Moron Alert! CDProject redefines RPGs

[Vault Dweller]

What game are they making, anyhow?

The Witcher

 

[Dhruin]

It sounds to me like they want to create a game that is not a rpg but call it a rpg anyway. It also seems a bit bitchy to make comments about most other developers using cliches without actually giving an example or two.

I assume you just wanted to join in on the bitching. If you actually want answers to these questions, they're pretty easy to find - there aren't too many AAA games where the developers have given out so much info so this far from release. Oh - it's definitely an RPG.

Just so I understand: it's "bitchy" to make a comment about cliches but it would be less bitchy if they picked an argument with other developers by criticising their product?

What about character choice? IMO, one of the key features of a rpg is that you can choose to play different roles (and this goes beyond selecting different stats in the character creation screen). Does the fact that the combat system is considered so essential mean that the author is asserting that there is no place for non-combat based characters in rpgs?

It's an action/RPG - simple fact. Combat will play a central role. There's still more non-combat options in this action/RPG than most other "traditional" RPGs.

It may look pretty with all those animations but how does it play? Are we talking about a rpg or a fencing simulator?

Again, if you want answers they are easy to find. You do realise this article was at FiringSquad - an action and hardware site, right? You don't think they might have responded appropriately for that audience?

What excatly do they mean by "realism"? Do they want to make the game really hard? Or do they want to make the game "gritty"? Or something entirely else (the two possibilites I mentioned were based on their "over-polishing the rough realities" comment)? What exactly are they referring to?

How do they intend reconciling their plot orientatedness with their "freedom in making decisions"? Certainly it can be done (and if done well can help create a great rpg) but I am concerned that self-confessed "newbies" throw around such concepts without realising how they are linked.

Again, it's pretty easy to find the answers you are asking. Just in case you are really interested..."realism" would probably refer to NPC schedules with a day/night cycle, more bandits etc out at night, the ability to attack every NPC, some events continue independent of the NPC so you may arrive at different points and architecture/building layouts that are taken from real-world medieval examples.

I could be wrong but I also wonder if they are taking KOTOR as the basic rpg model they seek to redefine...

No idea where you get that from. This is CD Projekt's first project so they well screw the whole thing up but they're not entirely clueless. As the Polish distie for Black Isle and BioWare they have localised stuff from Fallout to NWN.

And this is the point. Who is the game being made for? It sounds to me like they are trying to create rpgs for players who don't usually play rpgs...

That being said, their whole vision seems to be filled with buzzwords rather than detail...

Do some research. I can understand people not being interested in an action/RPG or the combat system or having to play Geralt - all valid complaints - but there's a a lot to like for genuine RPG fans. It might suck complete ass in the end but I don't know a commercial project that is at least trying to do some of the things they have in mind and they have the resources to actually finish it, unlike some.

 

[Jasede]

--- I --- want --- eat --- your --- brains ---

AHHHHHH!!! There are zombies everywhere in this thread!!!! Somebody stop them!

Please forgive me my extreme ineptitude when it comes to the use of English, but what is a 'zombie' in the context of a forum? An undead poster whose soul loved the codex that much that not even death itself could stop him from posting here? Or is it, as I believe to have deduced, the word for someone who mindlessly repeats the general forum oppinion in order to raise his post count and/or to seem witty?
Like posting 'Oblivion sucks', 'Fallout rules' or 'VD is right - he's the ruler of the known universe'?

In retrospect, my last post on this topic was devoid of anything really original -- it was just a failed attempt at beeing comic, wasn't it? Sorry if that might have put some of you off.

But, returning to the topic at hand, I still believe that it is a rather ... arrogant claim to say that one is redefining a well defined genre. But maybe they actually meant that they wanted to, well, put the 'role' back into crpg, because this has come out of focus nowadays, as all of us very well know. This would actually be a very good thing, wouldn't it?

But still... As has been stated and mindlessly repeated a myriad of times, the announcement of redefiniton still feels like looking at the eely, slimy face of arrogance itself.

 

[7th Circle]

I assume you just wanted to join in on the bitching. If you actually want answers to these questions, they're pretty easy to find - there aren't too many AAA games where the developers have given out so much info so this far from release. Oh - it's definitely an RPG.

I'll freely admit that all that I know about the game has come from the interview in question.

However, I think you've misinterpreted the emphasis of my comments. According to the interview, this isn't just a game but a redefinition of the genre. This necessitates a different level of reply to it. I am not previewing their efforts to make a computer game but commenting on their analysis and proposed redefinition of the genre in question.

Just so I understand: it's "bitchy" to make a comment about cliches but it would be less bitchy if they picked an argument with other developers by criticising their product?

