Avatars and animation in shareware RPGs

[Hajo]

My friend made most of it public (as far as he is allowed to) but it's all german:

http://www.3dtt.de/

I'll try to give a short summary: my friend had an idea how to take transport simulation games to new heights. He gathered a team of hobbyists. The project grew and looked very promising. At some point he decided to need professional support. He found a small game development company, and there was a deal: he first helps them to finish their current project (as a lead programmer/designer), then they will help him finish his project (they had the 3D graphics artists he needed). He and a few of his team got contracts in this company, and they started the cooperation

It worked all well, until very late in the project. When his project was almost ready for a release, my friend was fired and the company handed the project to a publisher who happily published the 95% finished product.

I must admit, I presumeably have a very biased view because most of the information that I got was from the mouth of my firend. So I don't want to go into details too much.

The lawsuit includes questions of the ownership of the product and of course the question who may publish (and therefore make money from) it. My friend claims it's his creation and he owns it, while the company claims it's their creation and they own it. He sued the company for 50.000 euros damage and to stop publishing the product or any derivatives.

The lawsuit started in 2001 and is still going on.

 

[Jed]

VD, I'll throw my lot in with those saying that you should do the best graphics you can do, ie, the most appropriate and consistent, style-wise. And for folks on dial-up...well, it's good to consider them, but with rates of $20-$30 dollars a month--is there anyone who's not migrating to DSL at this point? (At least in the Western world...)

PS- Care to give us an overview of setting and/or features? And no Bethesda-style "Can't say more right now" shit either, KTHXBYE!@LOL

 

[Human Shield]

I've downloaded 60-90 meg stuff with a 28.8 modem, if the people want it bad enough they can leave it running all night.

And now bittorrent can make downloading even easier. 50-60 meg is a good range.

 

[Vault Dweller]

PS- Care to give us an overview of setting and/or features? And no Bethesda-style "Can't say more right now" shit either, KTHXBYE!@LOL

Well, there was this 6-page thread long time ago
http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=3707

Few more threads: Char system, Factions, Vignettes, Weapons, Skills synergies, Repair.

In a few words: low-magic fantasy, turn-based, skill-based, no levels, 6 professions (not classes, more like gameplay styles): knight, merc, thief, assassin, loremaster, con artist. Non-linear (duh!), 4-6 ways of solving quests, etc.

 

[ElastiZombie]

You see me confused :shock:
You said, you want to make a business of it?

There's an interesting article on Grumpy Gamer about the economics of making a 2D adventure game in today's market: http://grumpygamer.com/4904226

Don't think it applies to your situation, VD, but it is a bit of an eye opener as to why there isn't more development in niche markets like adventure games and rpgs.

 

[NeutralMilkHotel]

So I take it, it won't be a present day rpg?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Guess not

 

[Sol Invictus]

I think you are really limiting yourself and your client base by pandering to the 'lowest common denominator' in terms of computer hardware. This isn't 1998, so the majority of online gamers are on broadband. Pretty much everybody outside of the United States is.

If you limit your game to 15mb you had better learn to use some good sound and image compression or your game will suffer from having cardboard cutouts as avatars and a series of beeping noises for sound and music.

Ultima VI had decent graphics and gameplay, and it weighs under 20mb. Under 40mb, if you add the sound and music. I don't understand the need to resort to use cardboard cutouts, and I don't see the point in releasing a game that's only 1mb just to cater to that large 2400 Baud userbase.

If you are making a 2d game be sure to cap the framerate at 30fps or you'll have the problem of the game scrolling too fast and erratically, and the game will give you a headache. Play Subspace or Infantry to see how they did it. Theirs has 3d graphics, decent sound, smooth animations and it doesn't weigh much either. Avernum is a very bad template to use to make your game from a technical standpoint.

Don't skimp on sound. The reason I don't play Kult anymore is because the sound quality is horrid. The sounds don't correspond to the weapons so none of your attacks feel like they had any impact.

Really, I dont understand the point in making the game compatible with a 486 on a 28.8.

Concerning the color, please use a proper palette, like ones you see in graphically appealing games (e.g. Fallout, Diablo, TOEE, Prince of Qin) rather than a bunch of fucking primaries (Avernum, Geneforge). I have never understood why so many shareware games have to look like they were just pulled out of radioactive vat. If you use 3d graphics, be sure to put some lighting/shading on it. MXO is absolutely hideous because it doesn't have any of that.

Seriously, you are punishing everybody who isn't the lowest common denominator.

I will probably try to cut down all unnecessary animations (no weapons shown when walking, no special attacks - although I really liked those, etc) and cut some frames too.

Bleah. What the hell are you using for compression? BMP? TGA? This is ridiculous. The online MMORPG "Dark Ages" originally weighed in around 25mb and it had good sound, good graphics (8 classes, variety of armor and weapons for each) and tons of areas. It's been patched up with tons of new areas so it's about 59mb now. Here's a neat screenshot of what a 59mb game can look like:

So why should I look like this below?

