Unofficial Oblivion preview!!! Must see to believe!

[Vault Dweller]

I'm not coming up with an answer because I'm not willing to go out on a limb with Oblivion by stating whether it will suck or whether it will be teh best

I've neither stated that Oblivion will suck nor asked your opinion on that. What I did ask you was what to comment on what important info still hasn't been revealed.

However I am willing to clearly point out that none of the serious issues have been addressed in detail which is worrisome. See the difference? We're almost on the same page but you're just willing to take that extra step.

Ok, you call that worrisome. Why? Because you have expected to see more info by now. You've heard everything there is to know about forests and the AI thing, and about how awesome the graphics are, etc. Yet nothing about the important, in an RPG, stuff. There is a simple and logical answer to that one.

As long as you stick to only using short bladed weapons. Would that really kill your role-playing? I appreciate your attention to detail though.

By that logic, we don't need stats at all, just do whatever your character would have done in your opinion and that's pretty much it.

I see your point. However it's a little different with guilds though. Restricting myself to using only short weapons would have a much lesser effect on my role-playing than restricting myself to only one guild.

Here is an example. You have a decent dagger, you explore and find a great katana that's 10 times as good as your dagger. If your long blade skill is low, the blade is useless to you. If you can use both equally well, odds are you will pick the katana.

... it's still silly to have an athletic character who can't climb. Or an athelically challenged character who is an excellent climber. See the downfalls of having too many skills? Either way you go, you can't have your cake and eat it too...there's got to be some sacrifices.

I see that others have already pointed to you that being good at one athletic ability doesn't imply being good at another. Athletic is as general as one Weapon skill.

Also consider the other side. A completely unathletic character who is a superb climber

By completely unathletic you mean not a good runner, not a good swimmer, etc? Doesn't sound unrealistic to me.

 

[MrSmileyFaceDude]

There is a simple and logical answer to that one.

Just remember, it's a logical fallacy to assume something is false in the absence of information confirming it. "Lack of proof is not proof." argumentum ad ignorantiam, if you want to look it up.

The reason I mention this is because I've seen numerous times on this board posts along the lines of "well, they haven't talked about X, so it must not be in the game," not specifically to target you VD.

 

[Drakron]

You sould work for the Bush administration ...

With that argument you can prove Saddan Al-Queda connection and Saddan WMDs.

 

[MrSmileyFaceDude]

You have GOT to be kidding me. Since when does LOGIC have anything to do with politics?

Besides, I voted for the other guy.

 

[corvax]

I've neither stated that Oblivion will suck nor asked your opinion on that. What I did ask you was what to comment on what important info still hasn't been revealed.

The dialogue system - fully not snippets. The quest design, whether characters will recognize your status in various guilds and in the environment in general, what happens if you join more that one guild, whether your actions will have more than just superficial consequences? None of those things have been addressed in detail.

Ok, you call that worrisome. Why? Because you have expected to see more info by now. You've heard everything there is to know about forests and the AI thing, and about how awesome the graphics are, etc. Yet nothing about the important, in an RPG, stuff. There is a simple and logical answer to that one.

See MSFD's post.

By that logic, we don't need stats at all, just do whatever your character would have done in your opinion and that's pretty much it.

Don't go all slippery slope on me here. By that logic we don't need as much stats.

Here is an example. You have a decent dagger, you explore and find a great katana that's 10 times as good as your dagger. If your long blade skill is low, the blade is useless to you. If you can use both equally well, odds are you will pick the katana.

Not if you role-play.

By completely unathletic you mean not a good runner, not a good swimmer, etc? Doesn't sound unrealistic to me.

I mean an obese, uncoordinated, no endurance/stamina, two left feet type of person who is a superb climber. Your detailed skill system would allow for that. If it still doesn't sound unrealistic to you then you indeed have a great imagination.

 

[corvax]

With that argument you can prove Saddan Al-Queda connection and Saddan WMDs.

Actually no. You could prove the fallacy in Bush's reasoning.