No, I am not suggesting that they say "game x is cliche ridden". I am suggesting that they say that they actually list what they consider to be the cliches in the industry. I believe that this is less "bitchy" (perhaps "fairer" is better than "less bitchy") because it allows other developers to defend themselves through explicit reference to the cliches identified. Just saying "most rpgs are cliche ridden" makes it harder for them to reply. (I condede that later in the interview they make a half-hearted attempt at this.)

It's an action/RPG - simple fact. Combat will play a central role. There's still more non-combat options in this action/RPG than most other "traditional" RPGs.

What worries me here isn't so much the game per se but they are setting out to "redefine" the genre in this way. I don't have a problem with action/RPGs and I'll happily play (some of) them. What does concern me is that they are attempting to "redefine" a rpg as an action/rpg.

Again, if you want answers they are easy to find. You do realise this article was at FiringSquad - an action and hardware site, right? You don't think they might have responded appropriately for that audience?

Certainly but what should one make of a developer who goes to such a site and gives an interview discussing how they are going to redefine the whole genre? If, at FiringSquad, they said, "we are making a new type of rpg more suited to a wider audience" then I wouldn't have blinked. However, their very comment about redefining the genre means that their comments needs to be considered beyond the narrow confines of the audience they are writing for.

Again, it's pretty easy to find the answers you are asking. Just in case you are really interested..."realism" would probably refer to NPC schedules with a day/night cycle, more bandits etc out at night, the ability to attack every NPC, some events continue independent of the NPC so you may arrive at different points and architecture/building layouts that are taken from real-world medieval examples.

This sounds rather Oblivionesque and, while I have a few lingering concerns, I suspect that TES:IV will be at least a reasonable game.

No idea where you get that from.

good v evil, linearity etc. (NB: I haven't played KOTOR II).

Do some research. I can understand people not being interested in an action/RPG or the combat system or having to play Geralt - all valid complaints - but there's a a lot to like for genuine RPG fans. It might suck complete ass in the end but I don't know a commercial project that is at least trying to do some of the things they have in mind and they have the resources to actually finish it, unlike some.

Here's the rub.

The interview in question, to my mind, appears shows a lot of hubris in terms of how the approach taken in their game will redefine the genre. Now, I can either take this as
(a) they really believe this
or
(b) this is just pr

My post assumed (a). On this level, I don't think it is unreasonable to challenge their comments about what they think a rpg is. You seem to be saying "well the game might be quite reasonable in terms of role-playing" and indeed it might...but that misses the bigger picture here. In the interview, they are setting out a rpg manifesto and consequently any rpg features that are lacking should be commented on.

If (b) is the answer (and I certainly don't dismiss this possibility) then there isn't really a lot to say except that a company needs to live with the image they project...

 

[Vault Dweller]

Re: --- I --- want --- eat --- your --- brains ---

'VD is right - he's the ruler of the known universe'

I am?

 

[Greatatlantic]

@Jasede, you are on the right track. To post in a thread that hasn't been touched in months is called grave digging- especially if you don't add anything original to the topic. And, we all know where there is a graveyard, there is zombies. That's a proven scientific fact. The fact a bunch of posters started posting here again made me think of something out of a Romero movie, hence my post.

 

[Killzig]

Next there’s combat. Here we’ve introduced a unique system based on medieval fencing arts and techniques enhanced by magic.

I stopped reading there. They've revolutionized a genre marred by swords and magic by introducing ... swords and magic.

Do some research. I can understand people not being interested in an action/RPG or the combat system or having to play Geralt - all valid complaints - but there's a a lot to like for genuine RPG fans. It might suck complete ass in the end but I don't know a commercial project that is at least trying to do some of the things they have in mind and they have the resources to actually finish it, unlike some.

Is your mom working on the project or just fluffing all the designers? Don't get your panties in a twist, its just another fantasy dungeon crawler.

 

[Dhruin]

Honestly, a detailed "analysis" of some stupid PR line is a waste of time. I could mount a reasonable argument that there hasn't been an action/RPG that takes (many) RPG values this seriously before, which makes The Witcher a relatively unique proposition...but why bother? I couldn't care less what their silly PR department says - only what the gameplay is like.

@Killzig - it isn't a dungeon crawler.

 

[Killzig]

@Killzig - it isn't a dungeon crawler.

I'm sorry, its a "canal" crawler.

Dungeon Lords fed us a whole boat load of shit before release too. I'm surprised that given your experience at RPGDot (ie watching games progress from previews to full releases) you're still so bright eyed and bushy tailed.

 

[Dhruin]

Sure - be cynical; that's fair enough in the light of outright liars like Bradley. I don't know if CD Projekt will pull it off or even if they can get basic shit like the translation from Polish right. And I do have several reservations.

