Unofficial Oblivion preview!!! Must see to believe!

[Sarvis]

Huh!?!? Vault dweller... <i>agreeing</i> with me?

Hey, someone get Rulion's attention, he needs to see this!

 

[Vault Dweller]

I blame Zufuriin who was obviously sent here to create confusion and chaos.

 

[Zufuriin]

I did not mean to imply that twitch combat was innovation, but rather to not dismiss a game based on its combat system. Limiting oneself to only play games that are similar to Fallout eliminates quite a bit of games, and who knows, maybe a new RPG style will be developed, but due to being so strict in the games' requirements will cause you to miss out on that game.

I don't know if I am jumping to conclusions about your gaming habits, but I am just trying to clear up my opinion on this matter. I have played RPGs that are very skill reliant, and on the other end I have played the so-called twitch games. While you might not enjoy a break from skill- and story-intensive RPGs, I do. Each style of game has their place.

I am looking foward to trying out Oblivion and the gameplay style. I anticipate that it will be very user-oriented as opposed to skill-based, but it may very well be enjoyable, even if it does not live up to your mighty standards of Pure RPGing. Perhaps with the addition of user-made tweaks/mods/plugins, the games could improve exponentially and cater to a wider variety of gamers, such as yourself (though not likely).

 

[Vault Dweller]

Limiting oneself to only play games that are similar to Fallout eliminates quite a bit of games

We don't. We try and play everything that has the RPG sticker on a box. Needles to say, we like and praise only a handful of titles.

I am looking foward to trying out Oblivion and the gameplay style. I anticipate that it will be very user-oriented as opposed to skill-based, but it may very well be enjoyable, even if it does not live up to your mighty standards of Pure RPGing.

Perhaps. We'll keep an open mind and definitely give it a try.

 

[Sarvis]

I did not mean to imply that twitch combat was innovation, but rather to not dismiss a game based on its combat system. Limiting oneself to only play games that are similar to Fallout eliminates quite a bit of games, and who knows, maybe a new RPG style will be developed, but due to being so strict in the games' requirements will cause you to miss out on that game.

I don't know if I am jumping to conclusions about your gaming habits, but I am just trying to clear up my opinion on this matter. I have played RPGs that are very skill reliant, and on the other end I have played the so-called twitch games. While you might not enjoy a break from skill- and story-intensive RPGs, I do. Each style of game has their place.

I am looking foward to trying out Oblivion and the gameplay style. I anticipate that it will be very user-oriented as opposed to skill-based, but it may very well be enjoyable, even if it does not live up to your mighty standards of Pure RPGing. Perhaps with the addition of user-made tweaks/mods/plugins, the games could improve exponentially and cater to a wider variety of gamers, such as yourself (though not likely).

Umm... as I've said many, MANY times my preferences have nothing to do with classification.

I enjoy my fair share of action games. I'm enjoying Jade Empire right now.

I just don't consider games that test my reflexes to be RPGs.

And you definately missed the mark with the Fallout combat. I didn't like Fallout much at all! :shock:

 

[Psilon]

I did not mean to imply that twitch combat was innovation, but rather to not dismiss a game based on its combat system. Limiting oneself to only play games that are similar to Fallout eliminates quite a bit of games, and who knows, maybe a new RPG style will be developed, but due to being so strict in the games' requirements will cause you to miss out on that game.

Not really. We're more of a "once burned, twice shy" kind of group, except for certain masochists who even buy games like Dungeon Lords. Morrowind streamlined, simplified, and refined Daggerfall, and in general was a vastly inferior game. Given that Oblivion seems to be continuing the "more polygons, less gameplay" trend, we're justifiably wary. I bought Morrowind, Icewind Dale, and NWN on launch day. As a result, I passed on KOTOR and IWD2, and won't be buying Oblivion until someone comes up with a good reason why I might enjoy it. Fixing Morrowind exploits through further nerfs isn't it, and--even though he's Captain Picard--neither is voice acting by Patrick Stewart.

I am looking foward to trying out Oblivion and the gameplay style. I anticipate that it will be very user-oriented as opposed to skill-based, but it may very well be enjoyable, even if it does not live up to your mighty standards of Pure RPGing. Perhaps with the addition of user-made tweaks/mods/plugins, the games could improve exponentially and cater to a wider variety of gamers, such as yourself (though not likely).

First, "user-oriented" in terms of a mass-market consumer product almost invariably means "dumbed down." I'm not saying that every game needs to have an Emacs-flashback-inducing level of interface complexity (see: many roguelikes, Starshatter, Falcon 4.0, and the works of Derek Smart), but pursuing the casual gamer usually involves alienating the potential or existing fan base and has frequently destroyed the brand in question. Examples: X-Com, Fallout, (soon to be) Jagged Alliance, Master of Orion, SimCity, King's Quest, Leisure Suit Larry.

