What is it about BioWare...

[Volourn]

Sleeper, or not; it remains a fact that FO didn't have the impact on the crpg genre. Seriously, no ohter game is like it in sheer options in completing quests - not even Arcanum which is made by Troika. Go figure.

Links? I don't have to provide links. This is obvious to anyone who pays attention. Then again, if you want a link, look at SP's news bit in the news ection. In it, Mr. Cain is whining about how games like PST, and NWN don't follow the dnd rules to the letter; than he gloats about how exact his take on the rules are yet forgets the fact that as tight as TOEE is in regards to rules implemenation (I think it'll be the best dnd implemtnation rules wise); it isn't exact. He tries to imply that it is. He fails in that attempt to anyone in the know. It reeks of Pot Kettle Black. Like I said, overhyping your prodcut is apr for the course in any industry. It's up to the consumer tos ee through the hype.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Sleeper, or not; it remains a fact that FO didn't have the impact on the crpg genre.

I'll repeat myself as obviously you didn't hear me the first time. Fallout demonstrated that there is a demand for hardcore RPGs. If that's not an impact, I don't know what is.

Links? I don't have to provide links.

You don't have to, but that what people do if they expect to be taken seriously.

In it, Mr. Cain is whining about how games like PST, and NWN don't follow the dnd rules to the letter; than he gloats about how exact his take on the rules are yet forgets the fact that as tight as TOEE is in regards to rules implemenation (I think it'll be the best dnd implemtnation rules wise); it isn't exact. He tries to imply that it is. He fails in that attempt to anyone in the know.

First, I don't remember the exact words, so it would be nice to have that link, before somebody starts speculating. Second, TOEE seems to be much closer to dnd then IE and NWN. Third, it's pointless to argue about such a precise matter till we actually played the game.

 

[Volourn]

I never denied it seems to be much closer to dnd than IE and NWN. In fatc, I have said repeatedly, I beleive it well which is why I look forward to it (definitely not the hack story it's copying). What I said was that he complained about PST, and NWN not having an exact rules implentation when we all know full well neither will TOEE. Therefore, it's moot.

I told you the link. The link is on this very site in the new section. However, I'll be nice and link it (just this once): http://www.etoychest.org/interviews/interview_009.html

There's a demand for hardcore RPGs? Really? Then where are they? Where are the FO wannabes? Seriously, as good as FO is; it didn't really change the dynamic of crpgs all that much. It was successful enough to spawn one sequel, and possibly a second along with other side games. Really, that isn't the first game to do so. Sure, it has an audience; however its audience is built on people like us who pretty much buy eveyr rpg that comes along - hence the reason why people continually buy BIO games depsite continually bashing them. That's what we hardcore gamers do, and that's games tend not to be made for us; because they know we'll buy it anyways.

P.S. Being taken seriously isn't my goal.

 

[Voss]

Mind you, since none of the supposed 3e games actually managed to accurately do 3e rules, a closer adherence to the actual rules isn't hard.

And, wow, Volourn, you've read in an amazing amount of info that isn't in any of his statements.

The link is here:
http://www.etoychest.org/interviews/interview_009.html

you might want to read it again. "Most faithful" doesn't come close to "exact"
and the "whining" deals with not changing the turned based PnP rules to real-time.

thats an oddly written (why have questions that make the interviewer look like an ass?) piece of marketing, but I wouldn't call it hype.
Theres a big difference between the two.

 

[Sabotai]

God,
what a bunch of elitist pricks!

Hi elzod, do you by any chance have a brother at the IGN boards named fizog? Your names have a similar ring.

If game companies delivered the type of games everyone in this thread is clamoring for then the CRPG genre would be dead.

And what kind of game would that be? I wonder if you've read all posts in this thread, because we like all kind of games. I think Astromarine put it very eloquently in this post, so I quote:

The point that Montecarlo and, well, you seem to miss is that RPGCodex members are NOT, repeat NOT against combat. Most here like Avernum, which is pretty much a hack-n-slash game. Most respect Diablo, worship X-Com, enjoyed JA-2, dug the Wizardries, etc.

