Vapourware A New Top 101 Poll

[Shaki]

If you really wanna get that technical about it....

.... Disco Elysium has combat in the game.

Disco Elysium has two scripted encounters with fighting (three if you include punching Kruno Cuno), but zero combat mechanics.

The three fundamental aspects that define RPGs are character elements, combat elements, and exploration elements. Disco Elysium has no combat and virtually no exploration, therefore is not an RPG.

Still, I would hesitate to categorize Disco Elysium as any genre other than RPG. CRPG, specifically.

It's a visual novel. A CYOA for zoomers. That's literally it. It has no mechanics, the only "gameplay" is just fluff, visual/audio stimulation existing purely because zoomer brain is incapable of focusing on text without it. The game is an equivalent of a tiktok video form, where the core of the message is purely textual, but it has some random video added to it, purely to keep the attention of people with no attention span. You could adapt DE completely as a pure CYOA text game with no visuals, without losing any of its mechanics and context, something that would be impossible to do for any actual RPG game.

 

[Sigourn]

You can never get an "accurate" list because, subjectivity aside, not everyone has played all of the nominated games.

The way I did my Codex polls was to let everyone nominate games, how many they wanted (trusting they wouldn't be tards that nominated 300 games at once), and then poll the nominees.
I don't think the final ranking matters much, what matters is to have a proper consensus on what games are great, what games are good, and what games are ok.

To get another Top 101 RPGs poll but with the games slightly shifted around isn't particularly interesting.

 

[raeven]

The game is an equivalent of a tiktok video form, where the core of the message is purely textual, but it has some random video added to it, purely to keep the attention of people with no attention span.

There is no way you've played this game. It is the opposite of a tiktok / low attention span game.

 

[Shaki]

The game is an equivalent of a tiktok video form, where the core of the message is purely textual, but it has some random video added to it, purely to keep the attention of people with no attention span.

There is no way you've played this game. It is the opposite of a tiktok / low attention span game.

Yes, because it's not really a game. It's a book, for people who don't read books. That's why Disco fans actually praise the "great writing", despite it being extremely meh, compared to actual books, since it's the first time they voluntarily read something mildly complex, and it blew their minds.

It only works because there are sounds and visuals and buttons to click and fiddle with, which while completely pointless from the mechanical/systems standpoint, keep the zoomer attention focused, so he can actually be fed the text without getting bored. That's the whole trick behind DE - zoomers discover writing as a form of entertainment/art. It might be a shitty one, but for them it's godlike, because it's the first one they've ever managed to consume.

It's pretty much the same trick as weeb visual novels which zoomers also love, just with much higher budget so it's not just static pictures with some looped background music and sometime pixelated minigames. And ofc writing quality while low, is still miles ahead of weeb VN's. That's why unlike them, Disco managed to hit mainstream zoomer audience.

 

[BosanskiSeljak]

There are far more gen z weeb coomers into VNs than there are into shit like Disco Elysium

There are no RPGs or RPG-like games that are mainstream with zoomers, it's very niche

 

[raeven]

The game is an equivalent of a tiktok video form, where the core of the message is purely textual, but it has some random video added to it, purely to keep the attention of people with no attention span.

There is no way you've played this game. It is the opposite of a tiktok / low attention span game.

Yes, because it's not really a game. It's a book, for people who don't read books. That's why Disco fans actually praise the "great writing", despite it being extremely meh, compared to actual books, since it's the first time they voluntarily read something mildly complex, and it blew their minds.

It only works because there are sounds and visuals and buttons to click and fiddle with, which while completely pointless from the mechanical/systems standpoint, keep the zoomer attention focused, so he can actually be fed the text without getting bored. That's the whole trick behind DE - zoomers discover writing as a form of entertainment/art. It might be a shitty one, but for them it's godlike, because it's the first one they've ever managed to consume.