Second, relying on mods and plugins to make a game playable is usually another kiss of death. NWN's official campaign was godawful, but it had teh ed1tors (which also suck, BTW) so all was apparently forgiven by many fans. UT2003 had a glaring lack of content compared to UT, even before the bonus packs, and never got the same numbers as UT did. It took UT2004, which in many respects simply finished unfulfilled promises and backported UT Classic into the new engine, to get serious buzz. When you release a substandard product but ship the editors, you're essentially gambling that other people's creativity and patience can make up for your deficits in both. Unfortunately, if no one can use the editors or wants to play the game, this strategy is futile. How many Fallout: Tactics mods were actually completed?

Also, for the love of gaming here, can I please have an RPG sequel other than BG2 and Diablo 2 that actually shows some goddamned ambition?

 

[Fez]

We have the Shit Games Liberation Front, AKA Shagnak, to watch out for any games that might turn out to be not as bad as we thought they were.

 

[Zufuriin]

Vault Dweller: What are some of the more recent RPGs that you approve of? I recall a post stating that the last RPG was Fallout. Where you being serious, or overgeneralizing?

I just don't consider games that test my reflexes to be RPGs.

Ok then, it's not an RPG. BTW, how is Jade Empire? I played the demo, the fighting is actually a breath of fresh air. How is it gameplay-wise? I might give it a rent later on.

And you definately missed the mark with the Fallout combat. I didn't like Fallout much at all!

The Fallout comment was directed more towards Vault Dweller, but if you feel neglected I can focus more on your likes and dislikes, if you would prefer that.

Psilon: I don't blame you for being careful of the next game you buy. Considering the games you purchased and the even less immersive games that are widely available, it's pretty difficult to find a product worth the cash now that games are in the $50-60 dollar range. IWD2 was a complete waste of money, IMO.

About your comments on mods, Morrowind had a pretty active mod community. A majority of the mods I downloaded (300+ on 56k dial-up nonetheless) were actually decent, with a few dozen truly spectacular ones. I made a few mods myself for personal use, which was not too hard after learning the basics. But I agree that in general mods should not have to save the game. There are quite a few games that would be nowhere if it was not for hacks/mods.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Oh c'mon! So all RPGs should have turn based/DnD combat? Where's the innovation? So much for moving foward with technology. Maybe somewhere down the road there will be a game that has both "twitch" combat and incredible RPG elements, and you happen to try it, and just maybe enjoy it.

The question would be how much innovation does it take to move you in to another genre. Really, one of the fundamentals of a CRPG should be how the character build interacts with the world. The player should merely be the guide for that character build. When you keep moving what the build handles over to what the player handles, you're moving further and further away from the genre.

Stripping away fundamentals of the genre for more action focus isn't innovation.

 

[Zufuriin]

True, but what is so bad about moving to a hybrid-genre? Or even a combination of multiple genres, as long as they are not half-assed? Why can't a game be a great RPG and equally great in elements of another genre? (This will not be the case for TESIV, just hypothetical)

 

[Drakron]

RPGCodex does not cover console games.

Jade empire is a Xbox game and so not covered by the Codex but I play it and I can honestly say that its s shitty RPG following the BioWare recent tread of dumbing down gameplay to a point were you could beat the game watching TV at the same time, the combat "rock-stone-scissor" is not very hard at first and it becases easier and easier to a point were you no longer care for any tactical use, adding overpowerful abilities make it easy to just swicth to Jade Golem and win any battle.

Conversation options are a joke (the usual BioWare loop) and the "intimidate/bluff/persuade" option are always give at the same time making then pointless.

Jade Empire is no RPG, its more a fighting/adventuring game that a RPG but BioWare reputation is on RPGs and so they brand anything that comes out as a RPG.

 

[Sarvis]

Ok then, it's not an RPG. BTW, how is Jade Empire? I played the demo, the fighting is actually a breath of fresh air. How is it gameplay-wise? I might give it a rent later on.

It's not bad. I haven't gotten too far into it yet, but combat seems a bit simplistic. You have two basic attacks, one being a power strike to get through blocking... you just tap the A button a few times and you do the combo for whatever style you have selected.

I think my main complaints are how slowly you move in combat. You can flip over an enemy's head to avoid an attack... but you land really far away and you can't quickstep in for a quick counter attack.

It's still pretty fun though, and may get more fun as I get further in.


<b>Drakron</b>

It's not a shitty RPG because it is not an RPG.

Bluff/intimidate/persuade do indeed appear at the same time. What's your point? They are there to give you an option of which tactic to use in the dialog. Intimidate may not work well in some situations, or because you don't have much skill for it or whatever.

It is not any kind of Adventure game either. No puzzle solving whatsoever. None. Therefore not Adventure.

