What's with you guys and The Fall?

[Jed]

Ok, German lessons #2:

Friss Scheiße und stirb.

One of teh most used comments in this forum - and showing it's level.

I prefer the Olde American Southern English phrase, which translates roughly as: Scheiße und Fall zurück in sie.

Now go do it!

PS- PAGE NINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[POOPERSCOOPER]

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<bogatir> nice channel, such an interesting conversation
<Larry> fuck you bastards
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<bogatir> lol
<Raymondo> I think we have bots.
<Raymondo> NOES!
<bogatir> weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee
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<Raymondo> OMG That hurt.
<Raymondo> Really, I'm crying.
<Raymondo> You could at least call it the RPGcodex.
<Raymondo> Wait, who am I talking to?
<Asshole> I dont know, who are you talking to?
<Asshole> yourself?
<Raymondo> Maybe, nigga.
* Asshole is an asshole not a nigga
<Asshole> fucker
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<Raymondo> Yeah I'm a mother-ya-fucker!
<Asshole> fuck off
<Raymondo> OMG I WAS HERE FIRST!
<Raymondo> You fux of!
<Asshole> fux? never heard of it
<Nico|Seinfeld> fuxy foxs
<Asshole> fuck you also
<Nico|Seinfeld> omg ur so ruff n tuff
<Asshole> thanks
<Nico|Seinfeld> anytime, faget
<Asshole> faggot is spelled F-A-G-G-O-T, faggot
<Raymondo> URDEDFAGET!
<Nico|Seinfeld> woah, really?
<Pooperscooper1> OMG BAD BOYS 4 LIFE
<Asshole> at least i can spell
<Raymondo> WOW you can do magic?
<Nico|Seinfeld> well, yeah, but your sucking makes up for that
<Asshole> fuck you
<Nico|Seinfeld>
<Nico|Seinfeld> can't you do any better than that?
<Asshole> hmmm
<Raymondo> Hmmm
<Asshole> Fuck you bastard
<Raymondo> Hmmm#
<Pooperscooper1> omg he got ud
<Pooperscooper1> s
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<Raymondo> Oh great more bum people.
<Asshole> to dulitue you fucked up peaple
<piradas> Raymondo: and?
<Raymondo> And?
<Pooperscooper1> why we so fucked up?
<Pooperscooper1> TEH FALL!!11
<piradas> ask yer mother 'bout it
<Pooperscooper1> SHES SAYS I'M SPECIASL DUDE
<Pooperscooper1> AND UR A BUTTMONK
<Raymondo> Dulitue? Yeah you can spell.
<Asshole> i think i spelled it right fucker
<Pooperscooper1> no u didnt asshole
<piradas> she thinks you're special?? maybe she's like you?
<Pooperscooper1> OMG COMEBACK +10 I"M DOOMED
<Pooperscooper1> CHEATS PLZ
<Raymondo> I think he means "Dilute" but I can't be sure.
<Pooperscooper1> ya, asshole has his head in the wrong places
<Asshole> Dilute
<Asshole> samething
<Pooperscooper1> your time was up faggot
* piradas fucks Raymondo in teh ass
<Raymondo> Oh no, someone fucked me over the internet.
<Pooperscooper1> ya thats a serious offense
<Raymondo> Cyberrape.
<piradas> no, it's normal codex style
<Asshole> fucking something you know \nothing about
<Pooperscooper1> are you guys pissed off because of teh fall not being liked?
<piradas> actually: no
<Asshole> no
<Pooperscooper1> omg pystary
<Pooperscooper1> m
<piradas> doesn't really matter what you gous think about it
<Asshole> were pissed cuz you hate it for no reason
<Raymondo> Why are you here then?
<Pooperscooper1> But in the end, did it even really matter?
<Nico|Seinfeld> haha
<Nico|Seinfeld> you actually get pissed on people who doesn't like a certain game? :D
<Raymondo> You guys shouldn't be so worried about other people's opinions.
<piradas> well, i'm not pissed, i simply like yer sophisticated style
<Raymondo> Do something more productive with your time.
<Asshole> yah well
<Pooperscooper1> lol gooseface
<Nico|Seinfeld> getto gewse
<piradas> hey, asshole, gotta call lena
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<Asshole> ok
<Raymondo> I bet piradas is Cokol.
<Pooperscooper1> probably
<Asshole> yah
<Asshole> so why are you pissed that Carsten uses the fallout name?
<Pooperscooper1> cause he doesnt know fallout
<Pooperscooper1> and he doesnt listen to us
<Pooperscooper1> we just want to be loved
<Raymondo> Because he?s using the name just to promote his product.
<Asshole> what we your suggestions
<Raymondo> Me, I have none.
<Pooperscooper1> like TB combat and fixing portraits and stuff
<Asshole> whats wrong with the portirats
<Raymondo> I'm not really to bothered with the fall, I don't like him using the name but I'm not going to waste my time complaining about it.
<Pooperscooper1> we saw some crossed eyed protraits and he went all "OMG NO MY THOUGHT BETTER"
<Pooperscooper1> i think it was the guy with a short arm
<Pooperscooper1> who drew them
<Asshole> you know how many times he says that this is not fallout
<Asshole> TB combat would be too big a change
<Asshole> anyone have a link to the protrats
<Pooperscooper1> http://www.silver-style.com/images_home ... ffmann.jpg
<Nico|Seinfeld> heh
<Nico|Seinfeld> what a freak :O
<Pooperscooper1> lol
<Asshole> think thats a programmer
<Pooperscooper1> we dont know what he is
<Asshole> also what did you problems did you have with SOA?
<Nico|Seinfeld> it sucked
<Raymondo> Never played it
<Asshole> more spicifice?
<Raymondo> I've never played it, ever.
<Pooperscooper1> there threads on DAC about it
<Nico|Seinfeld> no, it just sucked
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<Asshole> so, what other ideas did you have about the fall?
<Nico|Seinfeld> never had any
<Asshole> poop? ray?
<Raymondo> I told you, I didn't have any.
<Asshole> i have a poor memory
<Pooperscooper1> http://www.thevats.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=7573
<Asshole> arrghh
<Asshole> they are cross-eyed
<Nico|Seinfeld> hey Asshole, did you read that article about The Fall on www.peoplesprimary.com? the second newsbit from the top
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<Raymondo> What website never works for me.
<Raymondo> *That
<Nico|Seinfeld> try accessing it through a proxy
<Raymondo> Ok
<Nico|Seinfeld> guardster mebbe
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[simmschn]

