Gameplay Over Graphics...Honestly?

[ExMonk]

Your a bethesda missionary, spewing your filth while thumping your content-free yet super-pretty glossy bible. We've seen the kool-aid and responded with a resounding 'eh'. You can tell us that Morrowind is closer to what we want than Daggerfall and that Oblivion is closer than Morrowind still until you're blue in the face - we already know it's not true. The hive mind has already decided that Oblivion may be a very fine game, but it isn't what we're looking for in an rpg.

Wow. Nice come back. Really clever.

When have I ever tried to tell you or anyone here that Morrowind or Oblivion are closer to what you want in an rpg than Daggerfall? Where did you ever get this? What have I done? Tried to argue that Morrowind and Oblivion should not be consigned to the pit of rpg hell. That they do have redeeming qualities. And for that I'm a Bethesda missionary. However can I fight such ironclad logic? I can't. You're just TOO MUCH for me to handle.

 

[obediah]

You're just TOO MUCH for me to handle.

Aww, you're just like your mother.

 

[Zomg]

I think there is a silent core of people who liked Morrowind here, although not deeply enough to mount a defense of it when it's slighted. It's also very hard to defend because so many of the pieces of it were poor and easily ridiculed even though the whole achieved something interesting. But no one likes to be an apologist, and only one game (Fallout 1) will reliably get a distributed defense here, and to a lesser extent PS:T. You can shit on Fallout 2 and maybe one or two bored people will go to bat for it. So a sort of "attack culture" has formed.

A lot of people also hold their problems with the direction of the RPG genre against Bethesda. I hold that against EA, Ubisoft, Sony, MS and VUG myself.

 

[Vault Dweller]

For that, I'm called crazy and my religion is ridiculed. Real mature guys. Real mature.

Out of curiosity, how many people here have "ridiculed" your religion? 3? 4? 5? A small percentage. I know that I've never done that and not because I have nothing to say on the subject. So, why bringing it up?

I am defending games that are routinely raked over the coals as kind of a badge of honor

Why? Some kinda public defendant role? Anyone remembers Skorpio?

But apparently you're not supposed to do that. I didn't get the memo.

You are not? I didn't get the memo either then.

Was it not obvious that I was basing my argument not merely on what the devs said, but on what actually made it in the game? Of course it was. What made it into the game is a reasonable indication of what the goals were that the devs had for the game, no? You yourself said so. What made it into Morrowind? NPCs, quests, dungeons, and a world that were not randomly generated, but ones that were individually hand crafted.

A game with quests, dungeons, and NPCs? Wow! It's clear to me now that the developers wanted to create a game of the highest quality, so once again, I must admit my defeat. You are just way too crafty for me, ExMonk.

No, seriously, that's your argument? Wanna rephrase it a bit?

Now I'll say this slowly so you can grasp it.

Your kindness and willingness to spread education knows no limits. That is - without a doubt - exactly what Jesus would do! (sorry, couldn't resist)

We are NOT arguing about how well Beth succeeded in implementing these features. I don't think they succeeded all that well, actually. We are arguring about whether your repeated premise is true: that Beth's sole focus and goal for developing Morrowind was pretty graphics; and they didn't care, didn't have the money, or didn't have the time to put in anything else of substance.

So, where are your arguments then? Oh, the game has quests. I see...

Live in your fantasy world if you want...

Can we be neighbours? Your fantasy world would be next to mine and we can visit each other.

Again, my point is this: the developers of Morrowind were not ONLY concerned about making a pretty rpg; the wanted to create one that was faithful to the Elder Scrolls lore, one that featured exploration of a vast world, and one that did all this without resorting to randomly generated npcs, quests, dungeons and world.

Making a non-random exploration game based on a certain setting has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH WHAT WE WERE DISCUSSING - whether or not Bethesda wanted to make a better RPG.

 

[Tintin]

Nice to-the-death argument, guys. That line-by-line replying technique always makes the user look superior to the other....

Anyways.

Don't see why graphics are bad. There's this old Cryo game called "KGB" (aka Conspiracy), a very intelligent game, had a really good drawing style (the game is set in the past Soviet Union), and all the streets, offices, etc, are drawn really well and pull you into the game, even though they are hand drawn and seem cartoony. I think in this way the "graphics" contribute a lot to the game. That's also the case in a lot of other games. Unneeded effects like sunlight and super-glare and all that crap are extras, and they should be left like that. However, anyone who says that he would not enjoy a game slightly more if it had good graphics is a liar (and I mean with the same gameplay obviously).

 

[Vault Dweller]

Nice to-the-death argument, guys. That line-by-line replying technique always makes the user look superior to the other....

Better than "I will reply in 2 generic paragraphs ignoring most points and arguments, and will reinforce how angry I'm that nobody listens to me!" style

 

[Tintin]

Nice to-the-death argument, guys. That line-by-line replying technique always makes the user look superior to the other....

Better than "I will reply in 2 generic paragraphs ignoring most points and arguments, and will reinforce how angry I'm that nobody listens to me!" style

Yes, that is what I was implying.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Nice to-the-death argument, guys. That line-by-line replying technique always makes the user look superior to the other....

Not as superior as photoshoping an image to put down several members of a forum, though.

 

[obediah]

However, anyone who says that he would not enjoy a game slightly more if it had good graphics is a liar (and I mean with the same gameplay obviously).

