. The developers turned many stock fantasy constructs and turned them on their head or omitted them altogether. Where are the elves and orcs? Where are the swords? Where is The Ancient Evil? Why am I not The Chosen One? What's with all this fucking text? Am I supposed to read it all?

PS:T revolves around dialogue and character development rather than combat which is almost certainly blasphemy. The story itself is leaps and bounds beyond normal fantasy fare. The central plot revolves around a man accepting his own damnation. There are subplots about people trying to be something that is contradictory to their nature and the torment (hence the title) that it can cause them and the people they know. There are motifs about communal reality and of thoughts, words, and ideas having physical power. I could go on nonstop about Planescape: Torment and its ideas...the setting, the characters, the plot and subplots, even the magic items with their interesting ways of being acquired and flavorful backstories. It is the polar opposite of what most people consider to be (and what I, unhappily, expect from) fantasy. With such an amount of creative input (and box art without an immodestly dressed woman) the game was destined to fail.

Compare this to World of Warcraft, an insanely popular "RPG" treadmill grindfest. A setting that is entirely derivative, with every fantasy cliché sporting a new appearance but nothing else. Warcraft's setting suffers from a disappointing lack of creativity in all areas except the visual. The races of the game are from a furry's dream; they are all anthropomorphic animals. Cow people, rat people, bear people, snake people, lizard people, pig people, wolf people, dog people, fish people, crab people, spider people, beetle people, even, for god's sake, tree people. Not to mention three elf subraces and counting (all of which are filled with hot elf chicks that will /dance at your command). There is such a thing as an appreciation of archetypes and then there is pissing on my face.

The necrosis that fantasy suffers from comes from a couple of sources. The first is the lack of effort on the part of the cultural pedestrians who create fantasy games. The second is the lack of demand for creativity on the part of consumers. The entire genre suffers from the tasteless teenage boys who dominate the gaming consumer base. To them, interesting ideas take too much effort. Video games aren't for thinking, they are for bloom, blood, and breasts. Breasts can be wonderful things but they should not be a crutch (or an excuse). The boob-centricity of modern fantasy games epitomizes the immaturity of both the consumption and production sides of the market.
Night_elf_rogue_by_xadhoom.jpg
 

Zomg

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Planescape is still a bit stupid for featuring (and I do mean featuring) the D&D two-dimensional alignment system. Having it in the context of the "wheel of alignment" outer planes is the best possible frame for it, though.

Edit - On the amnesia/stranger note, I think KotOR2 does an interesting thing with flashback roleplaying to deal with the character/player divide. I really enjoyed it a lot on a replay when I was able to grasp what exactly they were trying to do. The flashback idea was a thousand times more interesting than Obsidian's overt "Yuo got +1 content hurdal pointss!!" influence system which they've apparently institutionalized.
 

Callaxes

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I think the fantasy setting has been beaten down with an ugly stick so times, that anything that potentialy sticks out of the stereotype setting is hailed has a breakthrough in inovation and design.

The Elder Scrolls III - A volcanic island supporting ash deserts and a lush botanical alien inviroment with mushroom trees and large reptiles. THe NPCs range from wealthy demagogs to virtues tribesmen, the culture encompasing the dunmer is similar to the from the Dune novels. It's different from the calsic Tolkien scenarios but far from being novel quality, yet people praise it's originality and atmosphere.

The Ultima's and Ultilma Underworld's - Wow! Now this is cheesy! Save us from the gargoyles, 3 tall black hooded men with red eyes, be the avatar of goodness, save Brittania from an ugly red guy and go to a royal feast and then get trapped in a frozen castle. Nothing interesting here, but then add some deep philosofical messages, a system of virtues complete with it's own logo and flesh out every NPC there is the in game world and what do you get? A fucking awesome CRPG franchise. Mind you I think U4, U7 and UU1 were excellent, but I still think the series is a tad bit overrated.

Warcraft 3 - Oh my god! The orcs aren't evil, but the humans are! I still remember when people praised the game for taking this original aproach to races, despite the fact that everything else was a copy and paste version of Tolkien's Arda.

Prince of Persia (the new games) - Best story ever! It's so complex, it has time travel and magic in a real world inviroment. The prince's life is so complicated that nobody understands it, not every the people who made the game and every NPC that lives for more then 5 minutes is a female women girl hot chick. Seriously, I still don't understand why the fuck people still praise the storyline in the PoP games, it's so retarded.
 