I think, after some introspection, it should be classified as a Brawler along the lines of River City Ransom.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

It's been two days and we're only on page 4? How disappointing.

I'll join in 'round about page 6. See you all then.

 

[Sandelfron]

Meh, you guys'll argue against anything we say just to be argumentative. But you KNOW y'all will be buying the game day one

You reckon? Not since Morrowind and its complete cowpat of an
engine. Perhaps some of the programmers could have stopped
sniffing drain cleaner and coded some decent collision detection
for a start.

It's a pity that Bethesda vultured up rights to a Fallout sequel too-
in an ideal world it would have gone to a competent company like
Bioware. Thankfully it's only rights to one sequel.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

It's a pity that Bethesda vultured up rights to a Fallout sequel too-in an ideal world it would have gone to a competent company like Bioware. Thankfully it's only rights to one sequel.

Correction: Three actually. Bethesda have rights to Fallout 3, 4 and 5.

Bioware also suck, so shame on you. You call yourself an Australian?

... and dammit. You went and made me break my "page 6" thing too. You bastard. You'll pay for that.

 

[Shagnak]

We have the Shit Games Liberation Front, AKA Shagnak, to watch out for any games that might turn out to be not as bad as we thought they were.

Unfortunately I have not been doing my job very well lately.
the d\sheer volume of shit has overwelmed me to the extent that even receiving felatio from bl;onde teenies wont disrct me from the shittines of the current lot.
Sorry

 

[MrSmileyFaceDude]

RPGCodex does not cover console games.

That's a bit of a narrow-minded view -- consoles are perfectly capable of having RPGs of the depth and complexity that Codexers are looking for. There's absolutely no reason whatsoever that games like Fallout 1 and 2, for example, couldn't be fully realized on them. RPGCodex should cover (and from what I've seen, for the most part does) GAMES, not platforms. Blind "it's a console and therefore it's for dummies and children" prejudice has no place in intelligent discussion about games.

Oh and Sandelfron -- first, so nice to meet you! And second, we didn't inhale.

 

[Shagnak]

Consoles are the haven of TB
w00t
Discuss

 

[Vault Dweller]

Vault Dweller: What are some of the more recent RPGs that you approve of? I recall a post stating that the last RPG was Fallout. Where you being serious, or overgeneralizing?

You recalled somebody else's post then, as I've never stated anything like that. Fallout is a great game, one of the best, but not the last or the only. Post-Fallout RPGs that I liked are Arcanum, the Gothic games (to a lesser degree), Planescape, Prelude to Darkness, Geneforge, ToEE (as a great dungeon crawler), etc.

 

[Psilon]

Actually, there is a pretty good reason why deeper games aren't seen on consoles: hardware. How many times did you have to shrink the Morrowind cell size to fit into the X-Box's 64MB of RAM? Just how small were the Deus Ex 2 maps compared to Deus Ex?

And, of course, the more RAM that's filled with BSP trees and streaming textures, the less you have available for all those wonderful global variables.

Also, what about the gamepads? Practically no one has keyboard/mouse attachments for their console, so the interface will have to be simplified in order to compensate. KOTOR1 inventory interface, anyone?

And this isn't technically console hardware, but the TV is another bottleneck. How many console owners have actually upgraded to HDTV by this point? As long as a majority of the market still has their crappy composite-interface standard TV, you're trapped at a very blurry and prone-to-bleed 640x480. Monitors, by and large, have started running at much higher resolutions.

The XBox is what killed PC gaming for this decade.

 

[Vault Dweller]

That's a bit of a narrow-minded view -- consoles are perfectly capable of having RPGs of the depth and complexity that Codexers are looking for.

Such as? Capable doesn't mean realized. It's like Bethesda, a company that is capable of making good RPGs, but decided to focus on making the most awesome looking and realistically grown forests evar.

Blind "it's a console and therefore it's for dummies and children" prejudice has no place in intelligent discussion about games.

I agree. However, there are theories and there is reality. The reality in this particular case is that most if not all console games SO FAR have been aimed at dummies, children, and people seeking some "other than TV" form of entertainment like Prince of Persia or God of War.

Edit: And what Psilon said.

 

[Sarvis]

has no place in intelligent discussion about games.

Intelligent discussions about games? Here!?! :shock:

 

[Sandelfron]

Oh and Sandelfron -- first, so nice to meet you! And second, we didn't inhale.

Likewise. I'd shake your hand but I fear my code wouldn't compile afterwards (j/k).

 

[MrSmileyFaceDude]

Well, while my post did include some intentional irony, the point should still hold -- if and when RPGs that meet the RPGCodex seal of approval appear on consoles, the fact that they are on consoles shouldn't matter to this website.

 

[Vault Dweller]

That's a big IF. However, if such an extraordinary event ever take place, we'll consider covering it.