Care to elaborate? It's quite possible that I was misinformed, so do tell why you believe that The Fall is a real RPG and the best thing for the (real) Fallout fans.

"Real RPGs" are for me real RPGs, not some Diablo or DungeonSiege clones and not any crossovers with other genres (like Spellforce or Deus Ex/System Shock). How much real RPGs did we have this year or last year? 4? 8? Depends if we count the expansion packs in? And how many of them have really been very good? None? And how many real RPGs will be produced in the next year by non-indie studios? Gothic3, Dragon Age and some new games from Eastern European developers?

Face it, we have a crisis and we won't have many real RPGs in the next years. The Fall is one of them and it's probably the only one with a post-acolyptic scenario. Do you know what risk it is to develop a non-fantasy CRPG? Those brave developers need our support, but instead the famous Fallout-community is just showing that the most vocal ones of them are assholes. We will have enough time to destroy the game, when it shows its weaknesses after it is published. There is no need to discourage the game developers before![/quote]

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

If a developer dislikes the opinion of a fan, or group of fans, he's entitled to. But asking for input, then rejecting said input based on dubious reasons, is wrong no matter what you or anyone else says. Devs are spending their time asking for our opinions and we spend our time giving it to them. If they aren't corteous and level-headed on some ocasions, then why should we be?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Face it, we have a crisis...

Here is a good question for you: Is it possible that we have that crisis because there are way too many crappy RPGs that fail to convince publishers to support the RPG genre? So, by supporting crappy RPGs, aren't we helping the genre's stagnation?

The Fall is one of them....

One of what? Real RPGs? The game that was designed without speech skill in mind is a real RPG? Riiiight.

and it's probably the only one with a post-acolyptic scenario.

Not really. How about some fact-checking before you post something? It's a friendly advice.

Do you know what risk it is to develop a non-fantasy CRPG?

No. Do you? There is a number of non-fantasy RPGs in development right now. Also, many people are sick and tied of fantasy RPGs right now, so a good sci-fi game would probably do much better then yet another fantasy crap.

Those brave developers need our support, but instead the famous Fallout-community is just showing that the most vocal ones of them are assholes.

I'll repeat my question that you ignored. What makes The Fall a good RPG? Convince me.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

and it's probably the only one with a post-acolyptic scenario.

Not really. How about some fact-checking before you post something? It's a friendly advice.

Now i'm halfway convinced this guy is trolling, specially because he repeats the same claim right after i linked to several other PA games under development.

 

[Raymondo]

Do you know what risk it is to develop a non-fantasy CRPG?

No. Do you? There is a number of non-fantasy RPGs in development right now. Also, many people are sick and tied of fantasy RPGs right now, so a good sci-fi game would probably do much better then yet another fantasy crap.

The only risk is trying to impress the publishers since publishers don’t like new, creative things. Another reason why the fantasy subgenre would be less-risky is probably to do with the fact that the fantasy subgenre has been fully explored so it’s just a case of renewing ideas rather then creating new ones. Overall it’s hardly a big risk if you’re creative enough and you should be if you’re working in the video games industry.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Now i'm halfway convinced this guy is trolling, specially because he repeats the same claim right after i linked to several other PA games under development.

No, I think he belongs to the group of people whose opinions couldn't be changed once formed:

simmschn: The RPG genre is in crisis. The Fall is the last true RPG, and the only PA game in the world. People should promote it and celebrate its existence, it's so awesome that its in development.

