What's with you guys and The Fall?

[Whipporowill]

Yet you think Gothic is the bestest ever?

Whetever else he's said I'll have to agree with his Gothic arguments, Saint. Loved that game, so did my friends. Hoping for that addon to surface in english any time soon...

Although, I DID quit about in the same place you did in the original. The 2nd was a lot better and didn't get as tired half-way through.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Although, I DID quit about in the same place you did in the original. The 2nd was a lot better and didn't get as tired half-way through.

If it were good, you wouldn't have quit.

 

[Whipporowill]

Well. DivDiv was good as well, until you got that other dimension. Just because the game is good for most parts doesn't mean it's designed well all the way through - I actually don't know why I didn't finish Gothic, I just didn't feel compelled.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I actually don't know why I didn't finish Gothic, I just didn't feel compelled.

You're now 20% of the way to admitting Gothic sucked.

 

[Whipporowill]

No, not really? 20% of it might have been less good - but that's it. I still felt really good about the 2nd although somewhat put off about the latter part of the 1st. So I'd say the 2nd was better than the first - but both were good games. I'm betting (from what I've heard) that the expansion makes G2 even better.

So, that's my take on it. And not that while I enjoyed DivDiv - I have yet to want to pick up BeyDiv - which isn't likely a t m. Luckily a friend of mine bought it, so I'm getting his copy once he's done with it - If I can be bothered by then.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Gothic sucked. There's no skirting around the truth.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Loved that game, so did my friends....Although, I DID quit about in the same place you did

That's pretty funny, Whip, if you think about it. Sounds something like "really awesome game, too bad it sucked so I couldn't play it". Anyway, are things that bad in the RPG universe that you think that a game is good if it got at least 20 minutes worth of decent gameplay somewhere? Come on.

As for Gothic, the first part (the orientation) was very good, the rest (after you pick a faction) sucked.

 

[Whipporowill]

Uh, that was like 20+ hours into the game or something - it's not like I quit because I was bored (rather other games probably got in the way). For once I had a really crappy comp back then, so it wasn't as enjoyable as it could've been.

What I'm saying is. Parts of a game could be great and some less good, without the game being deemed as crap. It seems Pirahna Bytes learned something from that and made G2 the game G1 tried to be, at least for me.

 

[Jed]

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely loved Anachronox, it is the best adventure with elements RPG game I have yet to encounter. But to say that one had a "deep roleplaying experience" with this game can only lead me to believe we're using different definitions of "role playing." Most of us here believe it to be the creating and acting out of a role, not reading a novel.

 

[Volourn]

OMG Are people posing stuff thata ctually resemble positively directed at BIO. WOWSERS! I don't have to say much except the following:

1. The RPG genre isn't dying. Not even close. like always, most games aren't that good; and some are gems. Just the way it works.

2. The Fall *is* a FO clone. it might end up being a good clone; but it *is* a clone.

3. Like Saint said, KOTOR's success wasn't just ebcause of the SW brand. Afterall, many SW games crash and burn.

4. DA will most liekly have lots in common with BIO's previous games as well it should. Why should BIO change things when their forumla is obviously working. Afterall, even thir bashers tend to buy their games anyways no matter how much they 'suck".

5. Did someone forget Jade Empire? That surely isn't a baltant copy of other BIo games.

6. Not to mention the pre IE games that BIo developed. Theyw ere vastly different than their more recent titles. Weird.

7. Have fun.

 

[Ausir]

Some gamers might not know who BioWare is, but the gaming media sure as hell does, and they're the ones who go forth to get previews and interviews and all sorts of stuff from BioWare in order to spread the word about anything BioWare does. Do you honestly think KotOR would have gotten the coverage it did if say.. Joe's Unknown Software Company, Lmtd. developed it?

Exactly. Look at The Witcher, for example. How much coverage in big gaming media outside Poland did you see when they still used their own engine, and how much do you see now, when they use the updated Aurora?

