I was wrong

Vault Dweller said:

This is the Codex. If you are looking for a site to post "what's your fave class?" and The Diablo Experience: your first character, you are in the wrong place. Here we discuss and analyze games to death.

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I think you secretly enjoys visiting such forums. I bet it's your favorite pastime. First Elder Scrolls, now Hellgate. Where will you be next?

OBSIDIAN, where else?!!!!

The Chosen One Must Choose! Anyone remember this one?

I remember that. It's a shame really. A mod that humorous, you would think there would be a few laughs when it dies. But I heard nothing about it after that.

Hey, I was looking for that one. Thanks, VD.

merry andrew said:

DarkUnderlord said:

Do you want to address the rest of what I said now, or did you just want to avoid the issue again?

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Isn't "the issue" a bunch of angry cunts complaining furiously about a game that none of them have played and currently know very little about?

you people want details bad. It's like all the insults and lack of confidence in Bethesda (although you seem to effortlessly have extremely high expectations for what Oblivion should be) are nothing more than a ploy to coerce new information.

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That's not the whole picture. I suspect a big motivation for all the 'bitching' about Oblivion is because of a large number of people who loved Daggerfall, and saw the best things about it chopped, neutered, thrown away for the sequel. TES is still the best 3D rpg gameworld around for a lot of us, and so there's a lot of trepidation about the next one - the property is in a way bigger than Bethsoft.

Thats right, BIGGER THAN BETHSOFT.

Twinfalls said:

TES is still the best 3D rpg gameworld around for a lot of us,

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who is the other one?

Twinfalls said:

That's not the whole picture. I suspect a big motivation for all the 'bitching' about Oblivion is because of a large number of people who loved Daggerfall, and saw the best things about it chopped, neutered, thrown away for the sequel. TES is still the best 3D rpg gameworld around for a lot of us, and so there's a lot of trepidation about the next one - the property is in a way bigger than Bethsoft.

Thats right, BIGGER THAN BETHSOFT.

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Ah, well VD told me that only a handful of people were Daggerfall fans, so I dunno how well I can survive with two voices in my head like that.

VD has admitted in this thread that he's frigged himself gently over the Daggerfall experience.

merry andrew said:

Ah, well VD told me that only a handful of people were Daggerfall fans, so I dunno how well I can survive with two voices in my head like that.

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Otaku was the biggest DF fan, but he's missing in action. I believe 2-3 people have also stated that they liked DF but that's about it. 90% of people who are bitching about Oblivion, do that because MW sucked, not because they liked DF that much.

K.

I'm a Daggerfall fan and I think Morrowind sucked.

I think Morrowind sucked as an RPG and that impression was re-enforced by the things that had been changed from Daggerfall - for me it just emphasised the disparity. Daggerfall, while not a great RPG, was for me one of, if not my favourite CRPGs of all time.

That said I did find Morrowind a pleasent enough diversion but only because there was so little of note available elsewhere! It was okay as a fantasy action/adventure game and had enough RPG-like qualities to keep me interested but that's about it.

I am indeed annoyed that a 'Daggerfall II' type game was never made. Oblivion looks like it had the potential but the more I learn the more I realise that they are moving away from the RPG (hell, even the CRPG!) and focusing on the fantasy action/adventure genre.

I admit that a true CRPG may be one of the most difficult games to make but I don't think that is any reason to a) not try, and b) not criticise flaws in games that try to pass themselves off as a CRPG.

I think that RadientAI (scripting packages on a framework) has the potential to create the most realistic CRPG to date (regarding a dynamic, interactive gameworld) but the focus on graphics and audio above gameplay (and conformity to RPG ideals - that is to say that the focus is on the character and not the player!) have placed undesireable restrictions on the game. Current processors could likely process many times the number of NPCs available even with an overall increase in the level and complexity of the AI scripts being run. The problem is representing the complex actions either a) graphically on the screen (mostly animation problems I would have thought), or b) through 'spoken text' (until spoken text can be dynamically synthesised - I know there are projects out there but I don't know how intensive the applications are or how much rercorded voice is needed to create a suitably large library).

But of course DF must have sucked too, with NONE of the quest giving NPC being killable. The horror! The insult!