I don't think that anything can get through that logic.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Face it, we have a crisis and we won't have many real RPGs in the next years. The Fall is one of them and it's probably the only one with a post-acolyptic scenario. Do you know what risk it is to develop a non-fantasy CRPG?

Actually, no, I don't know how risky it is to try a non fantasy CRPG, because it's just not done much. The last non-traditional fantasy CRPG that comes to mind was KotOR, and it bombed really hard without those elves and platemails - except it didn't bomb.

Those brave developers need our support, but instead the famous Fallout-community is just showing that the most vocal ones of them are assholes.

Brave? Eh? Are we talking about the brave developers who's first game was a Baldur's Gate clone? Who's second game was a Fallout Tactics clone using real time with pause rather than the RT/TB system? Who's third game is basically their second game with a few more bits of dialogue and a little more character development? That's not risk, that's regurgitation.

We will have enough time to destroy the game, when it shows its weaknesses after it is published. There is no need to discourage the game developers before.

Hey, I'm not even saying The Fall will suck, what I am saying is that you people have WAY too much faith in SSE given their previous stabs at making good games. You people are also way too willing to buy in to a lot of the hype that they've been spewing about how you should love them because they're making such a risky title.

If there's a crisis in the CRPG arena, then one problem with it are developers like SSE. They're the developers who chase trends like the real time with pause = teh win!!!11 notion of diminishing interactive returns. They're the ones that latch on to some success someone else had and just spin their wheels in the sand of me-too-ism digging deeper towards the hard granite bedrock of mediocrity.

 

[Jed]

If there's a crisis in the CRPG arena, then one problem with it are developers like SSE. They're the developers who chase trends like the real time with pause = teh win!!!11 notion of diminishing interactive returns. They're the ones that latch on to some success someone else had and just spin their wheels in the sand of me-too-ism digging deeper towards the hard granite bedrock of mediocrity.

I love it when Saint gets all poetic and shit.

 

[simmschn]

Saint Proverbius:

The last non-traditional fantasy CRPG that comes to mind was KotOR, and it bombed really hard without those elves and platemails - except it didn't bomb.

You know that it probably would have bombed like Anachronox, if it wouldn't have the Star Wars license. If you have this license you can sell everything. Fortunately for us KOTOR was really good. It's a simple fact that fantasy RPG s are selling better than anything else. There are even some people here on RPGCodex, who write that they prefer fantasy games because it's easier for them to get immersed. Me personally, I would love to have games with more different scenarios.

Brave? Eh? Are we talking about the brave developers who's first game was a Baldur's Gate clone? Who's second game was a Fallout Tactics clone using real time with pause rather than the RT/TB system? Who's third game is basically their second game with a few more bits of dialogue and a little more character development? That's not risk, that's regurgitation.

Please be fair. Nearly every single cool game developer started this way. For example Westwood first made with "Eye of the Beholder 1+2" clones of "Dungeon Master", before they put more innovations in with their "Lands of Lore" series. Or Blizzard entertainment, their first "Warcraft" game was a shameless copy of Westwood's "Dune 2", there are countless other examples. Unfortunately small companies have to do this, because they have to minimize the risk. If their first or second title bombs, they are finished. SSE's new game is something which is not a copy of an other game, for the very first time. We should stay open-minded!

Hey, I'm not even saying The Fall will suck, what I am saying is that you people have WAY too much faith in SSE given their previous stabs at making good games. You people are also way too willing to buy in to a lot of the hype that they've been spewing about how you should love them because they're making such a risky title.

Unfortunately you are the only one here, who doesn't say that "The Fall" will suck, the rest already has his/her opinion, which cannot be changed. Personally I will read the reviews, when the game is out, and then I will decide, if I buy the game or not. And up to then I will be fair to one of the very few game developers who really develop an RPG for a minority of the games market.

And by the way Saint, too much hype is really not a problem of "The Fall".

 

[Ausir]

And remember how Carsten had tried the same thing with JA license that he did with the Fallout one?

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Hey, I'm not even saying The Fall will suck, what I am saying is that you people have WAY too much faith in SSE given their previous stabs at making good games. You people are also way too willing to buy in to a lot of the hype that they've been spewing about how you should love them because they're making such a risky title.

Unfortunately you are the only one here, who doesn't say that "The Fall" will suck, the rest already has his/her opinion, which cannot be changed.

Actually, "everyone else" has different opinions. I don't particularly have any gripes towards the game (yet). Dhruin and fnordcircle could care less about the Fallout name-dropping and are keeping an open mind towards the game. Other people here likely feel the same way, except they probably don't have the patience to say it everytime morons decide to invade the site because some dislike it.

And by the way Saint, too much hype is really not a problem of "The Fall".

Of course, hiring two ex-Black Isle employees who worked on the cancelled Fallout 3 to work on their psot-apocalyptic game did not generate any hype. Of course, Carsten telling everyone that he was trying to negotiate the Fallout license with Interplay wasn't really generating any hype. No sir.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

You know that it probably would have bombed like Anachronox, if it wouldn't have the Star Wars license. If you have this license you can sell everything. Fortunately for us KOTOR was really good. It's a simple fact that fantasy RPG s are selling better than anything else.