"The argument to ignorance is a logical fallacy of irrelevance occurring when one claims that something is true only because it hasn't been proved false, or that something is false only because it has not been proved true."

A fallacy is not something you want to have in any argument.

 

[Human Shield]

Some people like real games with logically consistent worlds and rational responses.

Others like fu-fu gumdrop worlds were they can do anything. I can be the leader of the criminals and the police! I can fly through space but you can roleplay as walking around if you want.

I don't think they would mind if you find a lightsaber in Oblivion because "you don't have to pick it up". Maybe the next Star Wars book has a chapter where they meet Drizz the Dark Elf, but "you don't have to read it".

 

[Atrokkus]

Most of what we are talking here about are pure rumors and assumptions.

We still haven't seen teh evidence of that the crappy or nonexistant (like in Morr) dialogs. Until we see direct evidence of it, everything we are talking is bullshit.

But concerning other aspects like combat - well here we sure can see a bigger picture and thus can judge it.

It's the same as most people bury Fallout3 before even seeing the screenshots or initial feature list!
BS-talk.

 

[Human Shield]

True but being athletic predisposes you to suceed in every single sport (oh and bowling, nascar, darts aren't sports) Also consider the other side.

Being "athletic" would involve high Dex, Con, and Str. Being skilled in something is different.

A completely unathletic character who is a superb climber. That's not odd?

You factor attributes into rolls so a person with a str and dex of 1 (maybe negative modifiers) would have trouble climbing, but he would be skilled enough to coach someone into knowing how to climb and using equipment properly. What do you call a professional mountain climber that becomes paralysed from the neck down?

 

[Sarvis]

Here is an example. You have a decent dagger, you explore and find a great katana that's 10 times as good as your dagger. If your long blade skill is low, the blade is useless to you. If you can use both equally well, odds are you will pick the katana.

Not if you role-play.

You must usually roleplay an idiot. I mean a true retard. Someone dumber than Pres. Bush. Any REALISTIC personality would want the advantage gained with the katana, especially in life or death situations like fighting.

Turning down a Katana 10 times more powerful would be like turning down a job offer as a CEO where even if you do a shit job you get a severance package worth millions.

I mean an obese, uncoordinated, no endurance/stamina, two left feet type of person who is a superb climber. Your detailed skill system would allow for that. If it still doesn't sound unrealistic to you then you indeed have a great imagination.

But now you are talking about stats, not skills. A proper skill system, which seems non-existant so far, would make a person with master skill points in climbing but low con, dex and str person still suck at climbing.

Doesn't mean he wouldn't be familiar with all the necessary techniques though and might make a great teacher for it. His low physical stats would keep him from doing it himself though.

 

[Drakron]

Funny thing is that was made with actual quotes, I dont think anyone thinks that dialogue is just one actor doing the entire lines because your press releases decided to just focus on a relative well know actor (and that was pretty stupid if you ask me, celebrity voices have the tendacy of being pretty bad).

Problem is that we hear nothing so we assume nothing was changed, saying "you are going to LOVE <insert feature here>" means nothing, some people like to drink pee ...

How can we get interested on a game that so far disclosed aspects of gameplay we do not like, its natural to assume the rest of the changes will also be something we disagree and not something we will aprove.

So far there was nothing for me to want to pick up this game, in fact every time I see a feature being disclosed is something I do not like or agree.

I think that Morrowind was a step back in relation to Daggerfall and I see Oblivion being a even greater step back ... also I used to like the Elder Scrolls lore but when I see someone saying that Oblivion is the Tarmiel equivelent of Hell ... well thats news for me since acording to all the lore I read Oblivion is were the Daedra live and the Daedra are not demons, just incredible powerful imortal creature.

There is nothing I like on Oblivion that was reported so far, NOTHING.

 

[MrSmileyFaceDude]

There is nothing I like on Oblivion that was reported so far, NOTHING.

Crap, 3 years of development wasted.