 

[mr. lamat]

Obsidian: Small developer, which makes a clone as their first game. I told you already why, they had no other chance. They are far away from having the freedom to develop anything like "The Fall".

sith lords is a sequal. sith lords rained green into the coffers for future projects like these cats are pissing on your parade. also, having talent gives you the freedom to try new things, and obsidian is one of the most stacked houses, on a programming level, in the business.

 

[Volourn]

Yeah, because their success in helping drive Interplay/BIS into the shithole speaks volumes about that. Hahaha.

 

[Jed]

I think the observant answer here is that Iply drove BIS into the shithole.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Volourn, I think that was really fucking unfair. I hope you were being sarcastic when you said that because BIS and its members were in absolutely no way responsible for what went down with Interplay, nor did their actions have anything to do with Herve Caen's retarded self-driven decisions.

If Herve hadn't cancelled Jefferson in order to redirect resources towards the development of FOBOS, we probably wouldn't be talking about Herve the way we do these days, nor would we even be talking about any such 'demise' of Interplay because there wouldn't even be one. We'd all likely be playing Baldur's Gate: The Black Hound at the moment and criticizing it accordingly instead - and would likely be actually looking forward to Fallout 3 with Avellone at the helm rather than discussing the tragedy that would have happened had FO3 been released under the supervision of absolutely no one in particular, save IPLY Marketing. Or rather, damn them.

 

[Vault Dweller]

As much as I enjoy arguing with Volourn, I'll have to side with him on that BIS/Iply thing. I refreshed my memory at MobyGames:
http://www.mobygames.com/browse/games/k ... 101/j,771/

Games developed by BIS:

* Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance
* Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance II
* Fallout
* Fallout 2
* Fallout Radioactive
* Gamefest: Forgotten Realms Classics
* Icewind Dale
* Icewind Dale II
* Icewind Dale II (Collector's Edition)
* Icewind Dale II: Adventure Pack
* Icewind Dale: Die Saga
* Icewind Dale: Heart of Winter
* Icewind Dale: The Collection
* Icewind Dale: The Ultimate Collection
* Planescape: Torment
* Ultimate Might and Magic Archives

Looks like they really milked that IWD thing, eh? Anyway, throw in Torn and Lionheart, remove Fallout and you get a picture. Doesn't look like a winner to me.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Yes, having Fallout 2 and PS: Torment on one's company resume definitely make one a complete and utter fuckup.

 

[Sol Invictus]

To elucidate:
*There were only 3 Icewind Dale games. IWD, IWD: HOW, and IWD2.
*BGDA was not developed by BIS.
*BGDA2 was developed by a shell of BIS - consisting of Dave Maldonado and several janitors.
*Ultimate M&M Archive was not developed by BIS - merely labelled as such for marketing purposes.
*The same goes for Gamefest: Forgotten Realms Classics
*Fallout Radioactive is a double/triple-pack consisting of FO, FO2 and possibly FOT.

What the 'real' BIS developed:
Fallout 2, PS: Torment, Icewind Dale, Icewind Dale HOW, Icewind Dale II

Oh yeah, looks like a loser to me. Everyone knows that PS: Torment was the worst game of all time. It was so full of words. Who needs them?! Dungeon Siege all the way, baby.

 

[mr. lamat]

the roster at obsidian, in regards to programming, is top-notch talent. they got a large contract and hired accordingly, not dredging the depths of the indian market for cast-offs.

does that translate into great games, or personalities you like? no, it does not, but when it comes to tight coding they've got a great team to count on. have they stepped out and built a new engine? no, they did the smart thing and took a contract to work on an established franchise with a well tested engine.

those are smart decisions, maybe not ones you agree with due to subject taste, but that's not relevant to the point made.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Oh, but Obsidian completely sucks for the sole reason that they developed 60 IWD games! They really milked that franchise, they did. I swear by MobyGames they did! Oh, and they were the developers of Fallout 2! The sheer audacity of them! The taint of their foul programming corrupts the very core of my Post Apocalyptic Role Playing Game! But who could forget Planescape Torment, it's only the worst game of all time. RPGs don't need words, damn it - they need ECKSHUN!