But at least I've seen several videos with examples of multiple solutions and different paths (including a couple that haven't been released to the public - but everyone has at least seen the getting-past-the-guard trailer), talked with them a fair bit and had colleagues see it at both E3 and Leipzig.

 

[yipsl]

@Jasede, you are on the right track. To post in a thread that hasn't been touched in months is called grave digging- especially if you don't add anything original to the topic. And, we all know where there is a graveyard, there is zombies. That's a proven scientific fact. The fact a bunch of posters started posting here again made me think of something out of a Romero movie, hence my post.

On the other hand, what do we call creating a new thread that doesn't discuss anything new but rehashes a thread months old? Should those who start and post in the new thread be called necromancers? Trying to summon the spirits of debates that have long passed over to the an otherworldly archive status.

Lets, face it, it's true here, even more true at the Oblivion boards, and most likely true elsewhere on the net: new threads are often rehashes of the same arguments found in abandoned threads, regardless of the reason for the new thread.

 

[7th Circle]

Honestly, a detailed "analysis" of some stupid PR line is a waste of time. I could mount a reasonable argument that there hasn't been an action/RPG that takes (many) RPG values this seriously before, which makes The Witcher a relatively unique proposition...but why bother? I couldn't care less what their silly PR department says - only what the gameplay is like.

That's a fair enough position to take but, if the game becomes very successful, I am just concerned that the "redefintion" PR line will take a life of its own. Of course, as you indicate, the effects of this will be dependent on what the gamplay actually is like.

Lets, face it, it's true here, even more true at the Oblivion boards, and most likely true elsewhere on the net: new threads are often rehashes of the same arguments found in abandoned threads, regardless of the reason for the new thread.

Yeah, that's often true. Many threads in various forums often descend into arguing about points that have been argued over repeatedly.

 

[Killzig]

Sure - be cynical; that's fair enough in the light of outright liars like Bradley. I don't know if CD Projekt will pull it off or even if they can get basic shit like the translation from Polish right. And I do have several reservations.

Sorry, I've always been of the opinion that to be a journo you've got carry around a big ole bag of skepticism everywhere you go.

But at least I've seen several videos with examples of multiple solutions and different paths (including a couple that haven't been released to the public - but everyone has at least seen the getting-past-the-guard trailer), talked with them a fair bit and had colleagues see it at both E3 and Leipzig.

The problem with trailers, screenshots, etc. Is that they're only showing you the very best bits. Its the same problem with movies. A bad film can have a great trailer and vice versa. Until I can see a playable demo (which sometimes aren't even representitive of the final product themselves), or have heard from someone who's actually played the game for a bit, on their own without a dev standing over their shoulder, priming them for loving the game.. I'm not going to jump on the bandwagon. I'll keep my distance and keep on waiting. Right now, the only thing I know for certain is that its action oriented and its in a fantasy setting; that's two strikes against it in my book. I don't speak for everyone, I'm sure there are people out there who love ACTION + FANTASY, but when the PR monkeys start hollering about revolutionizing a genre with magic and swords the skeptic monkey starts frothing at the mouth and hollering for blood.

 

[Dhruin]

All that would be fine, Killzig, I were responding to comments like that. I replied to a guy who said "is this even an RPG" and "what does realism mean" when that info is readily available - that's all. I have plenty of doubts about the combat and playing one fixed character for starters, so I think my "journalistic" skepticism is safe. I think overreacting to a PR line is going entirely the other way.

 

[Sol Invictus]

1) Dungeon Lords looked like crap in screenshots and videos.

2) The Witcher does not look like crap in any way or form.

Remember people, Heuristic Park isn't making The Witcher.

 

[Twinfalls]

, but when the PR monkeys start hollering about revolutionizing a genre with magic and swords the skeptic monkey starts frothing at the mouth and hollering for blood.

jesus fuckin christ can't you guys cut these people some fuckin slack?

Point is - these may be coked up PR rhesus monkeys, but they aint coked up big Fuckin established corporate EA/MS/Bonoware motherfucking PR rhesus monkeys.

These are dudes from fuckin Poland. And like the Gothic devs, and like all the other Euro devs, they are the ONLY FUCKING HOPE WE HAVE, FUCKSTICKS.

So until this stupid board with its continual denial of the relevance of political identity to its subscribers' angst actually comes to some kind of realisation that what's going on in the field of RPGs is not divorced from, say, what's going on in popular music, comes to some kind of realisation of the importance of solidarity, I can only say:

fucking shut uip with your self indulgent bullshit. Roll with the PR, support the Indies.

SUPPORT THE FUCKING INDIES, OR DIE, STUPID CUNTS.

 

[bryce777]

, but when the PR monkeys start hollering about revolutionizing a genre with magic and swords the skeptic monkey starts frothing at the mouth and hollering for blood.

jesus fuckin christ can't you guys cut these people some fuckin slack?

