Rant: Why Fantasy RPGs Suck

[Surgey]

NWN2 is hardly the ideal specimen to compare other RPG's to... A good setting alone doesn't make a good game.

 

[DarkSign]

Where are the John Waters and William Borroughs of the cRPG world? The ones that stretch the limits so much that the golden mean becomes a place where you can really take some chances?

 

[Goliath]

The problem is that RPGs are designed by people who are (at best) qualified for two things: programming and game design. So why are you surprised that the plot and the characters suck? Plot / character / world design should be handled by professional dramatists and novelists, working together with the game designers. Betrayl at Krondor is the only RPG I know which did that, and it certainly rocked.

However, how many "gamers" would actually apprechiate an RPG with literal quality? I am afraid not too many. Most of them want nothing but jiggle tech and orc smashing action.

 

[merry andrew]

The problem with Torment is it's too hard to figure out how uber The Nameless One is. RPGs by definition are about being the ultimate hero of destinies and not having to really think about it.

 

[Dpayne]

The generic Fantasy setting is one of the reasons the first Baldur's Gate is difficult to get into.

The second actually does a little bit better of a job, and it incorporates lot of the more interesting things on the periphery of D&D in my opinion. Throne of Bhaal is once again generic.

 

[Texas Red]

By the way, PS:T had a huge "bikini armor" syndrome. Look at the character descripition in your journal and you will see that every woman has implanted tits and the clothing doesnt cover anything. And Annah...

 

[Dpayne]

Falls From Grace is actually pretty tame considering she's a succubus and most RPG females are megawhores.

Besides TNO is the most scantily clad character.

BG and Icewind Dale games don't have bikini Armor syndrom interestingly enough.

 

[Edward_R_Murrow]

By the way, PS:T had a huge "bikini armor" syndrome. Look at the character descripition in your journal and you will see that every woman has implanted tits and the clothing doesnt cover anything. And Annah...

It's been awhile since I played Planescape last....but I though Fall-From-Grace dressed sort of conservatively to go with the whole "chaste succubus" shebang. I could be wrong though. Other than that, I do recall you being right.

Besides TNO is the most scantily clad character.

And obviously the sexiest....

BG and Icewind Dale games don't have bikini Armor syndrom interestingly enough.

Cough....Yxunomei....Amelysan....Bodhi....I guess all female villains are supersluts.....

 

[psycojester]

Planescape, despite being based on the Earth/Fire/Wind/Water

To be fair there was a lot more shit out there than just the elemental planes. The conceptual ones like Pandemonium and Caraceria(sp?) were fairly interesting

 

[Dpayne]

Vampire women are sluts anyhow, and I remember Melissan wearing pretty modest clothing.

 

[MisterStone]

Another thing that pisses me the hell off is how magic is depicted in fantasy RPGS... not just computer games, but all RPGs period (I don't play pen and paper RPGs anymore, but still...):

In the typical fantasy rpg setting, magic can do all kinds of crazy shit. It lets people fly, shoot death rays, heal people instantly, raise people from the dead, creates massive explosions, etc. Sure that's all fun and games... but its stupid. If it were possible for someone to learn how to shoot lightning or death rays or massive explosive fireballs from their hands, then military technology would be obsolete. Just as firearms came to dominate the battlefield and made plate and chain armor obsolete, this kind of magic would supplant all other kinds of weapons. If it is possible to learn magic like this, then EVERYONE would try learn it. Other kinds of magic would transform society as well... I mean, if people could fly or teleport, that would change everything from architecture to transportation to the entire economy of a world. Would people still wear plate mail and live in castles in a world like this? Give me a fucking break!

Magic in fantasy RPGs is just stupid. Its too easy, too powerful, and the idiotic hacks who design these fantasy settings are too ignorant and unimaginative to make it believable.

I'd like to see a game where magic is not something that gives characters "super powers", but is rather a kind of knowledge skill... think the "science" skill in Fallout. Being good at a magic skill would mean you know a lot about certain things, and perhaps could work miracles, but only in limited contexts (ie, doing a ceremony with some very specific items, in a special place, after having made extensive preparations, and/or on a certain special time of the year, etc.). Historically, this is what people thought magic was like. The whole "walking artillery piece" concept was created by DnD and the like. (There was a thread here about this a while back)

 

[Ladonna]

Fair enough points, most of which I agree with.

