I take it all back

[Volourn]

"All the areas were hubs, my brother. Remember Beregost in Chapter 2? You could only go to Nashkel and Beregost (and the surrounding areas, of course. Similar to Bloodlines.) but you couldn't go to Baldur's Gate until Chapter 3, I think it was."

Not a hub to me. When I think hub; I think a main center where you can go out from. NWN OC is a great example of a hub like game; BG is not. Just because there were places youc ouldn't go in BG until certain things were done; does not mean the game itself was a hub. There was a freedom to travel without worrying about a certain base.

Basically, a hub is like a crossroads where all quests start off from. That didn't go that way in BG.

 

[Shevek]

I always saw BG2 as more of a hub based game than BG1. As Vol said, NWN was definately a hub based title.

To some extent, most games could be described by some abstract as hub based (since they have separate areas one could argue are separate from eachother and one goes out from to quest). What generally stops me from calling a game like BG or FO as being hub based is that one could travel the areas freely from eachother and quests often traverse and connect the different "hubs." This is different from when the game progresses and doesnt allow entry into previous hubs then opens others up. Some titles, like KoTOR, appear to be more of a mixture of the two philosophies than being "either or."

 

[Mendoza]

I have to agree with Volourn on this. A hub is somewhere you have to go through back and forth to reach other areas. So the city core in NWN is a hub, but Beregost (or anywhere else in BG) isn't. You don't even have to go through Beregost to complete BG, so there's no way you could consider it a hub.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Well, be that as it may, Planescape Torment and Icewind Dale 1 were like that.

 

[chaedwards]

Isn't the difference that when travelling between hubs you don't get to see the wilderness in between? BG2 had hubs, and you only saw the in between bits when fighting random monsters. In say Fallout or Arcanum, you could potentially walk over the whole world map - it would just be very dull...

Or perhaps it's that in hub-based games you can't get to different areas by exploring - you have to find out about them in some way beforehand, so that they're marked on your map.

That probably didn't help.

 

[Shevek]

Not really, I think hub based implies, in a sense, levelbased or stepbased. A forced progression from location to location. As in Deus Ex took the player from NY to China to france. BG2 started out in BG and the surrounding hinterland then you went to underdark then to the saughin city then someplace else (I forget) and so on each time to a different hub (even the xpac had a hub ). In FO, there were different cities but you couldnt really call em hubs since pretty much all the quest areas where accessible right from the get go. Similarly, BG1 did sorta have a hub where BG didnt open up till the end but all the stuff previous was open to you; so the lion's share of the game wasnt really hub based.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Well whatever. It's not really a bad thing. If anything it gives a more focused storyline and doesn't inundate the player with a billion god damn quests all at once. Morrowind really pissed me off like that.

 

[Shevek]

Ya, damn that tyranny of choices.

 

[chaedwards]

You're right - that is a better explanation. Thinking about it, I'm talking about the difference between a discrete and continuous game world - BG2 or TOEE being an example of the first, Fallout or Arcanum an example of the second.

 

[Ortchel]

But really...this is all Ortchel's fault. He's an idiot.

Calling Bloodlines' areas 'hubs' is pretty stupid considering the fact that you can't actually complete a hub one at a time, as they aren't chapters. You do have to return to them, you know. A bunch of missions from the first area can't be completed without venturing into the other 'hub' areas first, either. And you will get missions from the other areas that relate to the first 'hub', as well.

I suspect Ortchel isn't even 5 hours into the game and he's already come to this conclusion.

I didn't coin 'hub', thats what all the reviews have been calling your quest farms, making it accepted terminology. Oh yeah, and I said, multiple times, that I wasn't far, why be a dick?

If anything it gives a more focused storyline and doesn't inundate the player with a billion god damn quests all at once. Morrowind really pissed me off like that

Thats a sig quote if I ever heard one. Free me from the tyranny of choice, Troika!

 

[Sol Invictus]

Tyranny of choice can be really bad. Just look at Morrowind's 50 gazillion quests in your journal.

 

[Ortchel]

Thats why you exhibit choice (theres that word again) and complete your existing quests before taking new ones, it's about self control. Morrowind was unlike other games in that it didn't hold your hand to make sure you weren't overwhelmed.

But lets not turn this into a discussion on Morrowind, please.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Rubbish. 90% of the quests were utterly pointless. Filler content != 'choice'

 

[Ortchel]

Okay, we can discuss that another day. Let's get back to the topic at hand.

 

[Shevek]

I didnt mind Morrowind's number of quests. I minded its poor quests, poor dialogs and poor character development system. They can fill up my journal like madmen if I like the quests or design.

