GameSpy Dissapointed By Troika

[Dhruin]

An interesting post from Linoleum on QT3, who I believe used to be a Troika dev:

Unfortunately, while I am certainly capable of conducting a rather detailed postmortem of Troika (as opposed to idle speculation), that's not really something I can or would do on a public forum. Suffice to say, among other things Troika really hurt themselves by not getting into the console space earlier and also in not pursuing future projects early enough. To Troika's credit, this was due to focus on deep PC RPGs and focus on finishing Vampire. To their detriment, well...Troika no longer exists.

No one will ever fund an external developer on a single-player PC-only RPG project to the tune of Vampire again (although mind you, it was hardly the most expensive PC game ever, this is more a reflection of the current state of the industry than of the amout of money spent). In fact, I don't think a publisher would fund a PC-only RPG with the budget of ToEE, and ToEE wasn't that expensive of a game. And then we have the publisher/engine/brand politics. Which I'm definitely not going into.

 

[Killzig]

Not surprising, thanks for sharing Dhruin.

 

[DemonKing]

Suffice to say, among other things Troika really hurt themselves by not getting into the console space earlier...

Yep - that strategy really saved Herve's bacon!

No one will ever fund an external developer on a single-player PC-only RPG project to the tune of Vampire again.

That however, is quite depressing news.

Now we can blame Troika for destroying an entire genre!

 

[Killzig]

Suffice to say, among other things Troika really hurt themselves by not getting into the console space earlier...

Yep - that strategy really saved Herve's bacon!

No one will ever fund an external developer on a single-player PC-only RPG project to the tune of Vampire again.

That's because Interplay was putting out shit. They kept pumping money into shit projects and that's what they got in return. Run Like Hell, FOBOS, Hunter, .. let's not even get started on the whole Matrix/Shiney fiasco or LithTech. If they'd saved some cash and released a semi decent Earthworm Jim game for the x-box how much cash would they have made themselves? instead they fucked about with shit and butchered any of the licenses they had that were worth a damn. BethSoft put out Morrowind and made themselves a tidy sum. Kotor made bioware a fair sum I'm sure. Jade Empire is going to make them a mint. Troika probably could have carved out a nice little market for themselves had they made an attempt at the x-box market.

 

[Fez]

Turn based combat games probably do better now on consoles than on PCs too.

 

[Greatatlantic]

Suffice to say, among other things Troika really hurt themselves by not getting into the console space earlier...

Yep - that strategy really saved Herve's bacon!

The problem with Herve's strategy was they released an abysmal console game. It was something no fan of Fallout would ever play on a console, and someting no console player ought to have bothered with. If you look at the cross market sales of Morrowind, KotOR, and Halo, it would appear crossplatform hits are the way to go. Popularity in one equals sales in the other, however deserving or not.

No one will ever fund an external developer on a single-player PC-only RPG project to the tune of Vampire again.

That however, is quite depressing news.

Now we can blame Troika for destroying an entire genre!

Now, I know you know better. The PC RPG has been dying out for some time, unless you are counting MMOs, which are made in relative abundance. I don't.

 

[Killzig]

i wouldn't say pc rpgs are dying, definitely in a lull right now but it'll come back up as companies like bethsoft, bioware and obsidian show profitability... once dragon age hits, kotor 2 shows its profitability.... dungeon siege 2 will probably do brisk business... its all in cycles....

 

[Greatatlantic]

i wouldn't say pc rpgs are dying, definitely in a lull right now but it'll come back up as companies like bethsoft, bioware and obsidian show profitability... once dragon age hits, kotor 2 shows its profitability.... dungeon siege 2 will probably do brisk business... its all in cycles....

Morrowind and both Knights of the Old Republic were released as cross-platform releases, which actually confirms the anonymous posters claim that they needed to expand into consoles. Dragon Age might do better, but it is a self financed project. If it does really well, other companies will get on it. If it only does mediocre, bye bye, PC single player RPG market. I exagerrate only slightly.

 

[Killzig]

Dragon Age, is there any possibility the game won't do well? Bioware's got the hype machine going for them. The game would have to be extraordinarily awful for it to fail. I just think that with the recent success of the KOTOR series and now what seems to be a mortal lock Jade Empire Bioware has crossed over to one of those impervious developers. Whatever they put out right now is going to sell well and hopefully that'll push some publishers to fund more rpgs. Even if they are for the console I'll be glad because there will be some trickle down to PCs.

 

[dojoteef]

Irvine is only about 25% more expensive than the average US city.

That still makes a significant difference. That means everyone working at Troika is having to spend 25% more on the cost of living, so they have to be paid more. When you factor that in, as well as the price of rent for the office space, monthly bills such as electricity, etc, you'll probably be seeing close to 20-25% higher development cost. That makes a big difference.