 

[corvax]

You must usually roleplay an idiot. I mean a true retard. Someone dumber than Pres. Bush. Any REALISTIC personality would want the advantage gained with the katana, especially in life or death situations like fighting.

And this is coming from Mr. If I can't do it in real life it's not role-playing? Any realistic personality that wants to stay IN CHARACTER would stick to a given character even if it means gimping it. Is temptation is too strong for you munchkin? Too much D&D I guess.

But now you are talking about stats, not skills.

Stats reflect skills ya dummy.

 

[corvax]

True but being athletic predisposes you to suceed in every single sport (oh and bowling, nascar, darts aren't sports) Also consider the other side.

Being "athletic" would involve high Dex, Con, and Str. Being skilled in something is different.

That's only part of the story. Being athletic or having higher dex, con, str should indeed reflect in related skills such as Athletics (running, climbing, walking, jogging, swimming). To what degree? That's debatable. What's not debatable is that a character with weak dex, con, str would never make an excellent swimmer, runner, climber etc.

You factor attributes into rolls so a person with a str and dex of 1 (maybe negative modifiers) would have trouble climbing, but he would be skilled enough to coach someone into knowing how to climb and using equipment properly.

Coaching someone but not climbing ya dummy. Even coaching is questionable as somethings you just HAVE to learn from experience. Humans gain knowledge through intellect and experience...don't pull a fucking Plato on me and say that all you need is an intellect.

What do you call a professional mountain climber that becomes paralysed from the neck down?

A paralysed ex-professional mountain climber ya dummy. Can he climb? No! Is he strong, dexterious, endurarious (that's a new word), Hell no! Is he athletic?

 

[Drakron]

There is nothing I like on Oblivion that was reported so far, NOTHING.

Crap, 3 years of development wasted.

I was not following development, you get a shitload of cash when the Xbox 360 comes out and your overpriced launch title is sold.

Besides so far the pro-Oblivion camp here is saying "oh the good stuff for you guys is the one that was not talked about it yet" to the people that shown they played other Elder Scrolls games and not like the direction Oblivion is going.

So I take it that what was not talked about follows the same principles of what was talked about ... there is no good stuff in Oblivion that we liked in MW and Daggerfall ....

 

[MrSmileyFaceDude]

There's that logical fallacy again...

 

[DarkUnderlord]

There is nothing I like on Oblivion that was reported so far, NOTHING.

Crap, 3 years of development wasted.

Yup. All that time and no horse-back combat?

 

[Drakron]

That is what I take form your comment.

But truth be told I might end up with Oblivion, I got a Morrowind copy when I got my video card.

 

[MrSmileyFaceDude]

There is nothing I like on Oblivion that was reported so far, NOTHING.

Crap, 3 years of development wasted.

Yup. All that time and no horse-back combat?

Yeah, tell me about it.

 

[Naked_Lunch]

Here is an example. You have a decent dagger, you explore and find a great katana that's 10 times as good as your dagger. If your long blade skill is low, the blade is useless to you. If you can use both equally well, odds are you will pick the katana.

Not if you role-play.

You'll be at a severe disadvantage, without a backstab or short blade skill, what use will the dagger be? Don't give me that bullshit roleplaying because there's no skill to even the playing field. If I wanted to roleplay with my imagination, I'd go play with Legos or something.

 

[Sarvis]

And this is coming from Mr. If I can't do it in real life it's not role-playing? Any realistic personality that wants to stay IN CHARACTER would stick to a given character even if it means gimping it. Is temptation is too strong for you munchkin? Too much D&D I guess.

Too much thinking my character would want to survive his next fight more likely. Fuck, if I were DM and you ditched the most powerful Katana in the world for a shitty dagger based on <i>preference</i> the next opponent you faced would be too strong for you to kill with that dagger.

Hell, that's probably why I put that katana there in the first place!

Stats reflect skills ya dummy.

No, stats [should] <b>affect</b> skills.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Just remember, it's a logical fallacy to assume something is false in the absence of information confirming it. "Lack of proof is not proof." argumentum ad ignorantiam, if you want to look it up.

