Moron Alert! CDProject redefines RPGs

[Whipporowill]

Wasn't this in news?

Well, I posted that as news. If I have to guess, I was mean to people AGAIN! and that was WRONG!

Or Saint just didn't want to admit he got sloppy seconds on a new story...

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Saint doesn't really like it when someone uses the word "moron" in every other news post and can't keep the source article quoting to two or less paragraphs. While I would prefer a little(LOT) more subtlity in pointing out how a developer is being a dumbass on the front page, the big thing is over posting of the source content. It's piss poor ettiquete. There should be enough of a clip to drum up some interest and a little commentary on that clip, but one of the big purposes of it is to get people to check out the source article if they're interested.

If you quote the vast majority of the article, you're eliminating the need to go to the site that actually worked on and gathered the content. Imagine if you did an interview with someone and some site posted about it with nearly every single key point of that interview on their news page. Wouldn't that piss you off? It'd piss me off. That's why I'd like to only see one or two paragraphs in a news post, but no more than that. If you're going to piss off someone, it's usually better to do it by calling them out on something versus ripping all the important stuff out of their article.

That said, I normally let that slide. However, when there's two news items posted at the same time, I have to evaluate them based on which one is better for the front page as to which one stays and which one either gets deleted or moved elsewhere. That's what I did.

 

[Drakron]

But hey: if a player is bad in character development strategies, then his char will also be doomed to be a lame warrior, isn't that right?
It doesn't matter which way you approach.
...

In other words, if the player sucks at understanding on how to make a effective character we must dumb down the game to the point someone in his sleep can finish the game.

There are games I dont play because I am incredible bad at, I stay away from racing games for example but I dont go around asking to make then easy enough that I can beat then.

All games require some learning, the only issue is the game own internal mechanics and how the gameplay learning curve is.

Turning RPGs into a click fest will simply turn then intoa FPS sub-gender and Oblivion is a example of a RPG turning more and more into a FPS (I blame those Xbox faggots.

I dont even go about how broken is combat in Gothic ...

 

[Atrokkus]

Turning RPGs into a click fest will simply turn then intoa FPS sub-gender and Oblivion is a example of a RPG turning more and more into a FPS (I blame those Xbox faggots.

Click fest is in Morrowind.
If the action combat is implemented well, then there is no click-festing, there is a finesse combos, dodges, jumps and stuff like that. It's not dumb.
The thing is that this must not be pure action. In RPGs the action-based element must merge with stat-based, forming a kind of hybrid.
Gothic did that, but still the stat-element was kinda primitive. They'll improve that in G3, i'm sure.
They surely shoudl have added more moves. Other than that, it's great, and surely not dumb mouse-raping.

we must dumb down the game to the point someone in his sleep can finish the game.

As I said above, your character will suck in battle if your skills are not high enough. And of course, your reflexes also count, but stil the reflex-requirement is quite low in good examples of action-stat combat, like Gothic, so even a pretty inexperienced action-gamer will do fine.

But still, in most RPGs, I prefer classic TB or half-TB combat.

 

[Kraszu]

In other words, if the player sucks at understanding on how to make a effective character we must dumb down the game to the point someone in his sleep can finish the game.

No he was talking about rp aspect, in tb your skill is also important not only character skill. There is no reson to think that crpg whitout tb combat HAD to be dumb.

 

[Atrokkus]

That's what i'm talking about.
TB and Action/stat systems are very close in nature, they just differ in means.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

To put it all together, we believe that the time has come for the RPGs to achieve and gain new quality. We wish they would be more realistic, plot-oriented and visually mature… Open, to put it short, so as to bring loads of sheer joy. We wish for the RPGs to concentrate on intriguing storyline and to offer as much freedom in making decisions as possible. We wish for them to present us with non-linearity and real-life realism and to avoid the childishness and over-simplicity. We’ve had enough of ‘good’ versus ‘evil’ struggles, enough of over-polishing the rough realties.