This looks like crap.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I think you are really limiting yourself and your client base by pandering to the 'lowest common denominator' in terms of computer hardware. This isn't 1998, so the majority of online gamers are on broadband.

Online gamers? Sure. If we are talking about people who are into single player games and hate online gaming, I doubt it.

The only fact that I have is that Spiderweb is doing reasonably well whereas many other attempts have failed. In regard to high-speed, it still costs anywhere from $20 to 40 whereas good ol' dial-up is often free or costs $5-10. I'd assume that there are many people who aren't jumping to upgrade their PCs every time a new processor is released, being happy with old games like Fallout, Daggerfall, Darklands, etc.

 

[Sol Invictus]

I meant gamers who are online, not people who play online games. I dont think I need to mention that Dark Ages runs perfectly fine on an old PII and it isn't a big game to download, either. Back when I was on 56k I didn't mind spending a couple of hours to download it, because it looked good and the quality of the 2D graphics was worth the time it took to get it.

Most people aren't even going to bother downloading a 5mb game if it looks like Avernum, and most people who do, won't even bother playing it because of how craptastic it looks.

 

[Sarvis]

Frankly I don't care much about the graphics at all.

Whatever type of graphics you use, make sure it looks "nice" though. As in not muddled, or fuzzy or just crappy looking. I'd rather have simple square blocks that look good than a well textured field that looked like crap... heh.


Honestly though what's more important is the user interface. Prelude to darkness did not have a very good UI. Actually, the graphics were also kind of ugly... heh.

The combat system did seem to have potential though...



Yeah, it's been a while since I tried it or I could probably explain more from it... heh.

 

[Kamaz]

And, VaultDweller, please consider Prelude to Darkness was released more than two years ago. Considering you are planning your release about year later, its allready three years past. The people from dial-ups and slow-old machines slowly move to something more decent and less ancient, three years is great time for computer games. Just bear in mind that when drawing paralels with Prelude to Darkness.

And, yeah, another thing about PtD. I havent played that game, know little of it, but I have seen some screens and it was 3D. Then for you to know - 3D require some acceleration and there are people that do not have adequate GPU's and it might not have been question of download size rather than lack of 3D rendering options. I know nothing of your game's engine (though I'd be really interested to learn smth about it), but I presume its pure 2D blitting engine. Which will give you needed without-3d-acc people Prelude lost.

And, in the end, final advice - make graphic-whore edition first and see how it sells. Then, if needed, release LightEdition. You wont lose people with slow connection and machines if you do so, but you may lose graphic-whores and get some bad reviews. And you will be able to compare data about number of both versions sold. Those will be really important data, since this will show the development direction in future.

PS:
I presume engine you have licensed is Mac and Linux friendly, since it is another thing that should be taken in consideration if making shareware games. I know you know that Spiderwebs customers mostly are Mac users. Linux users too shouldnt be forgot, but with less priority since if they can put Linux on they can handle some "back-door" Windows.

 

[NeutralMilkHotel]

I don't know about you, but those 2D pics exitium posted look much, much better than PTD:

 

[Vault Dweller]

Just bear in mind that when drawing paralels with Prelude to Darkness.

Good point.

I know nothing of your game's engine (though I'd be really interested to learn smth about it), but I presume its pure 2D blitting engine.

Yep, it's 2D

And, in the end, final advice - make graphic-whore edition first and see how it sells.

Well, that seems to me the best option.

 

[crufty]

Also, you can always consider sending dial-up users the full game on cd if they want to buy it. I wouldn't be too concerned with the dial-up market, or the older computer market. You can get a 2ghz machine for $300-$400. It should be able to handle 2d graphics plenty (3d is different). As the cliche goes, build it and they will come.


As to the financial angle, it's no different then car restoration. You can spend hours and hours fiddling with a car, restoring it to mint, and end up with only a $5000 car. Factoring in time, did you spend more than $5000? Definitely. But sometimes, the fun is not in the final product, but the journey getting there.

 

[Human Shield]

Your setting has a low number of monsters in it, I'd sugguest that you don't use protraits and go with Fallout-like sprites instead.

Protraits for shareware RPGs are usually too limited and rarely make importing your own easy (or go with optional protraits for the game that could take many different picture types).

Protraits make repeated humans opponents more generic looking.

 

[Stark]

just to chip in, anything resembling the level of graphics in Arcanum is adequate for me.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Arcanum's crappy unpolished 3d character looks really ruined the otherwise well rendered backgrounds. I would suggest going with the Dark Ages approach by using 2d-pixel drawn characters rather than shoddy 3d renders. It has a lot more style and you can easily create a very large a variety of characters by making the body, head and weapon separate. In essence it works similar to one of those 'paperdoll' flash games. It saves a lot of space because you won't have to render wholly separate files for 'medium armor blond hair with sword' and 'medium armor blond hair with axe'. It'd require more programming, but I think it's worth the trouble.