I ignored Anachronox because it looked like a goofy console style CRPG. Same reason I ignored Septerra Core. If I wanted to play console style CRPGs, I'd have bought a console.

I also think the name "BioWare" had more to do with KotOR's success than the name, "Star Wars". There are all kinds of Star Wars games which don't do very well.

There are even some people here on RPGCodex, who write that they prefer fantasy games because it's easier for them to get immersed. Me personally, I would love to have games with more different scenarios.

I would as well, but I'd rather have a well made CRPG in a fantasy setting than a piss poor one in a unique setting.

Please be fair. Nearly every single cool game developer started this way. For example Westwood first made with "Eye of the Beholder 1+2" clones of "Dungeon Master", before they put more innovations in with their "Lands of Lore" series.

Westwood's been around longer than Eye of the Beholder. They made those Battletech inspired CRPGs for Interplay, and they also did some ports of some SSI games like Roadwar 2000 and Roadwar Europa.

The Battletech CRPGs didn't really use any of the Battletech rules, either. They made the character system and combat system from scratch. Basically, they just used the Battletech mech names and a few names from the background story of the universe. Battletech also wasn't very well known back then, either.

Or Blizzard entertainment, their first "Warcraft" game was a shameless copy of Westwood's "Dune 2", there are countless other examples.

Blizzard was on the map as early as 1990 when they made that Lord of the Rings CRPG for the Amiga series of computers. They also made BlackThorne and a few other games for various companies.

Just for kicks, both Blizzard and Westwood were both, at one time, contracted to develop for Interplay.

Unfortunately small companies have to do this, because they have to minimize the risk.

It's more risky to clone things. Many small developers make clones, those clones go on to lose money, and those small companies go on to die shamefully. There are a hell of a lot of Warcraft/Starcraft clones, and a lot of those companies don't exist anymore. Same thing with Diablo clones. You don't make bank by making something someone else with a larger budget and marketting potential already made.

Case in point, Pirhana Bytes' Gothic.

If their first or second title bombs, they are finished. SSE's new game is something which is not a copy of an other game, for the very first time. We should stay open-minded!

SSE's first and second title did bomb.

Unfortunately you are the only one here, who doesn't say that "The Fall" will suck, the rest already has his/her opinion, which cannot be changed.

No, several people have said that they don't know if it'll be good or not, but they remain skeptical given SSE's previous titles. That's pretty much my position as well. I think the odds of The Fall being a good CRPG are lower than they would be if it were being done by Larian or Pirhana Bytes, or some other European developer. Obsidian or BioWare would probably do a much better job at it.

That's just an opinion based on the trend of SSE's previous titles, and the fact they seem more concerned with making the bank than making the game just lowers those odds that much more.

Personally I will read the reviews, when the game is out, and then I will decide, if I buy the game or not. And up to then I will be fair to one of the very few game developers who really develop an RPG for a minority of the games market.

I doubt they are making it for the minority of the market. They're going with that whole real time with paused combat they think is so wonderful, even though it doesn't work so well with ranged combat. They probably should have learned from the mistakes of the developers who made Another War in that respect. However, they think that real time with pause sells games, so that's what they're making.

And by the way Saint, too much hype is really not a problem of "The Fall".

Then how'd you hear about it?

 

[simmschn]

Of course, hiring two ex-Black Isle employees who worked on the cancelled Fallout 3 to work on their psot-apocalyptic game did not generate any hype. Of course, Carsten telling everyone that he was trying to negotiate the Fallout license with Interplay wasn't really generating any hype. No sir.

I think living in your small Fallout fanworld really made you a blind. Do you really think that's hype??!!! Hiring two second-class ex-employees from Black Isle for a short time is hype for you? In which world do you live? The only role-playing company which can produce real hype is BioWare, but even their show is limited to what gigants like EA can do.

Face it, there is no hype about "The Fall" and there will never be any hype. The company is too small, the publishers will be too small and target audience is much too small. SSE is nearly a indie devloper, if you compare the team size and budget.

I am really annoyed of the arrogance here. You have to realize that we are a minority, we won't get more than one good role-playing games per year. We can't afford to be complete assholes to everyone who tries to make something we can play. Just look to the adventure gamers, they have nice communities with a strong solidarity. They play no needless bashing games, they support the few adventure developers they have. And they have been successful, because of their support of the adventure genre (at least here in Europe) has returned in a big way. We have now new publishers, which concentrate themselves on high quality adventure games, and make perfect localisations and produce revolutionary titles. And these new companies say in every interview that they would have never invested the money, if they wouldn't have received the major support from the adventure community over the last years.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Unfortunately you are the only one here, who doesn't say that "The Fall" will suck, the rest already has his/her opinion, which cannot be changed.

Really? I offered you twice to show me good sides of The Fall. You ignored, which sorta lead me to believe that you have no idea why The Fall is a good game, but just like to believe that it is.

And up to then I will be fair to one of the very few game developers who really develop an RPG for a minority of the games market.

