Avatars and animation in shareware RPGs

Vault Dweller · Dec 14, 2004

As you all know, shareware RPGs are limited by download size. Our recent survey indicates that most people are unwilling to try anything above 25-50 MBs (which probably explains why there is no sequel/expansion for 75 MB Prelude to Darkness). Spiderweb games are about 15 MBs which is very smart, but the characters resemble cardboard cutouts and the animation is non-existent. Can't say that that's ever bothered me though.

Now, as some of you know, I and a few other internet ninjas are working on a game. The animation looks decent, but animating different characters with even 4-5 basic armor types and 8 different weapon groups, special attacks, and death animations is driving the size up. I guess the alternative is to have a spiderweb-like avatars that show no armor and have one basic weapon regardless of what you actually have.

So, the question is - talking about shareware RPGs in general, what are you expectations in regard to avatars and animations? What do you think is a must? What is the minimum? What's good to have?

What about male/female player characters, how important is that option to you? If such option is given, do you have to have a visual confirmation (i.e. boobies :lol:

) that your character is a female?

crufty · Dec 14, 2004

In nethack, the avatar is an @, so anything above that is welcome. As far as graphics though--how big was ultima VII? 7MB?

I would say as much graphics as you can do, do. As far as need--at least a static avatar/portrait for each race/sex/class combo. Then, if you have the space, a generic attack frame at the minimum. If you can get a paperdoll effect out there, all the better. Anything beyond that is icing on the cake.

Human Shield · Dec 14, 2004

I think the graphic mode for Gearhead is well-done, it has an isometric 2/3 angle on it. But more should be done.

The graphics don't have to be great but how they are presented is important.

The biggest graphic problems with shareware RPGs (Wasteland too) I've seen are:

1. Poor interface, screen is confusing and lacks feedback.
2. No walking animation combined with large grid tiles and poor movement control, annoying to get around.
3. Walls too blocky or too thin, everything looks wrong and out of proportion.
4. Camera is locked to main character, smooth mouse control is much better.
5. Camera too zoomed in, use JA2 as a reference of good distance.

Prelude to Darkness spent time on graphics but it seemed to just make the camera and movement more annoying to control, interface was also lacking IMO.

Different armor and weapon graphics aren't huge importance, but 3 armor graphics (light, med, heavy) and one weapon graphic for each weapon type (change color for magic maybe).

Good sound quality can really enhance poor graphics more then you realize.

I'd judge X-COM level graphics as great for a shareware title.

Dhruin · Dec 14, 2004

I think the methodology for your survey is a little flawed, VD.

You specified older comps and dial-up only...I suspect if you tried to take the totality of the gaming market prepared to buy indie cRPGs online, my guess would be the largest group would have broadband and couldn't really care less how big the files are.

Leaving the cost of buying good art aside ('cause thats a bit harder

), I think people like Jeff Vogel are keeping a handful of dial-up users happy and driving away a *much* bigger audience who don't like the graphics. Of course, if you can't generate/buy the graphics in the first place, it's a moot point.

Do as much as you can and bugger the size, is my opinion.

Shagnak · Dec 14, 2004

Im happy with anythin Vogel-esque. The important thing for me in sharware-level stuff is the rpg systems, character development (development of stats and abiilties and shit I mean...), and some IDEAS in the thing.

Please no more orcs and elves and dwarves??

My permanently alpha rpg thingy looks even worse than the first Ultima games - the graphics front end is rather perfunctory, I mainly play with behind-the-scenes engine stuff to see whats possible. This is mainly cos I have little ability in that area (graphics), so I guess Im less interested in dealing with that stuff. Not that I mind nice graphics in other peoples stuff - I go thru periods of fps-junky-ism.

Shagnak · Dec 14, 2004

Vault Dweller said:
What about male/female player characters, how important is that option to you? If such option is given, do you have to have a visual confirmation (i.e. boobies ) that your character is a female?

For me it depends on what level of graphics you are implementing...very low level then no, it can just be a "male" or "female" on the character sheet.
However, if you are giving the player a choice of sex, and the graphics are detailed enough to display the difference between the two, then yes, show "boobies" or whatever. Not a big deal, but I think it would be rather jarring for my amazonian warrior queen to have muscular pectorals

...actually, come to think of it, woman like that DO exist :lol:

And to the 1st question - the choice is only important if you are implementing a more "free-wheeling" type of rpg, i.e. a rogue-like or whatever that is low on linear plot stuff. Not being able to be a chick may be seen as slightly discriminatory against she-geeks? Sex is one of those fundamental things, after all.

If you have a linear plot-driven game, then it would not worry me. Live with what you're given in that case.