It's pretty much the same trick as weeb visual novels which zoomers also love, just with much higher budget so it's not just static pictures with some looped background music and sometime pixelated minigames. And ofc writing quality while low, is still miles ahead of weeb VN's. That's why unlike them, Disco managed to hit mainstream zoomer audience.

You haven't played the game yourself, correct?

 

[Shaki]

There are far more gen z weeb coomers into VNs than there are into shit like Disco Elysium

There are no RPGs or RPG-like games that are mainstream with zoomers, it's very niche

VNs are still pretty niche. Only few which were accompanied by massively popular animes, or the long lasting media franchises, managed to hit similar popularity to Disco. On its own it's pretty much the most successful visual novel of all time.

You haven't played the game yourself, correct?

I played for a couple of hours, enough to see it has no real gameplay, and judge the quality of writing.

 

[Harthwain]

That is a major error in logic right from the start. Whether it has "all the hallmarks of the actual tabletop RPGs" is not relevant because it isn't one. Whether it has hallmarks of computer RPG is the logically correct question.

Sounds to me like a major error in logic is on your part here. If something is an RPG, then it is an RPG. Trying to pretend like something is not an RPG because it is based on tabletop RPGs is baffling. Especially considering that there are plenty of cRPGs that are based off tabletop RPGs (and often they aren't translated into cRPG 1:1).

Many people believe that a hallmark of a CRPG is combat. Beacause over 99,99% CRPGs have in fact combat as main or important aspect - this argument has weight.

So combat is what makes an cRPG? I think this argument is false. It is not about combat per se. It is about how the game handles its interactions. This includes combat, but doesn't mean it is what solely defines an RPG.

In addition you commit some more silliness like this one: "you play an RPG? You roll the dice." You roll dice in many other activities or kinds of games as well.

If you don't consider rolling the dice to be an inherent part of an RPG (even if it is handled by the hidden system), then the whole conversation about "what is an RPG?" is moot since we can't even agree on the basics.

BTW, I don't know why people think CRPG = pnpRPG. At least they act as if they did. That equation is clearly incorrect. Those two use vastly different mediums and rules. One was conceived using the other as a base but that doesn't make them the same.

Both are RPGs, even if mediums are different.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

Disco Elysium has no combat and virtually no exploration

Combat was part of the tabletop version of Disco Elysium, it was just handled the same way as everything else (you select a skill, you roll, you get a result). What changed between the tabletop and the computer version was that more physical skills were added. Also, the dedicated combat layer was considered at some point (as evidenced by a mock-up screenshot), but apparently it has been cut.

And it has exploration, so fake news here:

exploration: the action of traveling in or through an unfamiliar area in order to learn about it.

 

[Martyr]

just because you like a game, it doesn't make said game a RPG.
hell, I've played through Disco Elysium 6 times and I don't consider it a RPG - much less after "speedrunning" it last time, which really showed the core gameplay. I had to level up a total of two times to get through the game. you can't even get through simple RPGs like Star Wars KotOR with only leveling up two times.
as others have said, it is a RNG CYOA. character creation and possibility of leveling are RPG-elements, but tons of games have RPG-elements nowadays.

now, is Dark Souls a RPG? nope. done SL1 playthroughs of them all. again, stats at char creation and leveling are RPG-elements, but at its core it is an action game.

I've always seen the RPG codex as a bastion against the omnipresent decline of gaming. the hardliners, who "tell it like it is". that includes sticking to clearly defined genre boundaries, which in the case of computer RPGs means Wizardry- and Pool of Radiance-clones in its purest form and bastardized modernized equivalents like Baldur's Gate 1/2, Dragon Age, Pathfinder, and so on - with a heavy focus on the OG stuff, nevermind the age (see newer prime examples of RPGs like Grimoire and Temple of Elemental Evil).

if you really think that Disco should belong on the RPG Codex list of greatest RPGs, you're an enabler of decline and should stick to other gaming forums, instead of dragging this one down to mainstream level.
I'd even advise to vote for Planescape Torment in a new poll despite it being a meh-RPG (but a fantastic storytelling-game) just so Disco doesn't get high on the list.