 

[Vault Dweller]

Yes, having Fallout 2 and PS: Torment on one's company resume definitely make one a complete and utter fuckup.

No, of course not. However, FO2 was a sequel to a pre-BIS game using a pre-BIS engine, was buggy, and demonstrated lack of understanding the original game by the newly created BIS. PST was great, but ruined by poor marketing and used Bio's engine. Then there was Torn and sad but predictable history of milking IE till the last drop.

 

[mr. lamat]

also, lionheart was subcontracted to a new and unproven development house. who knows where that order came from. i don't and neither do you. word for who you hire comes from the top down and so do the resources availiable to hire them.

you're looking at a total of six games developed, with re-releases and add-on packs making up the rest. did they milk a franchise? yup, they did. why? don't know... possibly it's due to laziness and banking on small profits from something proven. maybe a lack of capital given up by the publisher to make something entirely new?

ask around, output is rarely representative of ability in this business. your own argument would agree with that point.

i seem to remember a loud crack of thunder at the beginning of fallout. that team went on to form blackisle, so i don't see how they could be considered pre-BIS... they simply did not use the name when they sat down on day one. you're also assuming the decisions and choices made were of their own accord. that's really not how things work. at the time, i'm guessing they were probably told to work on a set of projects, and to make as much money from an engine they'd laid out a good chunk of cash for... inertplay still owes bioware money, remember. i'm guessing they took the orders and tried to hype them as their own choice, using what credibility they had established with a string of quality releases.

but that's just conjecture.

 

[Volourn]

Did I say they made only bad games? Nonsense. They made FO1 (stop your whining!), FO2, PST, and IWD1. However, let's look at the string of the games they didn't either didn't finish r screwed the pooch..

Torn - Horrible engine. So horrible the game was canceled and this was before all the shit went down.

IWD2 - crap. Crap. Crap. And, whose idea was it? Feargus'. And, who was he? The President of BIS. And, thed evs didn't deliver. That wans't Interplay's fault. Period.

FO3/BG3 - Weren't released. true, this had more to dow ith Inetrplay's screw ups than BIS; but still that's years where they made zero dollars for the company and no one on BIS was able to convicne Interplay in the error of their ways.

Remember, Is aid they helped put Interplay into the shithole. Never did I say they were the main cause or even a huge cause; but they surely didn't help.

Interplay's biggest successes in the last 10 years are BIO games, IIRC. So much so; that BIS used BIo's engione and wer eeven gonna steal BG3 just to make money off the name of BIO's work.

I have nothing against Obsidian. in fact, I like Obsidian. And, have enjoyed their games; but to say they were completely free of blame in the fall of Interplay is to be ull of bullshit. Obsidian's former BIS devs have lots to be proud of; but a lot of things they can improve.

We shall see.

No need to get your panties in a bunch and cry bloody murder when someone states hard coded facts.

 

[Vault Dweller]

To elucidate <snip>

My point was that when a company released more bundles then actual games that doesn't reflect well on it.

As for your PST point, yes, it was a great game, one of the best, so? It was in 1999. Next 4 years - IWD games of all shapes and sizes.

no, they did the smart thing and took a contract to work on an established franchise with a well tested engine.

Last time they did "the smart thing" it didn't really work out for them, did it?

 

[mr. lamat]

you ever think they used feargus to front for orders on what was going to get paid for and released? the dood had cred. it's all inter-department politics we're not in the least privvy to. all that's for certain is they were around when alot of bad shit went down. you can't really assign responsibility.

the relationship between blackisle/inertplay is much different than that of obsidian/lucasarts. one was an inhouse studio of a large publisher, the other is a freelance studio and a production company of an ever mutating piece of shit sem-sci-fi fantasy (that only gets tacit support from me for some badass jedi-fu and cool laser guns).