Ap_Jolly · Dec 14, 2004

Never cared much for the "avatar" pics. They never seem to be customizable enough for me to make my own...
Oh. One expectation - NO ANIME. PLEASE. I'm sick of this adolescent crap being marketed as the evolution of animation. I can fucking handle a black silouette with shifty eyes, as long as it doesn't have spikey hair.
On the other hand, I expect a game to captivate me - either by game play, or by graphics. So if your game is mediocre, you better have some kick-ass graphics to keep me around. And if it looks like crap, I better be enjoying the gameplay!

voodoo1man · Dec 14, 2004

I still think Fallout has the best character graphics of any isometric game. Everything they did was right - even the low resolution of the sprites was perfect. If you look at games with higher-res sprites like Crusader or Arcanum, the characters actually look worse because of the jaggy alpha masking. It's halfway between photo-realism and suggestive, blocky representation, and that's why it just doesn't work. Fallout's sprites are blocky enough that masking doesn't make them look distractingly bad, so you're free to let your mind work over whatever it is the artists wanted to evoke. On that note, the color palette was my favorite aspect of Fallout's sprites - consistent with the game world, yet varied enough to be interesting, and most importantly pleasant to look at by itself. The variety was also very important - do include sexes and armor types, as well as gun types (I just loved seeing my character stroll around with the big smg graphic when I got the custom sawed-off .223 pistol in Fallout).

almondblight · Dec 14, 2004

Well, keep in mind that more advanced does not equal better. For instance, compare Avernum to Exile â€“ in many ways I think the Exile engine is comporable to Avernum, and in some ways I believe it surpasses it (movement is easier, mountains aren't walls). If you have a good style and a graphics engine that fits that style, that's all that matters. Well, to me at least. Which I guess means you are pretty much screwed.

Otaku_Hanzo · Dec 14, 2004

Well, I'm not gonna get too into this as everyone who knows me around here pretty much knows my stance on graphics. I felt the graphics in Avernum were adequate, but there's been one thing I had always wanted to see in that series: a paperdoll system. Sure it's nothing more than cosmetics, but it adds a certain something to any game that boosts it just that much more.

Heck, I'm rather partial to the graphics in Darklands. Where the beauty in that game lies is within the hand drawn interface screens. Beautiful stuff and a beautiful game.

Vault Dweller · Dec 14, 2004

Dhruin said:
I think the methodology for your survey is a little flawed, VD. You specified older comps and dial-up only...I suspect if you tried to take the totality of the gaming market prepared to buy indie cRPGs online, my guess would be the largest group would have broadband and couldn't really care less how big the files are.

No, I was trying to establish the limit. It's clear that the high-speed people have no restrictions and could d/l a 100 MB file in minutes. The dial-up people are limited, and I agree with many opinions that 25 MB is usually as far as people would go.

I don't have any info to back up my claim, but I think that the dial-up people with older computers are the primary shareware market. They can't run any latest games like Bloodlines or Dawn of War, they can't download 99% of demos because it would take days now, etc

I think people like Jeff Vogel are keeping a handful of dial-up users happy and driving away a *much* bigger audience who don't like the graphics.

Well, I don't think that Jeff can't do better graphics. I think he can, but chose not to. Like I said, Prelude offers decent 3D graphics, but I don't see any sequel or expansion, while Jeff manages to produce one game a year. It would be stupid of me to disregard his experience and go "Lol, look at teh noob, he cant maek teh kewl grafixs!!111".

Of course, if you can't generate/buy the graphics in the first place, it's a moot point

I can and I have, and that's the problem. Both the size and the reqs went up.

EEVIAC · Dec 14, 2004

Why not just have two versions - a low graphics version that has simplified avatars and less or no animations, and a deluxe version with everything (also available as a seperate download for dial-up users.)

Elwro · Dec 14, 2004

Yeah, I was about to post that, too

. Maybe you could make an "Inventory Pack", without which you'd have only 3 weapon models etc, and after installing it you'd have more. (I'm talking here of course only about graphical representations). The same with "Monster Animation Pack", "Kewl SFX Pack" etc. I think you should leave a basic, playable game file weighing at most 25 MBs, for dial-up people to check if they like the game at all.

Whipporowill · Dec 14, 2004

Yeah, why punish the people higher on the technological scale if you don't have to. Show us how good an indie rpg could be without silly art limitations - I'd say most people these days aren't on dial-up anyway, or am I just delusional?

Vault Dweller · Dec 14, 2004

EEVIAC said:
Why not just have two versions - a low graphics version that has simplified avatars and less or no animations, and a deluxe version with everything (also available as a seperate download for dial-up users.)

I was thinking about releasing a simple <20 MB version first, and then making a deluxe 70 MB "graphics whore" version.

Vault Dweller · Dec 14, 2004

Whipporowill said:
Yeah, why punish the people higher on the technological scale if you don't have to. Show us how good an indie rpg could be without silly art limitations - I'd say most people these days aren't on dial-up anyway, or am I just delusional?