Tyranny of choices isnt what we should fear. Its the tyranny of poor design thats the culprit.

 

[Limorkil]

I'm going to comment on this because I also like Daggerfall and Morrowind.

The interface blows, for starters. Good luck switching from melee to ranged in a pinch if what you're looking for wasn't your last weapon used. Interactivity, such as light switches, is uneven, some switches are textures, some are models and operable and some are models but inoperable, as an example. The graphics actually aren't any good, with the exception of the character models which are excellent. My main beef with the graphical presentation is with the textures which look plain awful. Check out the "Die My Darling" poster during tutorial, which, as I stated in a thread earlier "looks like something out of Duke Nukem 3D", this kind of shoddy texture work is just bizarre and I would think unacceptable by now, especially on the goddamn Source engine.
Then of course we move on to actual gameplay. Melee combat is just a matter of hitting the left mouse button a lot while strafing or pressing forward or back till the d00ds fall over. Then glowing blue smoke highlights their dropped goods to help you spot them in case you're partially blind, or wearing sunglasses. The game world, as you've probably read, is seperated into hubs, just like Deus Ex 2, which coincidentally, Bloodlines feels a lot like. The creepiest similarity being the dance clubs which are almost carbon copies of one another, except DX2's was bigger.

Sounds like you were expecting a FPS game. All RPGs with 'real time' combat tend to do it badly compared to action games. Hell, the combat in Daggerfall and particularly in Morrowind are a complete joke. In Morrowind you just hit the button and repeat the same attack animation over and over. Yes, you could vary your swings by picking one of three attack types but (a) it was cumbersome to execute and (b) why would you bother when for most weapons one attack type was way better than the other two. I'm not bashing Morrowind because it never claimed to be an FPS. Neither did Bloodlines as far as I am aware.

Which brings us to my next point, every building is just a quest station, you enter and immediately can pinpoint who the important NPCs are, there is little exploration, as all unecessary areas are locked by magic padlocks that won't open regardless of your lockpick skill. For instance, it seems that all public restrooms have been shielded against Vampiric entrance by garlic doorknobs, also present on all but two apartments in your building. This kind of streamlining is par for the course in Bloodlines.

I prefer freedom but its hard to do in a non-fantasy setting because of all the tower blocks and stuff crammed into each space. Kotor had lots of artificial restrictions on where you could go and no-one seemed to complain. You don't have to have lots of freedom of movement to make a good RPG. I prefer freedom, but its acceptable to have restrictions if the game is more story based. (Don't think Oblivion will be any better. It will either have story and restrictions or freedom and no story.)

I can't comment on the quality or lack therof of the actual dialogue as I'm playing as a Nosferatu, I'm sure Exitium will tell you it's revolutionary or some shit though. The whole game world just feels barren and stiflingly restricted, even with all those NPCs walking around who don't do shit. Which I guess is fine for a lot people who don't like having to go far to get their quests, but you're not even offered the illusion of freedom. I guess my main problem with Bloodlines is it just doesn't feel right, there are so many little problems and oddities, like, why do the cops walk around with their guns out at all times? Why does cloth (coats, skirts, etc) flap around like it's being pulled by fishing wire in ten different directions at all times?

Elder Scrolls NPCs never do shit. All I would say here is that the dialogue is meant to be one of the best bits, so maybe that's why it does not play right for you. Sounds like you prefer stealth characters like me, but your character choice is not one who gets to talk to many people, unfortunately. And Morrowind hardly 'felt right' if you think about it. Still, I know how minor issues can annoy. I hated how the main character in Kotor rolls his/her eyes when listening to NPCs.

Admitedly I haven't gotten far in the game, so some of these points I've made are subject to change. I should note that I felt similarly about KotOR, a walled in quest farm with mediocre combat, so if you liked that, you should like this.

You are probably right. I felt the same way about Kotor, although I still liked it. I daresay Bloodlines will annoy me in some way too. Unfortunately, the Kotor style sells well so expect to see many more RPGs adopt the same restricted, story based approach. I hear Oblivion is going in the same direction, although I suspect Bethesda will produce something that is in between Kotor and Morrowind, thus pleasing hardly anyone.

 

[Ortchel]

Sounds like you were expecting a FPS game. All RPGs with 'real time' combat tend to do it badly compared to action games. Hell, the combat in Daggerfall and particularly in Morrowind are a complete joke. In Morrowind you just hit the button and repeat the same attack animation over and over. Yes, you could vary your swings by picking one of three attack types but (a) it was cumbersome to execute and (b) why would you bother when for most weapons one attack type was way better than the other two. I'm not bashing Morrowind because it never claimed to be an FPS. Neither did Bloodlines as far as I am aware.