Surgey

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While Eberron isn't as unique as Planescape, it's still quite cool and intriguing. Gaming in Eberron is focused more on the intrigue, high adventure, and pulp action (think of it as an action comic book taking place during the renaissance). Some people here don't like Eberron, but I rather like the setting. I enjoy it more than Forgotten Realms, anyway. I wouldn't mind seeing an RPG taking place in Eberron, but Forgotten Realms still seems to be king.

I was tempted to make a mod for NWN2 that puts it in Eberron. The massive towering cities and airships might be a bit difficult though, without modeling experience. Sharn is quite a cool city, though. I know NWN2 isn't that great, but I would love to see an Eberron game using the NWN2 engine.
 

Drakron

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Zomg said:
Planescape is still a bit stupid for featuring (and I do mean featuring) the D&D two-dimensional alignment system. Having it in the context of the "wheel of alignment" outer planes is the best possible frame for it, though.

Planescape was build around the Great Wheel concept that dates back to 1st edition, it was part of TRS mad dash of settings.

You have to understand the intent of Planescape was exploring a already existing part of D&D worlds, naturally it featured the alignment system since that is what the great wheel was all about.
 

Annonchinil

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Planescape's skin was extended to prostitutes, noble's and Annah, as far as I can remember.

Anyways I find it interesting that Star Wars features tons of different races in its world but the best science fiction (light and heavy) only features one (human) or at most another two or three other races.
 

psycojester

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Prince of Persia (the new games) - Best story ever! It's so complex, it has time travel and magic in a real world inviroment. The prince's life is so complicated that nobody understands it, not every the people who made the game and every NPC that lives for more then 5 minutes is a female women girl hot chick. Seriously, I still don't understand why the fuck people still praise the storyline in the PoP games, it's so retarded.[/quote

The first one was praised because it fairly simple fable about an arrogant prince learning some humility and accepting his mistakes.

The later games got stupid when the prince got EXXXXTETTTTREEEMEMEMEME!!!!! to the max and turned into the hardcore gritty anti-hero complete with vapid sluts inappropriately drssed for combat.

The two thrones tried to resolve the stupidity that was Warrior within and Kieleana's boobs and arse dress. It didn't get all the way there and it could have done a better job establishing the conflict between the prince and his sand parasite.

That said the voice in the princes head did a better job of establishing intelligent evil than the majority of the bioware games, it was interested in killing the Viser and restoring the prince to the throne via the most expedient method and was apathetic about those that had to die for the goal to be accomplished. It wasn't actively being a thuggish jerk and demanding money for good deeds, it just didn't give a shit about you and was fine with you dying if saving you was going to mean a detour or a delay.
 

Claw

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Vault Dweller said:
What I'm trying to say is predictable fantasy is the biggest flaw of the so-called fantasy games and books. Give us something different, put us in a strange place with strange rules.
Well, I don't think that's necessarily a flaw. I think there is a certain quality in a gameworld that the player can easily understand and thus behave reasonably without being explained what's right and wrong. Of course you can explain the setting in a manua, but in my experience just reading something once may not be enough. I don't like the idea of making stupid mistakes because I forgot something about the setting that my character ought to know.

However, an exotic setting may be interesting of course, and using a generic setting is hardly an excuse for an equally generic and predictable plot. Something interesting could still happen within that generic world. Since my character - presumably - isn't a psychic, not everthing has to be predictable, just those things I'd expect a person living in the world to understand.
There can and should be instersting details, interesting locations and an interesting plot.
 

DemonKing

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Well, most fantasy literature is generic bland stuff were the small band of munchkins take on the overwhelming forces of the evil evilord and somehow come out on top.

Not surprisingly, this is the basic premise of most fantasy RPGs.

They fit this model because rightly or wrongly, developers presume this is what the audience wants.

Planescape was indeed a brave game but it wasn't exactly accessible to Joe public like Baldur's Gate was.

Bottom line is that developers are businesses and they have to stay afloat. Unfortunately developing CRPG titles that deviate from fantasy cliche doesn't have a very good track record of financial success (BIS, Troika etc).
 

Texas Red

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By the way, that ADHD story about DS VD wrote actually made me laugh :D.
 