Well, like I said, when I think of the indie way I look at Spiderweb and Zero-Sum. There is a very good reason why Jeff is still in business, and why Prelude, an awesome, fantastic game, didn't sell gazillion copies.

EEVIAC · Dec 14, 2004

Vault Dweller said:
I was thinking about releasing a simple <20 MB version first, and then making a deluxe 70 MB "graphics whore" version.

The people with the bandwidth to download the deluxe version might not come back to try it if the releases are staggered.

Hajo · Dec 14, 2004

Modem users are definitley a dying species. All my friends switched to highspeed connections already and my colleagues laugh at me. I'm a late adopter, ok, but this time I almost feel like a dinosaur in modern times.

How far is your project evolved? If it takes one more year to complete, your probably don't need to care about modem users anymore. I assume the majority of people will have switched to better connections then.

Do you have an idea how many copies you need to sell? Maybe the crowd of people having fast internet access is big enough already?

Vault Dweller · Dec 14, 2004

EEVIAC said:
The people with the bandwidth to download the deluxe version might not come back to try it if the releases are staggered.

I realize that too, but making 2 versions simultaneosly sounds like too much work and will delay the game.

I will probably try to cut down all unnecessary animations (no weapons shown when walking, no special attacks - although I really liked those, etc) and cut some frames too.

Vault Dweller · Dec 14, 2004

Hajo said:
How far is your project evolved?

Far enough. ETA Fall 2005.

Do you have an idea how many copies you need to sell?

Gazillion sounds like a reasonable number :lol:

I dunno, really.

Maybe the crowd of people having fast internet access is big enough already?

The crowd is definitely big enough, but that's mass-market. RPGs are a niche product these days, and shareware RPGs are like a niche inside a niche.

Otaku_Hanzo · Dec 14, 2004

Just to add two more of my cents to this, I regularly download 200-300 meg demos. Of course, being on DSL helps, but I also did this when I had dial-up. I have the patience of Job when it comes to getting gaming goodness. :cool:

[Edit: As a sidenote, you could always break the 75 meg download into 10 individual 7.5 meg downloads to appease the dial-up crowd. Just make sure you keep the 75 megger for those who have beefier download capability.]

Astromarine · Dec 14, 2004

My opinion: Choose a graphic standard that you are SURE you can do well. I'd rather have cLean, crisp, artful 2d non-animated sprites than shitty pseudo-3d. As long as it doesn't look half-assed I don't care.

Hajo · Dec 14, 2004

Vault Dweller said:
Hajo said:

Do you have an idea how many copies you need to sell?

Click to expand...

Gazillion sounds like a reasonable number I dunno, really.

Click to expand...

You see me confused :shock:
You said, you want to make a business of it?

Let's say: the team and you work 4000 hours on the project. You want a rate of $50 per hour. This makes $200.000 ... assuming you can get $10 from each copy, you need to sell 20.000 copies (calculation simplified very, very much ... you'll have consider taxes and a lot more stuff in your real calculation).

Given this, you need to answer the question if there is a market to sell at least 20.000 copies. If the answer is 'no' better try something else, or modify the project unless you can sell enough copies. (Add jiggletech :wink: )

Diablo (the first one) sold more than 2.5 million copies until 2001 according to Blizzard.

OTOH selling 20.000 copies can be really hard if you don't have a publisher (and if you have, you probably don't get $10 per copy).

But, don't ask me, all my stuff is freeware, and the first commercial project of a friend of mine turned into neverending lawsuit ...

Vault Dweller · Dec 14, 2004

Hajo said:
You see me confused :shock:
You said, you want to make a business of it?

What I meant is that it's unrealistic to expect to make a lot of money on your first game. Would be nice, but unrealistic.

Jeff once told me that his games sell several thousand copies. Considering that he has a good customer base and a name, my expectations are half of that. My decision to continue or not would be based on the exact amount, feedback, nature of stupid mistakes, idiotic design decisions, etc.

let's say the team and you work 4000 hours on the project.

I don't look at it that way. At this point it's a hobby that I enjoy. If I can make some money on top of that- Yay! If I can turn that into a business - double Yay!

But, don't ask me, all my stuff is freeware, and the first commercial project of a friend of mine turned into neverending lawsuit ...

How so? Can you post some details or PM me. No names and fine details are necessary, I'm just curious what went wrong in general

Volourn · Dec 14, 2004

" (i.e. boobies)"

No b00bies. No game.

B00bies is what made me forgive Bl for all its sins. :twisted:

Seriosuly, graphics aren't that big of deal in the long run. Sure, they're cool; but if the story and character s and role-playing is there; I'd be game. That's why i don't play SW games after Avernum series demo. So overrated.

Anyways, good luck.

Avatars and animation in shareware RPGs

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