So CDProjekt have re-defined the genre by not re-defining the genre?

Right.

 

[Kamaz]

If you quote the vast majority of the article, you're eliminating the need to go to the site that actually worked on and gathered the content.

Well, actually, I very rarely visit the links posted in news to read the whole article. If there is a tag "Listen, how this guy is dumb about RPGs!" then I feel no need to read another stupid article. THe exceptions occur whenever article is so stupid and dumb, I feel entertained while reading it. But its nice to see someones kicking in the nuts someone else. I allready commented on 'morons' or 'retarded questions' when talking about Oblivion.

Concerning CDProjekt, Witcher, then its clear, they have launched their hype machine. I guess it works if every other gamedev is doing that. I think, VD, you should too, redefine RPG genre as well as anyone else around. Redefinig genre - thats to cool!

Btw, an interesting thought occurred to me - maybe when they say they are going to redefine genre, they mean - dumb it down?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Saint doesn't really like it when someone uses the word "moron" in every other news post

Every other? Far from it. Anyway, ask me to stop calling stupid people stupid, and I will. It's your site, man.

... the big thing is over posting of the source content. It's piss poor ettiquete.

Disagree. A half a page out of 3 pages is about 15% of the article. Not a big deal.

If you quote the vast majority of the article, you're eliminating the need to go to the site that actually worked on and gathered the content.

If. See above.

Imagine if you did an interview with someone and some site posted about it with nearly every single key point of that interview on their news page. Wouldn't that piss you off?

No. Wouldn't give a damn.

It'd piss me off.

You are way too emotional.

That's why I'd like to only see one or two paragraphs in a news post, but no more than that.

Aye, aye, cap'n!

Anyway, I had to quote more than one paragraph because it wouldn't have worked in any other way. We are used by now to one mandatory paragraph of hype. Quoting one paragraph wouldn't have drawn attention to all that idiotic bullshit as your own news post about it clearly shows.

 

[DarkSign]

"Most of developers tend to copy the clichés and fear the changes. "

This statement itself is a cliché. Just saying you're not copying a clichés doesnt mean you really arent copying a cliché.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Every other? Far from it. Anyway, ask me to stop calling stupid people stupid, and I will. It's your site, man.

Subtle is always better. Calling people moron over and over again gets old and loses effect if you do it often. Once a month would be a good arbitrary limit assuming a standard of two news posts per day on average and a thirty day month.

You are way too emotional.

Thanks for the tip, Mr. Spock.

This statement itself is a cliché. Just saying you're not copying a clichés doesnt mean you really arent copying a cliché.

I think you just got goth served.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

<table align="center" bgcolor="green" border="1" cellpadding="10"><tr><td>

... the big thing is over posting of the source content. It's piss poor ettiquete.

Disagree. A half a page out of 3 pages is about 15% of the article. Not a big deal.

Technically it's 16.666% recurring which is well over 10% - a standard measurement when evaluating "over-posting".</td></tr><tr><td align="center"></td></tr></table>
Colourful.

 

[Sandelfron]

I've got a revolutionary new design that shifts paradigms outside the box:

The main character should be rounded, and so should appear
visually as a circle or sphere. Since there is going to be dialog
we should cut out a wedge for a mouth. For suspense we
should have the character fight ghosts. People usually
run from ghosts, so we'll say the character can only fight
them after collecting certain special items.

Since designer Peter Moulineux hates 'needless statistics' we'll
do away with them too, leaving perhaps an overall score. The
character will have a backpack to store his items, and is male,
so we'll call it "Pack Man".

 

[Shagnak]

Hey man, all your posts so far are, like, weirdly formatted and shit

 

[Sandelfron]

Ah; I format like that so you can speed-read it.

 

[Shagnak]

Ooooooo

Oh well, carry on then :wink:

 

[Fez]

Don't bother, it looks like you are writing bad free-form poetry.