 

[raeven]

just because you like a game, it doesn't make said game a RPG.

Just because you don't like a game, doesn't make it not an RPG.

 

[Martyr]

just because you like a game, it doesn't make said game a RPG.

Just because you don't like a game, doesn't make it not an RPG.

which game are you referring to?
Disco Elysium? like I've said, I've completed it 6 times, not even counting my "speedrun".
Dark Souls? played each one for hundreds of hours, done multiple SL1 playthroughs.
doesn't sound like I don't like them, does it? they're not RPGs though. why? read my opinion above.

 

[flyingjohn]

Nobody cares about what is a RPG. Treat the list like a simple selection of "interesting" games and check out the codex threads or the CRPG book to get further information. Simple as that.
You can find cherrypicked flaws in everything. Crpg book has Borderlands, the Codex 2014 list has Torment as the ultimate rpg and Dark souls above Wizardry 7,chan recs wiki is full of decline options, etc.
I like the considered option of everybody picking 10 hidden gems alongside their top 10.

 

[Serus]

Sounds to me like a major error in logic is on your part here. If something is an RPG, then it is an RPG. Trying to pretend like something is not an RPG because it is based on tabletop RPGs is baffling. Especially considering that there are plenty of cRPGs that are based off tabletop RPGs (and often they aren't translated into cRPG 1:1).
(...)
If you don't consider rolling the dice to be an inherent part of an RPG (even if it is handled by the hidden system), then the whole conversation about "what is an RPG?" is moot since we can't even agree on the basics.

All i can say, is that you have trouble with logic. Start byt looking under "intersection of mathematical sets", you want the simplest possible, with only two sets. Look at the pictures. The claim "if is RPG then it is RPG" could only be true if there is only one set called "RPG". However even you agree that there are elements not common to both kinds of "RPG" hence there must be two sets: "crpg" and "pnprpg" that have a common part and major elements specific for each separately (different medium, people vs computer "playing" and more). Obviously you could answer (and i believe you are trying to in a convoluted way but i can be wrong): "I agree that they are different but i think the difference are unimportant". That's nice but this is just an opinion, the differences are an undeniable fact, they exist, they make both of those two "things" different, objectively.

Basic reading comprehension is also an issue. Supposedly I claimed:
"Trying to pretend like something is not an RPG because it is based on tabletop RPGs..."
On my side the claim went like this:
"One was conceived using the other as a base but that doesn't make them the same".
Do you believe that the two phrases are even remotely equivalent in their meaning?

But i will comment on one thing:
No I don't consider rolling any object to be "inherent" to any kind of game except hockey and curling. There are at least few pnpRPG games that don't have randomisation at all, let alone dice, imagine that. "Amber Diceless Roleplaying Game" for once, use to be somewhat famous too, is not the only one. Is random element absolutely necessary for something to be called a RPG, computer or PnP? I am not sure - again. You however seem to be having all the answers for every similar question, maybe you should write the Holy Grail of Codex - the DEFINITION? I would be glad to read it.

 

[Sweeper]

now, is Dark Souls a RPG? nope.

I'm gonna open up a can of worms here.
If Dark Souls isn't an RPG then neither is Gothic.

 

[Lord_Potato]

now, is Dark Souls a RPG? nope.

I'm gonna open up a can of worms here.
If Dark Souls isn't an RPG then neither is Gothic.

Aaaand shit just got real

 

[HeatEXTEND]

Dark Souls is nothing like Gothic beyond third person "open world", can closed.

 

[Sweeper]

Dark Souls is nothing like Gothic beyond third person "open world", can closed.

The combat is fundamentally the same in both games.

 

[Goldschmidt]

It is clear that what constitutes a rpg is not set in stone judging all these fluid definitions.
These discussions have been done to death ever since the inception of the codex (yes I was already lurking early 2000).
The definitions of the loudest voices almost always get the most credit.