Point is - these may be coked up PR rhesus monkeys, but they aint coked up big Fuckin established corporate EA/MS/Bonoware motherfucking PR rhesus monkeys.

These are dudes from fuckin Poland. And like the Gothic devs, and like all the other Euro devs, they are the ONLY FUCKING HOPE WE HAVE, FUCKSTICKS.

So until this stupid board with its continual denial of the relevance of political identity to its subscribers' angst actually comes to some kind of realisation that what's going on in the field of RPGs is not divorced from, say, what's going on in popular music, comes to some kind of realisation of the importance of solidarity, I can only say:

fucking shut uip with your self indulgent bullshit. Roll with the PR, support the Indies.

SUPPORT THE FUCKING INDIES, OR DIE, STUPID CUNTS.

hehehehe

 

[Killzig]

SUPPORT THE FUCKING INDIES, OR DIE, STUPID CUNTS.

I'd rather fucking die than support more fantasy shite. Supporting the indies is the same kind of bullshit that gave the world Radiohead. BAH.

 

[Twinfalls]

No, you idiot. Radiohead suck cock, we all know that. Supporting Indies gave us Pavement, the Pixies, Fuckin Jane's Addiction, SY, all that was good before dipshit Nirvana came along and woke up the corporates. Look, I dunno, mebbe the witcher crew deserve nothing, maybe they're only in it for the dollar. Maybe on of them can tell us.

All I'm saying is that where they at least look to all intents as being genuine indies, we should, in the interests of solidarity cut them a bit more slack than the proven cunts.

Maybe?

 

[Spazmo]

Witcher is indie? Is that why it's being developed by Poland's biggest game company? Just because it's not (North) American doesn't make it indie. And in any case, I don't care who's making it, if the game ends up on a shelf in a local electronics store with a $50 USD price tag, it's not independent in the least. FURTHERMORE!, if Witcher is our best hope for a decent RPG, we should probably admit that the genre is fucked to hell and start LARPing.

 

[Killzig]

No, you idiot. Radiohead suck cock, we all know that. Supporting Indies gave us Pavement, the Pixies, Fuckin Jane's Addiction, SY, all that was good before dipshit Nirvana came along and woke up the corporates.

You forgot Fugazi. Fag.

Look, I dunno, mebbe the witcher crew deserve nothing, maybe they're only in it for the dollar. Maybe on of them can tell us.

Maybe? I don't think anyone's ultimate goal in life is to create yet another Fantasy RPG.

All I'm saying is that where they at least look to all intents as being genuine indies, we should, in the interests of solidarity cut them a bit more slack than the proven cunts.

Maybe?

No. Not when they want me to hack and cast my way through ye old game world.

 

[Zomg]

I hate indie counterculture, because it's just an adjunct to the mainstream. Jane's Addiction, The Pixies and whatever are all the same fucking band compared to the panopoly of music (Where's the indie music culture on orchestras, choral groups, shit with twenty copper lutes? Oh, sorry, it's just mainstream crap with minute political and musical permutations). I want a parallel culture that doesn't give a shit about the mainstream. Do people who love hard sci-fi you need a PhD in physics to read give a rat fuck about competing with Star Wars? No.

The self-satisfied reactions to this newsbit are pretty annoying, however.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Supporting the indies is the same kind of bullshit that gave the world Radiohead. BAH.

No, you idiot. Radiohead suck cock, we all know that.

Die bitches.

 

[Twinfalls]

You forgot Fugazi. Fag.

yeah well I also forgot Dinosaur Jr and Sebadoh, so Im a non-stoner-freak/nerd hey OK FINE

Look, I dunno, mebbe the witcher crew deserve nothing, maybe they're only in it for the dollar. Maybe on of them can tell us.

Maybe? I don't think anyone's ultimate goal in life is to create yet another Fantasy RPG.

You keep chasing that Fallout 3 rainbow.

No. Not when they want me to hack and cast my way through ye old game world.

It's an olde game world with no black/white villains/good guys. That ought to count for some slack, or I'm some kind of saintly-aura wearing preacher rapist. (wait a minute...I AM!!!!)

 

[Killzig]

yeah well I also forgot Dinosaur Jr and Sebadoh, so Im a non-stoner-freak/nerd hey OK FINE

But they suck too.

You keep chasing that Fallout 3 rainbow.

I'd settle for an RPG that had no magic system and was actually, you know, an RPG not this RPG Lite Jade Empire garbage.

It's an olde game world with no black/white villains/good guys. That ought to count for some slack, or I'm some kind of saintly-aura wearing preacher rapist. (wait a minute...I AM!!!!)

They get a cookie, but not my 50 bux.