If you can make these ideals a cashcow then you will see them again, but since they have never been something that sells well, the industry will steer clear of them. I guess its up to the indy devs to do the work in this department. Its sad that everything has to revolve around sales these days, I am trying to think when this argument actually entered the equation.

 

[MisterStone]

Its sad that everything has to revolve around sales these days, I am trying to think when this argument actually entered the equation.

Its always been about sales. The difference is that they're selling to a much less sophisticated (=stupider) overall audience these days. I mean, who in the 1980s had a home computer? Adults, and computer nerd teenagers... not so much spoiled yuppie spawn or potsmoking slacker man-children.

 

[galsiah]

Also, i'm not too sure that an original setting is worth all the effort required to develop, especially from a business standpoint. You can still make a great game without spending all that time developing Lore, culture and new races and animals.

If it's just a new paint-job over the same ideas/mechanics, then it probably isn't. That's why you don't create a new setting in isolation from gameplay ideas/structure/mechanics - you do it in tandem with gameplay.

The story, purpose, and many mechanics in Planescape would not fit with a conventional fantasy setting. Probably the greatest asset of an original setting (not that Planescape is genuinely original, of course) is the design freedoms it grants you. You can do weird, wonderful and interesting things with artwork/lore - but more importantly, you can do the same with the gameplay. Even something like PS:T didn't take full advantage of this - being horribly tethered to tiresome RPG mechanical cliché by a D&D license.

An original setting with unoriginal gameplay is a senseless waste of opportunity.

 

[gc051360]

It's the same reason as everything else. Companies don't like to take risks. Those types of things sell better. They appeal more to some focus group somewhere I guess. They are less risky than trying something new. Once in a while something new comes out and is great, and it throws a wrench in the system. Then what happens?? Everyone copies that...it becomes watered down...it starts to suck. It is the circle of life.

 

[jplestat]

I've been taking to a friend the other day and the subject of Planescape: Torment awesomeness came up. My friend didn't play it. I gave him THE speech. He asked me if the game was easy to get into, which forced me to resurrect my first impressions of the game, which, in turn, is why you are reading this rant now. Enjoy.

Fantasy RPGs usually suck because the "fantasy" aspect isn't overly fantastic. In fact, it's generic and fucking bland. Let's say you bought a new fantasy RPG and installed it. What do you have there? A young guy/gal in a small place forced to get the fuck out and explore the very predictable world and save it. When you see a town, you know pretty much what to expect. It's not a place of wonder and strange customs, it's a place to get quests and buy/sell shit. You can easily replace a town with 3-4 NPCs standing in the middle of fucking nowhere offering quests and shopping. In fact that's probably would be more interesting than a generic and boring as fuck fantasy town #3471.

Now, compare it to Planescape: Torment. You wake up in a mortuary. Dead. Yes, DEAD. A gravity defying skull starts chatting with you.

WHAT! THE! FUCK!

That alone throws you off. Suddenly, you realize that you are definitely not in the motherfucking Kansas anymore. The rules are completely different and you have no idea what they are. Where are the familar elves and orcs? Why the ancient evil (TM) isn't stirring? Where is a kind lord of the realm to send you on a mission of great importance (to kill some poor fuckers)?

You open the door. OMG! Zombies are everywhere! Ok, I know where this is going. Where is my trusty weapon... WAITAMINUTE! The zombies are not attacking. You can kill them, of course, but you can also walk around studying them and even get some unusual items from them. You finally manage to leave the mortuary. You are in a city, and what a city it is. It's a city of doors, filled with portals that can take you anywhere, assuming you have a key. You see a bar, a familiar place in this strange land. The first thing you see is a floating, burning, yet still alive body - a lovely conversation piece of decor. Some ugly looking demons are having a drink; they greet you as an old friend. Great, that's just fucking great. Wait, it gets better though. The bartender casually informs you that he still has your eye - my WHAT? - and if you have the money, you can have it back. You buy the eye, mostly because it's so different from the usual selection of RPG goodies, wondering what the fuck you should do with it. An insane option to rip out your existing eyeball and shove in the, uh, new one, that was floating in a jar like a pickled egg a minute ago, presents itself. You do it and memories start pouring in. At this point you are absolutely lost. You, the player, are a stranger in a strange fucking land, and that's the fucking beauty of it.

Your quest? To find out who you are. *sigh* What, you guys ran out of demons to kill and worlds to save?