Don't presume that an emphasis in MARKETING on graphics (because it's visible and obvious) and AI (because it's one of the most significant new features of the game) reflects an emphasis solely on those two facets in DEVELOPMENT of the game. Again -- just because we haven't spoken about other things doesn't mean they're not in the game.

Well, having unkillable NPCs is a bit of a downer but, honestly, most games have them. I just really hope that is not the sort of thing we see in FO3 (unkillable NPCs and the type of game design that requires them...).

GhanBuriGhan said:

But of course DF must have sucked too, with NONE of the quest giving NPC being killable. The horror! The insult!

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As I said it was not the greatest RPG ever but it does a damned sight better than most CRPGs out there!

While it would be nice to kill everyone and everything if you so chose I rarely choose to. There was more choice in Daggerfall than Morrowind so it made it easier to forgive those restrictions that were present.

If the spiritual successor to Daggerfall is ever made then I would expect not such restrictions. They've had long enough to figure out how to create a game without such dependencies. (By 'they' I mean CRPG developers in general)

MrSmileyFaceDude said:

Don't presume that an emphasis in MARKETING on graphics (because it's visible and obvious) and AI (because it's one of the most significant new features of the game) reflects an emphasis solely on those two facets in DEVELOPMENT of the game. Again -- just because we haven't spoken about other things doesn't mean they're not in the game.

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I'm not sure whether that was posted in response to my own post - but I'm pretty arrogant so I'll assume it was...

The way I see it the the focus on graphics and audio can be detrimental to other 'features' such as dialog (especially when dealing with dynamically, possibly randomly, generated information) and movement/combat (focusing on animation).

I'm also of the opinion (I have one or two... ) that the AI will be limited because it will not be used to it's full potential - creation and completion of dynamically constructed 'quests'; although that in turn I would attribute to a lack of thin-NPC characters, with skeletal histories that pass-through the game world as parts or originators of 'quests', other than guards and bandits (and we don't know how they will be handled either!). As you point out no-one has said specifically that dynamically created quests or thin-NPCs are in but as they can only be seen as a good thing surely they would be part of the PR hype about the new AI if they were to be in? (Well, I say that they can only be seen as a good thing but there are some pretty wierd people out there who might in their maddness disagree with me! )

I'm not saying that major plot-lines should be sacrificed - just that mundane quests that emerge from every day life should handle themselves... Although a greater redundancy in major plots might me nice too

Maybe establish a method of communicating plot/quest details from NPC to NPC? If intercommunication between NPCs was used in this way a plot can be preserved with relational information to tweak the plot on the fly. If random NPCs are to be used rather NPCs with a pre-defined relationship then character attributes can be used such as sex, race, affiliations, rank, time and other disposing factors. Indeed a plot may be hijacked in certain situations where the NPC is sufficiently disposed to change the quest criteria... Hell, the original NPC doesn't even need to be dead for that. This intercommunication framework could also be used for information disemmination of other types as well. Of course this would benefit from some proper AI where NPCs 'learn' based on the raw information they receive...

As highly-redundant a failover system as you create though I am sure the technology is a restriction at the end of the day there may need to be an allowance for quests/plots to die.

MrSmileyFaceDude said:

Again -- just because we haven't spoken about other things doesn't mean they're not in the game.

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That covers a lot of things, doesn't it? Basically, it's like saying "the game is real pretty and the AI is like totally bitching, but IMAGINE the rest!!!!" I hope that vivid imagination isn't one of the requirements to play the game.

Vault Dweller said:

MrSmileyFaceDude said:

Again -- just because we haven't spoken about other things doesn't mean they're not in the game.

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That covers a lot of things, doesn't it? Basically, it's like saying "the game is real pretty and the AI is like totally bitching, but IMAGINE the rest!!!!" I hope that vivid imagination isn't one of the requirements to play the game.

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You don't think it'll be an RPG game then?

I think it will be really pretty. With pretty characters in pretty armors walking around creating the sense of overall prettiness and awesomenes. I like the forests, they are really pretty too. I think I'd like to go for a walk in such an awesome forest listening to the soothing voice of Patric Stewart.

Not sure about anything else though

Vault Dweller said:

I think it will be really pretty. With pretty characters in pretty armors walking around creating the sense of overall prettiness and awesomenes. I like the forests, they are really pretty too. I think I'd like to go for a walk in such an awesome forest listening to the soothing voice of Patric Stewart.