RGE

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Vault Dweller said:
Atrachasis said:
If you drop the PC into an exotic world, you have to explain the gap between the knowledge that the character is supposed to have of his surroundings, and the lack thereof on the part of the player. This often tends to lead to either a "Stranger in a Strange Land" scenario (that is one thing that Morrowind actually pulled off decently), or the amnesia one, which is itself a tired old clichee.
Not necessarily. In many cases the lack of this knowledge is understandable. Let's assume that you are an American, and I'll send you on a quest to Iran. How knowledgeable about your surroundings would you expect to be? Or the Soviet Russia?
How does that not qualify as a "Stranger in a Strange Land" scenario? You're (secretly) playing as a Superstar (not a "stranger") in a Strange Land? :roll:
 

Mayday

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Thank God the amnesia of the main character in the Witcher hasn't any impact on the plot (it's only there because otherwise it wouldn't make sense after the books).
 

jplestat

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Vault Dweller said:
jplestat said:
Wow, Same stupid argument. The only RPGs worth a damn are Fallout and Planescape. Ooooh, there's meaningfull dialogue choices. Here's the truth: they are not that great. At least your good for a laugh at your myopic tunnel vision of RPG games. It's more predicable and BORING than the fantasy RPGs you rant about. Get over yourself.
No more predictable and boring than your own vision of RPG games.
http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=198402

I stand by my view of Dungeon Lords. The Collector's Edition was quite an enjoyable and fun RPG. Probably not the greatest RPG ever, but a lot of fun. Your loss for being so closed minded on games, and not trying it. It does have few, if any, dialogue choices though as I remember.

None of that changes the fact that Fallout and PS:T are good games, no more no less. The environment does not make it better. You may prefer it and that is fine, but just because the fantasy environment has been somewhat homofenized in some ways, does not necessarily diminish the enjoyment of games in those environments.

Nor does "dialogue choices" or multiple paths necessarily make an RPG a better game. In your extremely narrow view of CRPGs you may personally think that is of the utmost imprortance, but I do not think that they are a critical elelemnt. Your preference and that is OK.

For me, PS:T was interesting for a while, but then it just seemed too dull once you were into it a while. I certainly liked it, and agree it is a good game, but nowhere near my top.

RPGCODEX is interesting because most of the people here, such as yourself, have such specific and narrow opinions of RPGS and are so extreme in your views. It does make for some good amusement, but in the end you guys say the same things over and over and over and there is really no substance behind what you say either.
 

Kraszu

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jplestat said:
Nor does "dialogue choices" or multiple paths necessarily make an RPG a better game. In your extremely narrow view of CRPGs you may personally think that is of the utmost imprortance, but I do not think that they are a critical elelemnt. Your preference and that is OK..

You don't think it is important becouse of your narrow view on crpg.
 

Nog Robbin

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jplestat said:
RPGCODEX is interesting because most of the people here, such as yourself, have such specific and narrow opinions of RPGS and are so extreme in your views. It does make for some good amusement, but in the end you guys say the same things over and over and over and there is really no substance behind what you say either.

I think the expectation of many CODEX members for an RPG is a game in which there is more to it (paths through it) than just killing things with ever more impressive weapons and more impressive clothing/armour. If combat is pretty much the only resolution it may as well be an action adventure.

On the fantasy world theme (the actual topic), it's true that most fantasy games are stuck in the same old cliche (or minor variants thereof). A lot of this is because this is what the public expect and will buy (Lord of the Rings for example). Breaking from this is naturally a risk for a publisher.
As someone else has stated, the setting alone, homogenised or not, should not mean the actual story and game have to follow the same old kill the evil overlord intent on taking over the earth theme. That they tend to shows a serious lack of creativity. And when you are not having to show creativity on the setting, that's a very poor thing indeed.
 

Kraszu

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jplestat haw unknown setting is more predicable then tone that was done 100 times?
 

Texas Red

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Kraszu said:
jplestat haw unknown setting is more predicable then tone that was done 100 times?

That guys is a troll and nothing more. Apparently to him dialogs and unique settings are not strong points in RPGs. And apparently jplestat is only here because he finds our narrow views amusing.

Maybe he is Volourn(who has been missing for several days). He uses the same tactics of trolling by which he argues against all of the general views of a particular forum. He probably goes around saying that Earth is flat just to get attention.
 

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