 

[PennyAnte]

I would like to see at least one generic male and one female character model option (w/ visual representation) to represent my character in the “playing space.” (That probably goes without saying by now. ) I’d say include as many or as few “face portraits” as you want in places like stat selection screens.

I’m good with just one each of an armored and light/unarmored look. For example, the generic armored look might show my character in plate even if I’m wearing chainmail, while unarmored might show for leather or robes.

Paper dolls are a plus.

EDIT: I don't care much about special attack animations. I don't know what to say about spell animations, but if you're low-magic, maybe it won't be much of a problem.

I’d at least like to see one weapon graphic and attack animation for each of the following: 1 handed bladed (sword, knife) and 1 handed blunt weapons (club, mace), 2 handed with a long pole (polearm, spear, staff, etc), 2 handed bladed (big honkin sword, probably axe), and a bow for all missile weapons. I’d say you could leave out shields in all cases.

EDIT: That is, for character graphics purposes.

Also, I second what Human Shield said about general design guidelines. In fact I think lots of good design ideas have been suggested. Big version first, "lite" version later also seems like the way to hit the market IMO.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I’m good with just one each of an armored and light/unarmored look.

We have 4 at this point: plain clothes, and 3 armor types.

Paper dolls are a plus.

We are going with a Fallout-like inventory model. An in-game avatar instead a paper doll

EDIT: I don't care much about special attack animations. I don't know what to say about spell animations, but if you're low-magic, maybe it won't be much of a problem.

Very low magic. You can't play as a wizard and you don't have any magic-related abilities whatsoever, so no spells. You won't be fighting wizards either.

I’d at least like to see one weapon graphic and attack animation for each of the following: 1 handed bladed (sword, knife) and 1 handed blunt weapons (club, mace), 2 handed with a long pole (polearm, spear, staff, etc), 2 handed bladed (big honkin sword, probably axe), and a bow for all missile weapons. I’d say you could leave out shields in all cases.

We have animations for 8 weapon types: dagger, sword, axe, hammer, spear, bow, crossbow, throwing stuff. Currently there is no shield animation. The animation is the same for all weapons within a group (i.e. same animation for both short sword and 2H sword)

Big version first, "lite" version later also seems like the way to hit the market IMO.

It does sound like a good idea.

 

[Astromarine]

please look into the multiplatform thing. Selling 1000 Linux copies is unappealing if your business plan requires 100000 sales to break even, but not if it requires 3 or 4 thousand. Plus Linux (and, I believe, Mac) have pretty established game-sites (check out happypenguin.org) where a much larger percentage of the gamers for the platform hang out, when compared to Windows. It's basically free advertising, though you'll have to cope with the inevitable "you should open-source it" morons. Of course, that's always an option if you have non-licensed engines and separation of the data portion (think .wad files).

 

[Vault Dweller]

Good point, Astro. That, I think, is one of the reasons why Spiderweb is doing well.

 

[EEVIAC]

Speaking of free advertising (and distibution,) another idea to consider is trying to get the game placed on magazine cover disks. Both Geneforge 2 and Blades Of Avernum have been on the PCPP DVD here in Australia. I'm not sure if that led to more sales, but it couldn't have hurt.

 

[PennyAnte]

VD: I've been reading through some of the earlier threads you highlighted about the game, like weapons and repair. I wanted to note that I prefer custom-built items to random treasure drops. (Sorry for the length of that post.) I did read that tinkering and upgrading is in your game, which I think is great. While a lot of my post was written assuming the existence of magical items in a Diablo or Morrowind type setting, I think it could apply just as well to all kinds of materials, enchantments aside.

For example, maybe you plan on having bone bows with sinew in some glacial kind of northern area, and wooden bows and steelmaking in temperate locations, etc. I haven't read all the existing info on your setting and so forth yet, so apoligies if you already ruled out that kind of landscape variety. But anyway, while your item system is probably set in stone by now, I'm excited to see what you worked out.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Speaking of free advertising (and distibution,) another idea to consider is trying to get the game placed on magazine cover disks. Both Geneforge 2 and Blades Of Avernum have been on the PCPP DVD here in Australia. I'm not sure if that led to more sales, but it couldn't have hurt.

Definitely. Good idea, EEVIAC, I haven't really thought of that.

I wanted to note that I prefer custom-built items to random treasure drops.

No random treasure drops, not a single one. The crafting works like that:

1. Depending on your crafting skills you'd be able to increase the damage, attack speed, etc
2. You can find/buy different ore (bronze, iron, steel, etc) and make a new blade or arrow heads, etc assuming that you are skilled enough, of course
3. You can find and understand different runes (writtings, not Diablo-like stones) if your lore skill is good, and then draw the runes on your blade.
4. My favorite, if you are skilled with alchemy, you can add fun stuff like poison, greek fire-like coating to have that flaming sword+1 effect, etc

For example, maybe you plan on having bone bows with sinew in some glacial kind of northern area, and wooden bows and steelmaking in temperate locations, etc.

The events take place in a relatively small area - a province of a fallen empire.