 

[dojoteef]

Killzig, what would be even better, would be if Bioware got to the point where it can publish games. Then they could help fund RPG development houses.

Same goes for Bethesda. They can already publish, but if they were willing to fund RPG developers as well, I think that would be great.

This is probably wishful thinking though.

 

[Killzig]

25% is a hell of a lot. though really, your cost of living is going to be pretty high in most cities. I don't think any developers would be interested in moving out to flyover country. Central florida or the carolinas might provide a combination of decent weather and an acceptable cost of living... I've always liked Charleston... Savannah was great. I like the south. Fried chicken and waffles for breakfast fucking rocks.

 

[Killzig]

Killzig, what would be even better, would be if Bioware got to the point where it can publish games. Then they could help fund RPG development houses.

Well shit, I don't know how comfortable I am with Bioware creating themselves a nice little monopoly over the RPG world. Though, don't you think they've already taken steps towards that when they started subcontracting KOTOR2/etc to Obsidian?

 

[Dhruin]

Most people here complain constantly about Bio (and Bethesda) - now you want them to publish too?

Bio know exactly what sort of market they want to develop for...they aren't going to start publishing the sort of niche titles I would guess you are thinking of.

 

[Kuato]

Another point I haven´t seen in this discussion so far is the contract structure question. Were ToEE and Vampire work for hire for a flat fee? Then the sales numbers are only significant in negotiations about future projects but have no influence on their earnings. Or did Troika sign an advance against royalties contract?

advance against royalties contract its a damn good way to take advantage of a small developer, I have heard of these contracts before isnt it something like the developer doesn't make any money off the profits until they pay back the cost of the entire game in royalties with interest to the publisher and if the royalty percentage is tweaked just right you can edge the developer out of making any profits for projected sales, meaning even if the game makes a really good profit the developer doesn't make a dime. Seems unfair but if the publishers are fronting the money they make the calls right unless the company can self fund or fund the project through outside investors

advance against royalties = dead company
must be why small developers are dropping like flies

An owned original IP must be a developers only hope for increasing the company's value and profits.

 

[Greatatlantic]

I don't think Dragon Age will fail, I just think Bioware will take a look at its sales compared to its platform and cross platform releases, and that will be the end of that.

On another note, I doubt I'm going to like Dragon Age, based upon passed Bioware game experience. I'll probably buy it and enjoy it more than say a FPS, but in the past their games have been dungeon crawlers with typically epic stories to provide an excuse to do so. Not my style. But hey, life gets pretty dim with out something to look forward to.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

That still makes a significant difference. That means everyone working at Troika is having to spend 25% more on the cost of living, so they have to be paid more. When you factor that in, as well as the price of rent for the office space, monthly bills such as electricity, etc, you'll probably be seeing close to 20-25% higher development cost. That makes a big difference.

In terms of office space, it's a hell of a lot higher than in South Eastern areas. Paying $15,000 a month for an office in Irvine versus paying $1,500 a month in West Virginia, for example, adds a huge cost. Not to mention a game studio probably uses a lot of kilowatts, and electricity in California is pretty damned high compared to states where they allow power plants to be built.

 

[DemonKing]

i wouldn't say pc rpgs are dying, definitely in a lull right now but it'll come back up as companies like bethsoft, bioware and obsidian show profitability... once dragon age hits, kotor 2 shows its profitability.... dungeon siege 2 will probably do brisk business... its all in cycles....

I agree - it will only take big PC single-player CRPG hit to kick-start the industry again - much like Baldur's Gate did in the late 90s, when there was also a major lull.

 

[crufty]

Fried chicken and waffles for breakfast fucking rocks.

No reason to go to the south for that--Roscoe's is the best. And it's located in Los Angeles, no less.

 

[Killzig]

yeah but you probably pay twice as much for it.

 

[Jed]

Yeah, but no one in their right mind would leave LA for West Virginia. There's a reason the cost of living is so low there. They might as well just work out of their garage.

 

[Kuato]

or move to Canada

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Yeah, but no one in their right mind would leave LA for West Virginia. There's a reason the cost of living is so low there. They might as well just work out of their garage.

Okay, yeah. I'll give you that, but I was just using West Virginia as a generic South Eastern state. However, I drove through there once. It's the ugliest fucking state I've ever been through. I think they have a statute that says all industry in the state must be built right next to an interstate or something.

 

[Jed]

Hey Saint, what part of Kentucky do you live in anyway? (I tried to PM you, but I got a message that said "The Administrator Has Prevented You From Messaging Him" or some such...)

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Hey Saint, what part of Kentucky do you live in anyway? (I tried to PM you, but I got a message that said "The Administrator Has Prevented You From Messaging Him" or some such...)

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