It looks like you are repeating words you don't fully understand.

Do you really think that's hype??!!! Hiring two second-class ex-employees from Black Isle for a short time is hype for you?

Of course, it's a hype, you nearsighted fool. Do you think that they could have contributed anything? No. They were there for one reason only: to draw attention.

The company is too small, the publishers will be too small and target audience is much too small.

And that is exactly why all these talks about the Fallout/JA licenses, all these ex-BIS developers working for SS, etc are nothing but hype. Although to give Carsten his credit, it did work out.

I am really annoyed of the arrogance here. You have to realize that we are a minority, we won't get more than one good role-playing games per year

Not with this attitude, you won't.

 

[simmschn]

I ignored Anachronox because it looked like a goofy console style CRPG. Same reason I ignored Septerra Core. If I wanted to play console style CRPGs, I'd have bought a console.

Anachronox was one of the best and deepest role-playing experiences I ever had, along with Ultima 7 Part 2, Ultima Underworld and Wizardry 7. It was way better than KOTOR, simply an underrated classic of all time. You really should give it a try, it will not disappoint you.

I also think the name "BioWare" had more to do with KotOR's success than the name, "Star Wars". There are all kinds of Star Wars games which don't do very well.

You can't be serious?! The casual gamers are not interested, which developer made a game, they don't know the name "Bioware". But they know "Star Wars" and there has never been a title in this franchise which really flopped in a big way. That's why we get this constant stream of miserable StarWars games.

I would as well, but I'd rather have a well made CRPG in a fantasy setting than a piss poor one in a unique setting.

That's not the question! I would prefer a rather well made CRPG in a non-fantasy setting than a rather well made one in a fantasy setting. But I belong to minority, I know!

Westwood's been around longer than Eye of the Beholder. They made those Battletech inspired CRPGs for Interplay, and they also did some ports of some SSI games like Roadwar 2000 and Roadwar Europa.

I know, but it was their first real role-playing game. And it doesn't change the fact: At that time they were small developers who mainly ported games to other systems and made contractional work for others (like SSI). Their innovative games came at a later pint with, Lands of Lore and Dune2/Command & Conquer.

[q]It's more risky to clone things. Many small developers make clones, those clones go on to lose money, and those small companies go on to die shamefully. There are a hell of a lot of Warcraft/Starcraft clones, and a lot of those companies don't exist anymore. Same thing with Diablo clones. You don't make bank by making something someone else with a larger budget and marketting potential already made. [/q]
You can't be serious! Again!!! Why do you think we have only clones and serials??? Why do you think we have less than one orginal new idea in a game per year? Why do you think why we have seen nearly every element of a modern game before in older games? The companies who produce mindless clones are highly successful, much more than the companies who try to produce something orginal. Look to the EA Sport series, the car racing games, the Baldur's Gate series, the Icewind Dale series, the Thief series, the ....
I could go on for hours! Saint, you should really take a fresh look to what is produced right now.

Case in point, Pirhana Bytes' Gothic.

Don't get me started on our only hope for a perfect role-playing game. Gothic 3 will rock!

SSE's first and second title did bomb.

So what? I admire their staying power. There are countless developers out there which produces many shit games, before they had their first hit. I don't know if "The Fall" will be a bit, but I will stay open-minded.

No, several people have said that they don't know if it'll be good or not, but they remain skeptical given SSE's previous titles. That's pretty much my position as well. I think the odds of The Fall being a good CRPG are lower than they would be if it were being done by Larian or Pirhana Bytes, or some other European developer. Obsidian or BioWare would probably do a much better job at it

Larian: made a fantastic "Divine Divinity", but "Beyond Divinity" was boring and without any postive values of their first title. Both titles play in an uninteresting fantasy setting.
Piranha Bytes: Perhaps the best role-playing company, but their "Gothic" series is based in a common fantasy setting.
Obsidian: Small developer, which makes a clone as their first game. I told you already why, they had no other chance. They are far away from having the freedom to develop anything like "The Fall".
Bioware: The only company here, which really can develop whatever they want. And what did they choose: A common fantasy setting with dragons! Thank you very much!
By the way, it will be a clone of Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights.

I doubt they are making it for the minority of the market. They're going with that whole real time with paused combat they think is so wonderful, even though it doesn't work so well with ranged combat. They probably should have learned from the mistakes of the developers who made Another War in that respect. However, they think that real time with pause sells games, so that's what they're making.

Please don't simplify it to the question: real-time vs. turn-based combat.
By the way, if it would have been "turn-based" the majority here would cry even louder that "The Fall" wants to be a third Fallout game.

Then how'd you hear about it?

I am a hardcore role-playing gamer. I played nearly every CRPG in the last 12 years and many of the older games. So, I always know which games are produced. But I am not the majority.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

I think living in your small Fallout fanworld really made you a blind. Do you really think that's hype??!!! Hiring two second-class ex-employees from Black Isle for a short time is hype for you? In which world do you live? The only role-playing company which can produce real hype is BioWare, but even their show is limited to what gigants like EA can do.