 

[Naked_Lunch]

Is there any other kind?

 

[yipsl]

Drakron, relax, have a drink.

Agreed.

It could be a hybrid, like in Gothic or Oblivion - your character must learn combat techniques, but the player too has to influence the battle process by executing spectacular combos and sly maneuvers.
What's so bad in it?
It doesn't interfere with roleplaying at all.

Uh, well, yeah it does. Drakron is right about that part. If your character is supposed to be an amazing warrior, but in real life you're terrible at timing and coordinating your button-presses, it's entirely possible that your character will be a terrible warrior. Unless "terrible warrior" is the role you selected, the game is now hindering your ability to play the role.

(As an aside, it was rather fun to play a terrible warrior in Arcanum. I selected the character trait that gives you clumsiness, and as my character fought, he'd often drop his weapon, and sometimes scar himself. But that was on purpose -- I was trying to play that role, and the game enabled it.)

-Tony

The only action RPG series that I really played all the way through has been TES, and the style of combat in Arena and Daggerfall fit me fine. I've gotten ready for Oblivion by replaying Morrowind without "use best attacks" but even Oblivion's action RPG combat elements don't sound as consolish as The Witcher. Overall, I'm looking forward to the game, but I think there are two games here that are at odds during development.

One is "The Witcher", a CRPG with roles, plot and moral ambiguity set in a world reminiscent of the Middle Ages, with prejudice directed at nonhumans.

The other is a fighting game based on "medieval fencing arts and techniques", like that found in medieval German and Italian manuals like the "Flower of Combat".

The whole thing about CRPGs is that not everyone who plays is 14 years old with great reflexes. You'd think there'd be a niche for new RPGs, instead, the RPG keeps getting married to action games in a shotgun wedding and everything from RTS to FPS add RPG lite elements to provide depth.

What are we going to have in 30 years time? One genre? I hope not, and I hope there are RPGs not relying upon reflexes if I live that long.

 

[Lumpy]

Uh, well, yeah it does. Drakron is right about that part. If your character is supposed to be an amazing warrior, but in real life you're terrible at timing and coordinating your button-presses, it's entirely possible that your character will be a terrible warrior. Unless "terrible warrior" is the role you selected, the game is now hindering your ability to play the role.

But hey: if a player is bad in character development strategies, then his char will also be doomed to be a lame warrior, isn't that right?
It doesn't matter which way you approach.

If a player is bad in character development, he shouldn't be playing RPGs anyway.

 

[Jasede]

Sometimes, a lobotomy is a thing to look forward to

Oh my, so non-linearity, combat, et cetera redefine the term CRPG? Well, it's true, actually. I even believe that the time has come to redefine the over-used word 'moron'. Stupidity, arrogance, ignorance and annoyance are the very essence of a moron, not, like most unwitting people used to believe, intelligence, razor sharp wit and a good taste. Lo and behold the dawning of a new age of enlightment, brought to you by this grand definition that opens your mind and broadens your horizon! Never shall you forget these new four pillars of moroniness upon which mankind shall craft a society of peace and prosperity!
~
Actually, it's pretty sad; I was really looking forward to playing that game, but my interest has been raped, slaughtered, minced and cremated...

 

[7th Circle]

We believe the time has come to really think about what an RPG game should look like. Which elements should it consist of, and which of them are most vital. Lately, the technical progress has exceeded all the borders, we’re able to create photorealistic graphics, but still, the attitude towards RPGs does not change. Most of developers tend to copy the clichés and fear the changes.

That is why, we decided to change the attitude. We sort of … ‘factorized’ the genre, put it into pieces. Next, we scrutinized and thought over all the aspects and tried to pick out the most important RPG features. Finally, it was our task to put them together the best way we could think of, using the latest development techniques and available technology.

Redefining the genre or creating a new genre? It sounds to me like they want to create a game that is not a rpg but call it a rpg anyway. It also seems a bit bitchy to make comments about most other developers using cliches without actually giving an example or two.