I wasn't expecting anything, actually, (though it does bill itself as an fps/rpg) I never read any previews and hardly paid attention to the threads, I like to be as unbiased as possible when playing a new game.

I prefer freedom but its hard to do in a non-fantasy setting because of all the tower blocks and stuff crammed into each space. Kotor had lots of artificial restrictions on where you could go and no-one seemed to complain. You don't have to have lots of freedom of movement to make a good RPG. I prefer freedom, but its acceptable to have restrictions if the game is more story based. (Don't think Oblivion will be any better. It will either have story and restrictions or freedom and no story.)

To be honest, the only game I've ever played that I thought had a good story, was the Thief series. So, restricting my gameplay to pump me full of another hackneyed plot, isn't a good design choice, if you ask me.

Elder Scrolls NPCs never do shit. All I would say here is that the dialogue is meant to be one of the best bits, so maybe that's why it does not play right for you. Sounds like you prefer stealth characters like me, but your character choice is not one who gets to talk to many people, unfortunately. And Morrowind hardly 'felt right' if you think about it. Still, I know how minor issues can annoy. I hated how the main character in Kotor rolls his/her eyes when listening to NPCs.

Morrowind felt more than right to me. I love Morrowind, I have some sort of creepy bond with it. When I hate all other games, I always come back to it, like a prodigal son. However, I can't disagree, that, for the most part, Morrowind's NPCs were pretty lifeless (with the exception of Bloodmoon, which did a good job of reinventing the Morrowind wheel, in a lot of respects) but this just brings us back to my last point. Also, the issue of dialogue, in particular, is a matter of personal preference with me. In real life, I hate, hate, hate talking to people, so games that don't make me, and let me hide from them and/or knock them out and push them into a bush when they bug me, are already in my good books.

I hear Oblivion is going in the same direction, although I suspect Bethesda will produce something that is in between Kotor and Morrowind, thus pleasing hardly anyone.

Yes, my sig once read "Resident Bethsoft Fanboy" which has since been removed upon reading the latest previews. I'm not terribly pleased with the direction of gaming at the moment. It feels like there ain't no place for me no more.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Hubs just means you can go to and from a map. This is as opposed to a set chain of maps that goes in order.

 

[Trash]

For a bright and funny note, anyone checked out some of the trash cans in the santa monica hub/area/place? They look very much like the ones I used to see in Tarant.
Sometimes I really dig easter eggs. :D

 

[Sol Invictus]

Yeah, that was pretty cool.

Speaking of trash cans, I liked the Half Life 2 tutorial on how to pick items up. The Civilian Authority guard tells you, "pick up that garbage. now throw it in here." and then he chuckles.

That was pretty funny, even though he was really mean for doing that to me.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

These missions that lacroix give you are crap, the rest of the game is sublime but the "action areas" of the game are shit, ugly and boring. And the worst part is you can't avoid 'em.

 

[Whipporowill]

There's a rumour of an severed head being able to be used in a hoop - gets a cheerin g audio track.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

yes, across from the last round theres a building with a murder scene, you can do it there.

 

[Spazmo]

I've been playing this game for a few hours now and while I very much like it over all, I think there are some things that could be improved. While all the quests are well done, some of them seem very linear. There's a couple I can name that only seem to have combat solutions. There's some quest choices to be made in other places (like the beach house exlosives dealer dude or the thing with the owners of Asylum), but there's a few quests that only seem to be doable one way, largely forcing the player to be real good at knocking things around. Still, if the main plot lets you make meaningful choices that affect the ending (and I do hope there's one of those delightful slideshows at the end), I'll be satisfied.

All in all, I've been thinking more and more that Bloodlines is really the game that KOTOR should have been. They're similar in many ways, but while KOTOR gimps itself with that horrid real time phased based whatever you want to call it garbage, Bloodlines just takes the change in perspective from isometric to its logical conclusion and goes for more kinetic and fun action game combat. If KOTOR's combat had been more like Bloodlines' (actually they could have just imported the lightsaber combat from Jedi Academy) and it hadn't received all the sloppy fellatio for "BEST RPG EVAR", I'd like the game a lot more.

 

[Volourn]

"If KOTOR's combat had been more like Bloodlines'"

From what I've heard, combat is BL's greatest weaknesses and is seemingly worse than KOTOR in that aspect.

Also, as for endings, I've heard that BL has 4...

 

[Vault Dweller]

Actually, the combat is fun. Although I specialize in ranged, I don't mind cracking a few skulls every now and then.

 

[Volourn]

KOTOR's combat was 'fun" too so that's faint praise you give.