I think you need to step back a bit and learn the definition of hype, because quite clearly you seem to be using a wrong one. If you didn't see the explanation posted in the beginning stages of this thread, hype is categorized as any form of publicity which is made in an extravagant way, more akin to deception than actual advertisement. Whatever kind of "fanworld" i live in, its certainly not as narrow as the world you live in, which has you believe hype is only generated by big time companies.

And yes, i believe that "hiring two second-class ex-employees from Black Isle for a short time" generates hype, wheter intentionally or not. You'd have to be pretty thick not to see what hiring two former devs that worked in a recognized franchise does in terms of hype. Of course, that wasn't the only thing that generated.

Face it, there is no hype about "The Fall" and there will never be any hype. The company is too small, the publishers will be too small and target audience is much too small. SSE is nearly a indie devloper, if you compare the team size and budget.

Again, a lack of budget doesn't prevent companies from generating hype; in fact, sometimes because they lack in budget, they hype their products in order to get attention from consumers and publishers.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Hype is hype, no matter the size, Simmschn. I hate to bring out the comparisons but it's like saying murder isn't murder if you kill a baby. To be fair and relevent to the subject of 'hype', it'd be like saying that a bicycle isn't a form of transportation because jumbo jets are a form of transportation.

Hiring two former employees of Black Isle Studios to work on certain role-playing elements of the game was purely a show of hype. It might have only been directed to their target audience (e.g. us) but while the role-playing audience may be very small in comparison to the first person shooter audience, our numbers still run in the millions, or KOTOR and Baldur's Gate 2 wouldn't have sold over a million copies each, and I suspect that it wasn't the entire RPG audience which bought those games, either, of which there are many, many more.

Certainly, SSE intends to sell and henceforth market their game towards their target audience because like fishermen, they have to provide some bait to get the fish to start biting. People aren't just going to buy The Fall simply because it's an RPG and it's on sale. Rather, like any good company, they have to promote their title and persuade their target audience to buy it. One of these methods is to confuse their target audience - by promoting The Fall as the 'spiritual sequel' to the Fallout series. The fact that they hired two former employees of Black Isle Studios, whom were working on Fallout 3 before it was subsequently cancelled, would certainly create a successful result in the development of such confusion.

Prove not yourself an idiot by coming to halt with these naively ignorant claims you make ever so often, and perhaps you will be observed with respect in the future, rather than corrected repeatedly by the likes of yours truly.

As for our (collective) arrogance, I care not that you've decided to try to forcefully conform me, an individual, as a member of some so-called 'minority group'. Due to this very apathy, I believe that I, as an invididual, can afford to be as arrogant as I am because I don't specifically care about RPGs in general. I care about good games. If an RPG is released, all the better - but if it's a lacklustre title that serves as nothing more than a detriment to the genre, not only by dumbing it down but by achieving lacklustre sales and thus reaffirming the general belief that RPG games do not sell very well regardless of quality. The problem with the industry is that most people look at the numbers, and if RPGs seem to sell well, these marketing types don't realize what actually makes these games as profitable as they are. They simply assume that games sell based on their genre rather than individual content; the problem lies therein, especially when dozens of these titles are put into development simply to cash in on the original blockbuster and bomb terribly.

I would think that if it wasn't for a staunch, hard-assed community like the one we have at the Codex, developers would feel free to release horrible lacklustre titles knowing full well that we'll gobble up everything they have to offer. That's not happening today, and I can only hope that it is with this 'arrogance' of ours that we will finally convince developers to put some actual stock into their games.

You'll notice that the movie industry wouldn't have as many powerful movies these days if it wasn't for the film critics. Certainly, there's a lot of horrible American Pie-esque movies out there, but none of them are as terribly successful as the originals. I also suspect that if it wasn't for the fans and the critics' very 'arrogant' attitude towards the original Spiderman movie, Spiderman 2 (which I have yet to see) would not be as good as it is.

Arrogance is what's keeping the music industry (the good, independent part of it) alive. If it wasn't for arrogance we'd still be listening to bubblegum pop from the 60s or plastic pop from the 80s. We'd be hearing Britney Spears and N'Sync on every single fucking radio station. Thanks to this arrogance, I have stations like Digitally Imported to listen to. It definitely carves a good niche.

 

[simmschn]

VaultDweller:

Really? I offered you twice to show me good sides of The Fall. You ignored, which sorta lead me to believe that you have no idea why The Fall is a good game, but just like to believe that it is.

I am not here to make promotion. If you are interested in "The fall", you can visit their site. The game is not published right now, YOU cannot know if the game will be good or bad.

Of course, it's a hype, you nearsighted fool. Do you think that they could have contributed anything? No. They were there for one reason only: to draw attention.

Oh, come on! Get out of your vault! There is no one but you and fifty others on some so called fansites, interested what these ex-employees do. It's not like Tim Cain or MCA have been employed by Silver Style! You are probably one of those guys who would freak out if SSE would hire the Black Isle janitor.