This is what current gen wiki editors say:

A tabletop role-playing game (typically abbreviated as TTRPG), also known as a pen-and-paper role-playing game, is a classification for a role-playing game (RPG) in which the participants describe their characters' actions through speech, and sometimes movements. Participants determine the actions of their characters based on their characterization,[1] and the actions succeed or fail according to a set formal system of rules and guidelines, usually containing Dice-Rolling. Within the rules, players have the freedom to improvise; their choices shape the direction and outcome of the game.[2]

A role-playing video game, commonly referred to as a role-playing game (RPG) or computer role-playing game (CRPG), is a video game genre where the player controls the actions of a character (or several party members) immersed in some well-defined world, usually involving some form of character development by way of recording statistics. Many role-playing video games have origins in tabletop role-playing games[1] and use much of the same terminology, settings, and game mechanics. Other major similarities with pen-and-paper games include developed story-telling and narrative elements, player character development, complexity, as well as replay value and immersion. The electronic medium removes the necessity for a gamemaster and increases combat resolution speed. RPGs have evolved from simple text-based console-window games into visually rich 3D experiences.

 

[Harthwain]

just because you like a game, it doesn't make said game a RPG.

It is not the question of liking it or not.

character creation and possibility of leveling are RPG-elements, but tons of games have RPG-elements nowadays.

You're going into a weird territory here, because if you break everything into "RPG-elements + something else" (for example Icewind Dale is tactics with RPG-elements) then suddenly nothing is an RPG. In my opinion there is a difference between something having RPG elements as minor support points (which, I agree, is very common) and RPG elements being the core of the game.

if you really think that Disco should belong on the RPG Codex list of greatest RPGs, you're an enabler of decline and should stick to other gaming forums, instead of dragging this one down to mainstream level.

I think you simply don't understand what constitutes an RPG and as such shouldn't be here. Stick to general gaming.

I'd even advise to vote for Planescape Torment in a new poll despite it being a meh-RPG (but a fantastic storytelling-game) just so Disco doesn't get high on the list.

If it gets high on the list, then it means that's the will of the people. I'd rather not falsify the results merely because I dislike one game or another. But that's just me.

I agree that they are different but i think the difference are unimportant". That's nice but this is just an opinion, the differences are an undeniable fact, they exist, they make both of those two "things" different, objectively.

Bullshit. One is PnP RPG, the other cRPG. Both are RPGs. Trying to preach about logic and lack of basic reading comprehension when you yourself don't understand what they have in common is your own fallacy.

Do you believe that the two phrases are even remotely equivalent in their meaning?

You're saying that PnP RPG and cRPG are not equivalent. I am saying they are both RPGs, even though they are for different mediums.

You however seem to be having all the answers for every similar question, maybe you should write the Holy Grail of Codex - the DEFINITION? I would be glad to read it.

Hey, you're free to have your own opinion of what is an RPG and I am free to have mine.

 

[raeven]

Dark Souls is nothing like Gothic beyond third person "open world", can closed.

The combat is fundamentally the same in both games.

New origin of the soulslike genre unlocked

 

[Nifft Batuff]

It seems that everyone agrees to what a TTRPG is, while none agrees on the definition of computer RPGs.

 

[POOPERSCOOPER]

I suggest something like the great 3/5 compromise but for join date. If you are a new fag who joined within the last couple years you have less of weighted vote compared to older members. We must maintain our republic.

 

[BosanskiSeljak]

I suggest something like the great 3/5 compromise but for join date. If you are a new fag who joined within the last couple years you have less of weighted vote compared to older members. We must maintain our republic.

Yes because someone like BruceGPT is pure incline compared to everyone else who joined after him

 

[OSK]

Obligatory:

 

[raeven]

Obligatory:


View attachment 46260

Instead of just taking cheap shots, why not actually contribute a meaningful definition of your own? It's always easier to attack others than to actually have a position.