I like good graphics. They make a game better in the same way giant, barely covered breasts make a co-worker better. They're nice to look at, but they don't factor into the hiring decision or any serious evaluation.

RPGs have always had crappy graphics, when space invaders had two colors, nethack only had one. I guess FFVII was the big "OMFG Graphix!!" breakout that unfortuntately sold insanely well.

Bethesda is wasting time on stupid weapon animations that would be better spent on dialogue trees just like VD is wasting time on stupid tavern interiors that would be better spent on dialogue trees. However, they both feel it's important to either boost sales or to meet their "vision". We've discussed both of these thoroughly, so anyone that feels the need to bring either up without thoroughly combing the archives is trolling and deserves whatever they get.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I don't do taverns or anything else of that sort. I write stuff (story, quests, dialogues, etc) and tinker with game mechanics. Other people model, animate, code.

 

[Tintin]

I don't do taverns or anything else of that sort. I write stuff (story, quests, dialogues, etc) and tinker with game mechanics. Other people model, animate, code.

Hmm, I can't tell if this is a sarcastic reference to Bethesda's response or if you're serious......

I like good graphics. They make a game better in the same way giant, barely covered breasts make a co-worker better. They're nice to look at, but they don't factor into the hiring decision or any serious evaluation.

Yes, but wouldn't working be a little bit more enjoyable?

 

[obediah]

I don't do taverns or anything else of that sort. I write stuff (story, quests, dialogues, etc) and tinker with game mechanics. Other people model, animate, code.

Hmm, I can't tell if this is a sarcastic reference to Bethesda's response or if you're serious......

My first thought was of the standard MMORPG response to the "Why do you have people working on a non-free expansion when there are so many bugs and missing promised features?" question. "Well that's an entirely separate team, those people couldn't work on the other stuff." As if they couldn't retrain them or fire and hire more appropriate skills.

I like good graphics. They make a game better in the same way giant, barely covered breasts make a co-worker better. They're nice to look at, but they don't factor into the hiring decision or any serious evaluation.

Yes, but wouldn't working be a little bit more enjoyable?

Only if she was good at her job. Unfortunately the analogy falls apart there because some women get great jubblies for free. AAA graphics don't come for free, and I don't care about them beyond the role they play in increasing profit and getting sequels made.

 

[Tintin]

Only if she was good at her job.

Argh you killed my comparison. Hmm....if she was bustling around the place dropping files and knocking computers over I guess that would outweigh your enjoyment.....

But I mean, what I am saying is, graphics are just for fun. When you compare whether one game is better than the next, you won't count graphics. But come on, you would enjoy a game a bit better at least if you were walking around lush environments with realistic light and all that stuff then blocky trees, right?

My first thought was of the standard MMORPG response to the "Why do you have people working on a non-free expansion when there are so many bugs and missing promised features?" question. "Well that's an entirely separate team, those people couldn't work on the other stuff." As if they couldn't retrain them or fire and hire more appropriate skills.

Yes, that was Bethesda's response to the mounted-combat-trees-patrickstewart blabber, and I find it odd that Vault Dweller would respond in the same way he used to criticize. And thus, I thought it was a sarcastic reference, which he favours highly.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

For that, I'm called crazy and my religion is ridiculed. Real mature guys. Real mature.

The key to a long and happy codex relationship is if someone Insults/Ridicules you. "Thou hast free reign to ridicule back, thou shalt NOT dwell on fellow codicers insults...you faggot."

 

[Vault Dweller]

I don't do taverns or anything else of that sort. I write stuff (story, quests, dialogues, etc) and tinker with game mechanics. Other people model, animate, code.

Hmm, I can't tell if this is a sarcastic reference to Bethesda's response or if you're serious......

My first thought was of the standard MMORPG response to the "Why do you have people working on a non-free expansion when there are so many bugs and missing promised features?" question. "Well that's an entirely separate team, those people couldn't work on the other stuff." As if they couldn't retrain them or fire and hire more appropriate skills..

Not the same. We have 4 core people who specialize, for the lack of a better word, in 4 different key areas. Your point would have been valid if I had 4 graphic guys and one writer, otherwise... Besides, it's not like the dialogues are a weak area that needs more attention.

Yes, that was Bethesda's response to the mounted-combat-trees-patrickstewart blabber, and I find it odd that Vault Dweller would respond in the same way he used to criticize. And thus, I thought it was a sarcastic reference, which he favours highly.

Once again, there is a difference. I hate to compare AoD with any game, but I do show both graphics and content (dialogue screens, many quests examples, features discussions - synergies, alchemy, shields mechanics, traits, tactics, etc). I haven't removed any features to accomodate better graphics either, so what are we talking about here?

 

[obediah]

Yes, that was Bethesda's response to the mounted-combat-trees-patrickstewart blabber, and I find it odd that Vault Dweller would respond in the same way he used to criticize. And thus, I thought it was a sarcastic reference, which he favours highly.

Well if the AoD team is a rag-tag group of people working together for the experience of making a game and to maybe getting some money, it's probably different than a big development house. Everyone is going to want to do their best and prove their abilties, so if you tell your graphics person to make simple fast stuff they might leave. I don't know if this is the case with VD or not. I know he feels that the better graphics are key to getting more people interested in the game.

Now if you go down to one developer the big team dynamics come back into play. You have 24 hours in a day and time spent on graphics is time not spent on gameplay. If I ever win the lottery and make a game, every thing will be top-down hexes, with heads on chits like an avalon hill game.