And that is exactly why all these talks about the Fallout/JA licenses, all these ex-BIS developers working for SS, etc are nothing but hype. Although to give Carsten his credit, it did work out.

What did work out? Go, ask your neighbor, if he knows SSE and "The Fall". Perhaps the only thing that worked was that now someone like you knows of "The Fall". Great, what an achievement Silver Style! Now, the game has to be a success!

Not with this attitude, you won't.

You moron! My attitude is a direct response to the unbelievable arrogance expressed on this site. Normally, I am a nice guy.

 

[simmschn]

A really good and intelligent comment, Exitium. Perhaps there is still some hope for RPGCodex? But I don't agree on every point you made. I will try to write a serious and good answer in a few hours.

 

[Sol Invictus]

You can't be serious?! The casual gamers are not interested, which developer made a game, they don't know the name "Bioware". But they know "Star Wars" and there has never been a title in this franchise which really flopped in a big way. That's why we get this constant stream of miserable StarWars games.

Wrong again. Most of my friends consist of 'casual gamers' meaning to say that they don't place too much priority on playing games compared to watching football or drinking beer but most, if not all of them know what brands to look out for and what brands to avoid. Bioware happens to be one of those brands that actually sells a game because of the sheer good quality of their titles (Baldur's Gate comes to mind).

These guys might not know the most indepth happenings with the game industry (e.g. some of them still think Interplay is alive, but dying) or what the best weapon in Baldur's Gate II for a Dwarf Fighter is, but they generally have a pretty good idea about which developers make the good games, and Bioware happens to be one of them. They also know what to expect from Troika - good roleplaying, especially if they enjoyed Arcanum.

Labels don't go ignored. It's the same reason why brands like Toyota and Honda are a lot more desireable than Datsun. Just because they're all Japanese cars doesn't mean that customers don't take the trouble to find out which brands produce the better cars, even if they aren't hardcore car enthusiasts.

You should realize that the majority of casual gamers dont consist of old grandmothers who pick up the cheapest valusoft title that's closest to the counter. Those grannies would be the minority, but they probably consist of the majority of Valusoft's customers. Chances are, they don't even know the difference between Star Wars and Star Trek. They'd probably just buy "Redneck Rampage" for their grandkids because the box looked kinda cute with all the piggies on it.

Obsidian: Small developer, which makes a clone as their first game. I told you already why, they had no other chance. They are far away from having the freedom to develop anything like "The Fall".

Once again, you're wrong. I'd say it was a great opportunity for Obsidian to work on KOTOR II as their first title. You'd have to be a complete idiot to turn down the chance to develop the actual sequel to a best-selling title rather than a nameless clone. You're also wrong on another count when you stated that they are 'very far away from having the freedom to develop', because as I know it (and you don't), they're currently in development of a second, but original title of their own. If you'll perhaps check up on your comprehension skills and read the interview we had with their KOTOR II senior programmer, you'll note that he's currently hard at work at Obsidian's second, but first original RPG title which isn't too long from being officially announced.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I am not here to make promotion.

I am not asking for a promotion, I'm merely asking you to present your point of view. Granted, the game is still in development, but surely there is something that attracted you to Fall.

There is no one but you and fifty others on some so called fansites, interested what these ex-employees do.

Are you really that stupid?

What did work out? Go, ask your neighbor, if he knows SSE and "The Fall". Perhaps the only thing that worked was that now someone like you knows of "The Fall".

Someone like me doesn't give a fuck about Fall. Someone more gullible is now thinking that Fall(out) is a spiritual successor to the FO3.

Great, what an achievement Silver Style! Now, the game has to be a success!

As long as people will buy it...

You moron! My attitude is a direct response to the unbelievable arrogance expressed on this site. Normally, I am a nice guy.

No, normally you are an idiot. You are just pissed off that we don't like every stupid game in development and since that contradicts your cute little crisis theory, you are defending a game that you know nothing about.

 

[Whipporowill]

So if these so called Fallout Fans are ranking some 50 people, why do you care? It's not like that amount of people could have any sort of impact on a game such as the Fall - which at least must have 200 fanbois?

Leave us to be misdirected in peace. Bitte, por favor, thanks, tack et c

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

You can't be serious?! The casual gamers are not interested, which developer made a game, they don't know the name "Bioware". But they know "Star Wars" and there has never been a title in this franchise which really flopped in a big way. That's why we get this constant stream of miserable StarWars games.

Force Commander did. There was also that 4X game they made which flopped pretty hard, I can't even remember it's name.

Some gamers might not know who BioWare is, but the gaming media sure as hell does, and they're the ones who go forth to get previews and interviews and all sorts of stuff from BioWare in order to spread the word about anything BioWare does. Do you honestly think KotOR would have gotten the coverage it did if say.. Joe's Unknown Software Company, Lmtd. developed it?

That's not the question! I would prefer a rather well made CRPG in a non-fantasy setting than a rather well made one in a fantasy setting. But I belong to minority, I know!