I'm familiar with the concepts, thanks. However, you refer to a general concept, while I'm talking about a specific case that has its own rules managing information release. While I'm sure that there are things you haven't talked about, they are likely to be insignificant in nature.

Well, prove me wrong. Tell us something incredibly awesome about the magic system, and I'll gladly accept that I was wrong. So far, according to kathode, the BIGGEST change is the cast & fight feature.

 

[Vault Dweller]

The dialogue system - fully not snippets.

Once again, DIALOGUE TOPICS. 'nuff said. Really, hussar, you've been around long enough to know what that means. I don't care about little features like can I type my own topic, can I sort topics, can I remove topics, etc. What really matters is DIALOGUE TOPICS. Besides, haven't you seen the screen? You can say a lot by the way it's designed.

The quest design

No such thing. They either suck or they don't. Only one way to find out.

whether characters will recognize your status in various guilds and in the environment in general

Yes. They would say: WHY HALLO THAR, [insert guild rank]!!! If you are looking for more depth, you are wasting your time.

what happens if you join more that one guild

What part of "you can join all the guilds and become a leader of all them" did you fail to understand? Or why such a feature was added? The answer to the latter also answers your question.

whether your actions will have more than just superficial consequences?

You've gotta be kidding me. It's not what Bethesda does or cares to do.

See MSFD's post.

See my reply.

Don't go all slippery slope on me here. By that logic we don't need as much stats.

Same logic. If you can eliminate some skills because you can decide what your character should be able to do, you can eliminate all of them.

Not if you role-play.

lol. I see that this has already been addressed, but I'll throw in another example. Daggerfall: I'm fighting some monsters in a dungeon that has water canals. I fell in the water, my Swimming skill was low and I was wearing a heavy armor so I went straight down (that's how Swimming skill used to work). I had to remove and throw away the armor and the loot before I run out of air, swim up, and finish the fight armorless, barely surviving the encounter. That was a very memorable experience brought to you by detailed skills. You can't role-play it just by pretending that you can't swim very well.

I mean an obese, uncoordinated, no endurance/stamina, two left feet type of person who is a superb climber. Your detailed skill system would allow for that.

Now you are reaching.

 

[Vault Dweller]

We still haven't seen teh evidence of that the crappy or nonexistant (like in Morr) dialogs. Until we see direct evidence of it, everything we are talking is bullshit.

Jesus Fucking Christ, don't you guys pay attention? Dialogue topics have been mentioned in several previews. Then there was that screen. What else do you really need to see?

 

[Psilon]

I don't see why content can't be unpacked to the HD and paged in as required.

Yeah, that's exactly what I want out of an "instant on" console--thrashing a hard drive as the homebrew virtual memory system gets overloaded. Besides, with the texture sizes, audio sampling rates, and polygon counts of today, 64MB doesn't buy you that much of a working set. As a result, you're far more likely to see the same actors repeated in a level rather than throwing in, say, every enemy simultaneously.

In a large map BSP trees are often combined with quadtrees-which means you could page stuff in as required from the HD. Also, space taken by global variables is negligible.

What the hell? There is no connection between quadtrees and paging. You might as well say "current OpenGL implementations tend to use IEEE 754 single-precision real numbers, which means you could page stuff in as required from the HD." Would you prefer I say "trimeshes, visibility structures, collision data, and the whole fucking scenegraph?" Even objects hiding behind walls--and thus culled from the scene before rendering--can still be active in dynamics simulations. This pretty much requires you to keep the collision volumes (convex hulls, bounding boxes, whatever) in memory, and whenever possible in cache. Until Ageia hurries up and gets their PhysX dynamics chip to market, we're pretty much stuck with doing all those computations on the main CPU.

Oh, and there's no correlation between a variable's lexical scope and its size. Gotcha. In fact, I've seen a lot of programs where practically nothing was stored on the stack--everything was in heap-allocated memory accessible through global variables.