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I like games with realistic environments and FPP for their immersiveness. I like to feel I'm in another world, and get away from life for a while. Doesn't matter what the game genre is: FPS, Action Adventure, RPG, Tank sim... I think I've liked this style of immersion & presentation since playing Doom & UU2 years ago. It's why I bought Daggerfall, and then Morrowind before any reviews (and Arx, oopsie) - had they been 3rd person or iso I probably would have waited for a review. It's not like I only play FPP games, I've enjoyed other styles (Longest Journey, FO1&2, PST, BG2, Total War and many others) and will continue to do so. I do have a weakness for cutting-edge reslistic FPP though, and so do many others.

I *do* want to go for a walk in the forests of Oblivion. I *do* want the shiney graphics. I could probably do without Picard's voice though... I also want the game to have a more reactive world, have consequences, have balance in PC stats so there are hard descisions, quests that mean something, a main quest that is an objective with many ways to achieve that objective rather than a fixed linear 'solution'.. I could go on, but I think you get the gist.

So what if things are like MSFD keeps hinting at?? What if they really will have a good RPG behind all the presentation and flash? What if it really does answer all/some of the shorcomings of MW? Would the graphics & shiney bits be okay then VD? Or would you still hate them?

Just curious.

Personally if it is then it will probably be my top game of all time, if not then somewhere down the order like MW.

H.

Hazelnut said:

So what if things are like MSFD keeps hinting at?? What if they really will have a good RPG behind all the presentation and flash? What if it really does answer all/some of the shorcomings of MW? Would the graphics & shiney bits be okay then VD? Or would you still hate them?

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There is nothing wrong with nice graphics and immersive worlds. However, if a game - and I'm not saying that Oblivion is definitely such a game - has nothing to offer but the shiny graphics, then it becomes a problem. That's what my post meant, that's all we know about Oblivion at this point. Frankly, considering that the game could be released in 4-6 months, I'm surpised that no substantial info has been released. I see no reason for such a delay, other than the logical one - what they have isn't good enough to reveal.

Two months before release is still pretty damn late for releasing information.

Vault Dweller said:

I see no reason for such a delay, other than the logical one - what they have isn't good enough to reveal.

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Not necessarily. Wasn't Bethesda known for releasing considerably little info about their projects, prefering instead to mention a couple of things but releasing the game with its content still largely a mystery? I find that's good approach when it comes to not feeding too many expectations to the easilly impressionable (something the majority of their fanbase seems to be, unfortunately).

Role-Player said:

Wasn't Bethesda known for releasing considerably little info about their projects, prefering instead to mention a couple of things but releasing the game with its content still largely a mystery?

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Yup.

MrSmileyFaceDude said:

Look in the green box in the lower right corner.

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Dude, where's the PC Gamer exclusive?

Vault Dweller said:

Hazelnut said:

So what if things are like MSFD keeps hinting at?? What if they really will have a good RPG behind all the presentation and flash? What if it really does answer all/some of the shorcomings of MW? Would the graphics & shiney bits be okay then VD? Or would you still hate them?

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There is nothing wrong with nice graphics and immersive worlds. However, if a game - and I'm not saying that Oblivion is definitely such a game - has nothing to offer but the shiny graphics, then it becomes a problem. That's what my post meant, that's all we know about Oblivion at this point. Frankly, considering that the game could be released in 4-6 months, I'm surpised that no substantial info has been released. I see no reason for such a delay, other than the logical one - what they have isn't good enough to reveal.

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So, basically, what it boils down to is we're all on the edge of our seats waiting to see what the game will be like when it is released.. it's just the way people deal with the anticipation that differs! One one end you have the optimists; very excited fanboys - "This will be teh best game ever!!!", and on the other end of the scale the pessimists who don't want to get their hopes up - "This game is being dumbed down and will suck like MW!"

All because of the vacuum of information about the gameplay - all we know is ~MW+?, yay or arghh, depending on your viewpoint! I can understand why Beth keep all except for the 'speak for themselves' facts (qfx, voice acting etc) quiet.. they don't want pre-concieved notions or mis-understandings (which has happened several times) of quite difficult to explain aspects of the game to set false expectations I suppose.

I think I'm somewhere in the middle of the scale, but we all simply have to wait and see.. in many ways it's best not to have raised expectations because being disapointed is not as nice as being pleasantly surprised or even just okay.

H.