It's easy, when a site like this is (rightfully) proud to be selective to the point of being considered elitist, to misunderstand it's points. the Codex hive mind does NOT think all RPGs should be a fantastically-woven story with little combat like Torment, and it is not against combat. Pretty much the only requirements for an RPG to pass the Codex hivemind test are

1) Good design. This is the only REAL must. A game cannot be half-assed in any of it's parts. A game should grip you in the beginning and only let go after several complete runs throught it. None of the components should be there only as marketing gimmicks

2) Non-linearity. This is not as important as the first one, but it's still a Good Thing. People can enjoy relatively linear games if they have a good design, but they will only remember fondly and tell their grandchildren about the non-linear masterpieces like Fallout.

That's it. All other perceived prejudices are perceived wrong. As I said, some people here enjoy action RPGs like Diablo or hacknslash fests like Avernum. Their issue with BG or NWN is NOT the existence of combat, it's the IMPLEMENTATION of it. The Inbred Engine, they call the things. The bastardization of a good, well-tested combat system like D&D to become a RTWP lame hybrid. The incredibly boring non-interactivity of NWN and Dungeon Siege. The stupid, stupid, stupid NWN campaign. The emphasis on 3D graphics and particle 3PH3KT0RZ of titles like NWN, FOOS and the like. The introduction of skills and half-assed "choices" of Deus Ex which are there simply to allow an RPG categorization. The endless marketing spiel trying to pull woll over our eyes...

Troika does none of that. Sure, they only made Arcanum and Fallout. One is a pure freaking masterpiece, and the other is a VERY nice game with some failings. The point is that AFAIK Troika has *admitted* those failings and is being level with us with TOEE. We know it's going to be a combat-heavy game. We know it's gonna take place mostly in dungeons. Who cares? We know the designers are "real" enough and care about their games enough (unlike Bioware and co) to learn from mistakes and one-up themselves in the next one. We know we are being told upfront what the game is, instead of being buried in hype. And for this, we are grateful and hopeful.

As for Vampire, yeah, it will require more of a leap of faith. Still, it will come out after ToEE. By the time it ships, we will have much more info about it than now, and will have 3 instead of 2 games to judge Troika by. If they continue their track-record of openness about their games it's perfectly possible we will enjoy it, even if it's 60% FPS and only 40% RPG. Because we will *know it in advance*.

Astro

If you want to read it more in context, it's on page 6 of this thread.

No one but the die-hard would buy these games.

I think ToEE (supposedly, as it's not out yet) encompasses most qualities people at RPGCodex are looking for in a game. Is it for die hards only then? I do not think so.

If it wasn't for the so-called linear, combat-driven CRPG's and their clones you wouldn't have the luxury of hoping that the next CRPG that comes out will be different, original, and what you've been waiting for.

I'm not really sure what you are trying to say here. As I understand it you state that these linear, combat driven CRPGs have given me the luxury to hope that one day, somewhere in the future a game I've been waiting for might come out. That's not a lot don't you think? Well, at least hope was the only positive thing that came out of Pandora's box, so I should be grateful.

 

[Walks with the Snails]

Wow, it's really been raining angry newbies lately.

 

[DrattedTin]

Volourn,

I usually wouldn't jump in like this but I think your statement re: the interview was completely unfair.

I can understand how you'd get your opinion. The general opinion around here (especially coming from Saint) might make Cain look like a conniving genius who likes to insult Bioware underhandedly. Looking at the interview objectively, though, he just defended his game.

 

[Volourn]

True, the inetrviewer was mostd efinitely a jerk the way he eld the questions, and I have no mercy for him. However, you can defend your game without attacking othe rgames. Heck, when BIO does that even in a remote/uninsulting way they get leeched. When Mr. Cain doe sit; he's treated liek the god he isn't. But, yeah, the interview is a pun whod eserves to get punked out.

 

[DrattedTin]

I don't treat him like a god, I treat him like a developer worthy of my respect.

He did not say, "Temple of Elemental Evil does everything right, unlike those stupid Bioware games", he simply pointed out that they changed the system in a way that wasn't strictly neccessary. Pointing out a fact is not insulting something.

 

[Volourn]

True; but calling it a "half breed self created rule set" is an insult when the games in question are based off a dnd.. Anyways, in the end, they are all half breeds. Think of it as bio/bis/troika house rules, and that'll solve al the problems.