Let's compare it to the recently released NWN2:

A young guy/gal in search of adventure living a small village - check. The village is attacked by monsters killing everything in sight - check. The monsters are after you, because you are - you better sit down - the chosen one and special in every possible way - check. You leave your village and fight your way through to a large town filled with thieves who steal shit and guards who, well, guard shit - check. You accidentally run into your enemies in every major dungeon, spoiling their plans - check. Instead of throwing everything they've got at you, they continue to underestimate you, until you level all the way up to the MegaUberPrestigeFighter, the Destroyer of Worlds and Crusher of Hopes - check.

Don't know about you, but I can hardly handle all the excitement.

What I'm trying to say is predictable fantasy is the biggest flaw of the so-called fantasy games and books. Give us something different, put us in a strange place with strange rules. Discovering these rules, understanding laws, habits, and customs of these places and its denizens is an important aspect of gameplay that shouldn't be discarded.

Wow, Same stupid argument. The only RPGs worth a damn are Fallout and Planescape. Ooooh, there's meaningfull dialogue choices. Here's the truth: they are not that great. At least your good for a laugh at your myopic tunnel vision of RPG games. It's more predicable and BORING than the fantasy RPGs you rant about. Get over yourself.

 

[Kingston]

The traditional fantasy setting has simply lost the "fantasy" part. Everything is predictable and lame and something you are completely used to by now. Orcs are evil, elves love nature and pwn with magic, dwarves live in mines and speak in scottish accents. It appears that fantasy elements only inculde other races and magic.

Are the actually any fantasy settings that only contained humans? No silly orcs, elves, dwarves, goblins etc. ?

 

[sqeecoo]

I'd like to see a game where magic is not something that gives characters "super powers", but is rather a kind of knowledge skill... think the "science" skill in Fallout. Being good at a magic skill would mean you know a lot about certain things, and perhaps could work miracles, but only in limited contexts (ie, doing a ceremony with some very specific items, in a special place, after having made extensive preparations, and/or on a certain special time of the year, etc.). Historically, this is what people thought magic was like. The whole "walking artillery piece" concept was created by DnD and the like. (There was a thread here about this a while back)

My thoughts exactley

 

[Ladonna]

Wow, Same stupid argument. The only RPGs worth a damn are Fallout and Planescape. Ooooh, there's meaningfull dialogue choices. Here's the truth: they are not that great. At least your good for a laugh at your myopic tunnel vision of RPG games. It's more predicable and BORING than the fantasy RPGs you rant about. Get over yourself.

Translation: Lewl, you suck, and ur wrong! Those games suck, they just do. Others don't but i don't know wat ones. And dialogue sucks too.

Thank you for your contribution.

 

[Shannow]

Wow, Same stupid argument. The only RPGs worth a damn are Fallout and Planescape. Ooooh, there's meaningfull dialogue choices. Here's the truth: they are not that great. At least your good for a laugh at your myopic tunnel vision of RPG games. It's more predicable and BORING than the fantasy RPGs you rant about. Get over yourself.

Translation: Lewl, you suck, and ur wrong! Those games suck, they just do. Others don't but i don't know wat ones. And dialogue sucks too.

Thank you for your contribution.

Nah, that was just a fly buzzing over shit and trying to fan some of the smell over to VD

I wish those trolls would at least try to back their trolling up with arguments. *sigh*

 

[Vault Dweller]

Wow, Same stupid argument. The only RPGs worth a damn are Fallout and Planescape. Ooooh, there's meaningfull dialogue choices. Here's the truth: they are not that great. At least your good for a laugh at your myopic tunnel vision of RPG games. It's more predicable and BORING than the fantasy RPGs you rant about. Get over yourself.

No more predictable and boring than your own vision of RPG games.
http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=198402

 

[Vault Dweller]

At least somebody says that NWN2 is as boring as a soap opera.

Unfortunately, it is. The very first quest NWN2 game offers you is "Take this furs, sell them, buy a bow, and report to your father". I know it's a tutorial, but how stupid the intended audience is? I've already raised this question in the past:

Games rated R for Retarded

Finally had a chance to play Dungeon Siege 2. The game sucks for all the reasons Saint mentioned here and then some, but that's not the point.