Now you're rewriting the question? See, you're saying we should support SSE because they're not making a fantasy CRPG, not me. My reply is that I'd rather have a good fantasy CRPG than a mediocre one with a different setting. That's not to say I just want fantasy CRPGs or that I prefer them, I like a little new here and there, but the important thing is whether or not it's good - not the setting itself.

That's the point. It's rather silly to make the claim that we should be interested in The Fall because it's post apocalyptic. I'd be more interested in The Fall if Gorasul didn't suck humungous ass.

Westwood's been around longer than Eye of the Beholder. They made those Battletech inspired CRPGs for Interplay, and they also did some ports of some SSI games like Roadwar 2000 and Roadwar Europa.

I know, but it was their first real role-playing game. And it doesn't change the fact: At that time they were small developers who mainly ported games to other systems and made contractional work for others (like SSI). Their innovative games came at a later pint with, Lands of Lore and Dune2/Command & Conquer.

No, Phantasie III was their first, back in 1987. Battletech: The Crescent Hawk's Inception was their second along with Mars Saga, they were out in 1988. They also released Hillsfar, which was out in 1989. Westwood had done CRPGs before EotB.

You can't be serious! Again!!! Why do you think we have only clones and serials??? Why do you think we have less than one orginal new idea in a game per year? Why do you think why we have seen nearly every element of a modern game before in older games? The companies who produce mindless clones are highly successful, much more than the companies who try to produce something orginal. Look to the EA Sport series, the car racing games, the Baldur's Gate series, the Icewind Dale series, the Thief series, the ....

What were the Baldur's Gate games clones of? What was Thief a clone of? Sequels aren't clones, son, they're sequels. A clone is when some company creates a game similar to a game another company has made. For example, Starcraft isn't a clone of Warcraft, it's part of the "craft" series that Blizzard developed. Baldur's Gate 2 isn't a clone of Baldur's Gate, it's the sequel to it.

Case in point, Pirhana Bytes' Gothic.

Don't get me started on our only hope for a perfect role-playing game. Gothic 3 will rock!

Here's the part where I tell you that overall, Gothic sucked. Started off good, but the combat and interface were awful. Once you pick a faction, it becomes a dull and linear crapfest. I quit playing when I got the quest to make that amulet dealie out of the four parts of the animals located all over the world. That's got to be one of the worst ideas for a quest in CRPG history. I don't like walking long stretches for one thing, and I certainly don't like having to roam around until I find a specific animal in an area, and I sure as hell don't want to do all that four times just for one quest.

So what? I admire their staying power. There are countless developers out there which produces many shit games, before they had their first hit. I don't know if "The Fall" will be a bit, but I will stay open-minded.

So what? You're saying making clones is what small developers have to do to keep from bombing. SSE made two clones and both bombed rather handily.

Larian: made a fantastic "Divine Divinity", but "Beyond Divinity" was boring and without any postive values of their first title. Both titles play in an uninteresting fantasy setting.

Meanwhile, SSE has made two games that suck. So, what you're saying is that Larian isn't a better choice because they made one fantastic game and one that sucked, but SSE which has made two suck fests is a better choice because one of those festeringly sucky games wasn't fantasy? Is that right?

Piranha Bytes: Perhaps the best role-playing company, but their "Gothic" series is based in a common fantasy setting.

I didn't like Gothic much, I passed on Gothic 2 because it still had the two things I hated most in Gothic still there - interface and crappy combat. However, at least what they tried to do is better than anything SSE has tried.

Obsidian: Small developer, which makes a clone as their first game. I told you already why, they had no other chance. They are far away from having the freedom to develop anything like "The Fall".

Sequel. KotOR2 is a sequel. That's what that number two means after the KotOR in the game they're developing. Now, if you want to argue that IWD and IWD2 are clones of BG, then I'll grant you that they are. However, the people involved in PS:T are also at Obsidian right now, and PS:T is by far a better game than anything SSE could ever hope to do. Also, Feargus Urquhart, the founder of Obsidian, was one of the key developers of Fallout.

Bioware: The only company here, which really can develop whatever they want. And what did they choose: A common fantasy setting with dragons! Thank you very much!
By the way, it will be a clone of Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights.

Who ever said BioWare was imaginative? Also, how can BioWare clone BioWare games? BioWare is BioWare. As such, they aren't cloning, they're just taking what they've done in their previous titles that they felt worked and reusing them. That's not cloning.

Please don't simplify it to the question: real-time vs. turn-based combat.

No, I said real time with pause sucks for ranged combat. I didn't give a preference to real time or turn based. I merely pointed out that the system they're using never has worked well for ranged combat.

By the way, if it would have been "turn-based" the majority here would cry even louder that "The Fall" wants to be a third Fallout game.

That would depend on how they implimented the turn based system, wouldn't it? There are a lot more ways of implimenting turn based combat than there are with real time with pause. ToEE was turn based, so was Fallout, and both games shared many of the same developers - yet the combat system is completely different in both.

I am a hardcore role-playing gamer. I played nearly every CRPG in the last 12 years and many of the older games. So, I always know which games are produced. But I am not the majority.

Yet you think Gothic is the bestest ever?