 

[Araanor]

Now, now... we are talking about combat, and IE/NWN combat IS half-breed.

TOEE combat, by all signs, is not.

 

[Azael]

True; but calling it a "half breed self created rule set" is an insult when the games in question are based off a dnd.. Anyways, in the end, they are all half breeds. Think of it as bio/bis/troika house rules, and that'll solve al the problems.

What exactly is a house rule, if not a "half breed self created rule set"?

 

[Ibbz]

Give yourself full marks if you picked the third option for your Marketing 101 exam. Picking the second option scores you points for a while, until people realise you're a fucker.

Actually, the best option would have been to ask what the consumer wanted in the first place, rather than just to make a product and expect people to buy it.

At least, thats what they try to teach us in marketing

 

[Jed]

"The world is flat. The world is flat. The world is flat." Doesn't necessarily make it true. No one has convinced me yet that the icons simply indicate choices for morons in Lionheart.

Your analogy would be more apt if it were, "The world is round, the world is round."

P.S. Being taken seriously isn't my goal.

You have truly succeeded at this among the 'Codexers.

 

[Volourn]

I've succeeded at that EVERYWHERE. You ain't that special. :shock:

 

[Jed]

I've succeeded at that EVERYWHERE. You ain't that special. :shock:

Wha...?

 

[Volourn]

Huh? I thought the statement was pretty clear. What's confusing about it?

Add: Thi is getting silly now. :D

 

[Pika-Cthulhu]

Cheers for the Necro, I get to read vintage Volly now.

 

[IronicNeurotic]

Cheers for the Necro, I get to read vintage Volly now.

Volly declined in his opinions less than the entire codex has.

 

[Konjad]

I've read two pages of this thread until I realized it's pretty old.

 

[Konjad]

Thanks for calling me back with an emoticon over 10 years later.

 

[c u in da ballpit ashren]

Sleeper, or not; it remains a fact that FO didn't have the impact on the crpg genre. Seriously, no ohter game is like it in sheer options in completing quests - not even Arcanum which is made by Troika. Go figure.

Links? I don't have to provide links. This is obvious to anyone who pays attention. Then again, if you want a link, look at SP's news bit in the news ection. In it, Mr. Cain is whining about how games like PST, and NWN don't follow the dnd rules to the letter; than he gloats about how exact his take on the rules are yet forgets the fact that as tight as TOEE is in regards to rules implemenation (I think it'll be the best dnd implemtnation rules wise); it isn't exact. He tries to imply that it is. He fails in that attempt to anyone in the know. It reeks of Pot Kettle Black. Like I said, overhyping your prodcut is apr for the course in any industry. It's up to the consumer tos ee through the hype.

Always remember that your contrarianism can be proven wrong by time itself. What "didn't impact the CRPG genre" in 2003 ended up spawning sequels that for better or worse, stood the test of time. Fallout ended up appealing to normans enough to have hype surrounding Nuka-Cola being sold by Target of all places. And what became of Arcanum...? Well, it's just as buggy and unfinished without mods now, as it was then, in 2003. No sequels. At best, a dedicated modding fanbase that is even then still split into two depending on what overhaul mod you're using to play the game. Posts like these make me wonder what I'll be thinking a decade or two from now, when I see my X-COM profile picture, next to my old posts, some shitposting, some talking about the threads I'm in, and others about the game I'm making. This is the quality forum RPGCodex™ Experience™

 

[Lacrymas]

This thread aged well.

 

[Volourn]

" Fallout ended up appealing to normans enough to have hype surrounding Nuka-Cola being sold by Target of all places. "

Bethesda's Fallout has had high impact. I have to slightly fix my thoguhts. L0L

 

[fantadomat]

No sequels.

well......actually......have you played troika newest game,outer worlds?

 

[Larianshill]

That said, KotOR isn't turning out to be a good game, judging from the previews (omg lightsaber colorz!!11 and crystals. Like diablo 2. sigh), so I'm not looking forward to it too much.

Ohohoho.

 

[grimer]

Fallout demonstrated that there is a demand for hardcore RPGs

lol shoot eyes win game. "hardcore" indeed