We’re quite aware that not all RPG fans will accept our redefinition, but that’s mostly because they’ve gotten used to clichés and certain mechanisms.

Smacks of arrogance - "those who don't like what we will do are mostly those too stubborn to change".

And here are the results of our considerations. The crucial elements of the game should be: the storyline, combat system, freedom and non-linearity, character equipping and development. At the same time, all the aforementioned issues should be most intuitive and easy-to-use for the gamers.

What about character choice? IMO, one of the key features of a rpg is that you can choose to play different roles (and this goes beyond selecting different stats in the character creation screen). Does the fact that the combat system is considered so essential mean that the author is asserting that there is no place for non-combat based characters in rpgs?

...
Next there’s combat. Here we’ve introduced a unique system based on medieval fencing arts and techniques enhanced by magic. It comprises a total of over 200 animations interweaving into fluent combat sequences. What is more, it is a real-time-based system allowing the player to use numerous upgrades and power-ups and customizing the combat manner to one’s likes and needs.
...

It may look pretty with all those animations but how does it play? Are we talking about a rpg or a fencing simulator?

To put it all together, we believe that the time has come for the RPGs to achieve and gain new quality. We wish they would be more realistic, plot-oriented and visually mature…Open, to put it short, so as to bring loads of sheer joy. We wish for the RPGs to concentrate on intriguing storyline and to offer as much freedom in making decisions as possible. We wish for them to present us with non-linearity and real-life realism and to avoid the childishness and over-simplicity. We’ve had enough of ‘good’ versus ‘evil’ struggles, enough of over-polishing the rough realties.

Buzzword central.

What excatly do they mean by "realism"? Do they want to make the game really hard? Or do they want to make the game "gritty"? Or something entirely else (the two possibilites I mentioned were based on their "over-polishing the rough realities" comment)? What exactly are they referring to?

How do they intend reconciling their plot orientatedness with their "freedom in making decisions"? Certainly it can be done (and if done well can help create a great rpg) but I am concerned that self-confessed "newbies" throw around such concepts without realising how they are linked.

Is "visually mature" code for more technically sophisticated graphics? Or for more blood, flesh etc.?

I could be wrong but I also wonder if they are taking KOTOR as the basic rpg model they seek to redefine...

Of course, the very term of RPG Redefined might sound fancy or even bold. As for now, however, we’re sure our game is and will be RPG Redefined. Will our ideas influence the genre… depends on many factors. Yet, we’re certain we have a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity of directing the RPGs into an entirely new route… Even if by means of some our inventions only.

Clearly modesty is not their forte...

Some might ask, how will newbies, fledglings fulfill their promises? True… we might respond, but the freshness we represent allows us to look at the genre from an entirely unbiased perspective – and it helps, helps a lot. It’s like we’re completely new, so we don’t realize the impossibilities… and since we don’t, nothing is impossible ;-).

And this is the point. Who is the game being made for? It sounds to me like they are trying to create rpgs for players who don't usually play rpgs...

That being said, their whole vision seems to be filled with buzzwords rather than detail...

 

[Rosh]

Well, aside from the buzzwords, it is clear they are just using a trend that seems to persist no matter how stupid it sounds in practice. The new "cool" thing seems to be "redefining" a genre or other item in the industry, like how combat systems are given "innovative" names, but unfortunately these people don't seem to understand that it doesn't really seem to work when it's usually redefined into "mindless crap".

There's the combat system from UFO: Aftermath and whatever they want to call it, then the familiar "continuous real-time" of FOT. Hey when in doubt of anything meaningful to discuss about your game...

 

[Greatatlantic]

AHHHHHH!!! There are zombies everywhere in this thread!!!! Somebody stop them!

 

[bryce777]

The combat sounds like utter shit, until they gave details it sounded good. Usually they redefine it to mean as idiotic as possible.

What game are they making, anyhow? Are they the witcher people?