So, I'm playing the demo and get the quest to destroy 4 towers that don't really look like towers worth making so much fuss about, but that's not the point either. I look in my trusty journal and see "Find the first Morden tower and burn it down" (or something like that). Ok. Then I see "Find the second Morden tower and burn it down just like first tower". Hmm, Ok. Then "Find the third Morden tower and burn it down just like first and the second towers" and finally "Find the fourth Morden tower and burn it down just like first, second, and the third tower".

At this point a valid question is "what is the target audience?" Clearly some poor ADD motherfuckers are a big part of it. It's like you play the game, burn down the first tower, see something shiny which the game doesn't have the shortage of, and then see some weird tower-like structure and have no clue why it's there. You check the journal and suddenly you start recalling burning down one of those suckers. A-ha! You know what to do now! So, you play some more, and see a weird tower-like structure. You get this feeling that you've already seen it before and somehow it's important to you, but you don't have a fucking clue. Thank God, you wrote something on your hand - find teh journal, don't trust teh skull! You click on the journal icon and read "...just like the first, second, and the third tower!" Tada! The unplayable game is playable once again! Another idiot can appreciate the beauty and creativity of Dungeon Siege 2: The Bourne Identity!

Anyway, let's forget about the tutorial and see what kinda quest goodness Act 1 is loaded with. The town of West Harbor is under attack. Probably by the town of East Harbor. Something needs to be done! To arms!

Quest: Loot the house! Yes, seriously. Some guy tells you to go to his house and take everything (as if a kleptomaniac like you needs encouragement). You can take a nap while you are inside. Yes, I know there is a town under attack, but it can and will wait. Many looted houses later, the town is safe once again. You, however, will never be the same country bumpkin again because now you are a man on a mission like the Blues Brothers.

Your first task is to go to the swamps nearby, KILL MANY MONSTERS, and pick up the silver shard. You can't stay in your little village anymore, so let's hit the road!

First stop: a friendly inn. Go in and KILL MANY MONSTERS.
Second stop: Fort Locke. It's a wooden fort, suffering from bandits, undead, and designers' creativity. The solutions to the first two problems are obvious: KILL MANY BANDITS and KILL MANY UNDEAD. I couldn't find any solution to the third problem though.
Third stop: Elanee, a joinable NPC! KILL MANY MONSTERS, follow Elanee, then KILL MANY MONSTERS again.
Fourth stop: Highcliff - a place where you get a ship, but you can't get a ship until ... yes, you guessed it ... YOU KILL MANY MONSTERS that attack ships.

Is it a great game design or what?

 

[Surgey]

Not bad points, but Baldur's Gate also suffered from some of the same. Your first quest is to fight your way out of a monster-infested dungeon, then your second main quest is to kill a ton of monsters infesting a sewer/keep/dragon's den for money to pay the Thieves Guild. In addition, many of the sidequests thrown in there involve killing something. Trademeet involves killing Rakshasa (spelling) and other animals, the Copper Coronet involves you killing all the crooked guards and idiots in there...

What I'm saying is that NWN2 isn't the only game to do that, and it's probably not the best game to compare it to. Compare PST to some of the good RPG's to show why it's better than those, because as it stands, lots of other games are better than NWN2. Unless you're just showing that old RPG's tend to be better than modern ones. In which case, yeah, decent comparison.

 

[Vault Dweller]

What I'm saying is that NWN2 isn't the only game to do that, and it's probably not the best game to compare it to.

The reason I compared it to NWN2 is because NWN2 is the latest & greatest, hailed by many as "teh classic RPGs are back!".

If you drop the PC into an exotic world, you have to explain the gap between the knowledge that the character is supposed to have of his surroundings, and the lack thereof on the part of the player. This often tends to lead to either a "Stranger in a Strange Land" scenario (that is one thing that Morrowind actually pulled off decently), or the amnesia one, which is itself a tired old clichee.

Not necessarily. In many cases the lack of this knowledge is understandable. Let's assume that you are an American, and I'll send you on a quest to Iran. How knowledgeable about your surroundings would you expect to be? Or the Soviet Russia?

As long as the setting is introduced slowly, giving the player time to process and understand what he sees/reads, the gap will not be an issue. A lot of info could be mentioned matter-of-factly instead of presenting it as dry facts that you are supposed to know.

 

[Kraszu]

I don't mind cliché like amnesia to be used actually, it is just good pretest to present story from some point and you are free to present whatever story you want, amnesia explanation is not restricting, it makes you look for answers if they are good I don't mind amnesia.