Top 10 role-playing games

[Kraszu]

7. Civilization II (the role you play is leader of your nation)
10. KOTOR (I hated II)

That tell more then a 1000 words.

Kotor II>>>>Kotor (it was boring, go to planet you wanna be bad? Go after the sing "to the sith camp" you wanna be good go to the oposit)

I am not saing that kotor II was very complicated, bu it was 10x beter in that aspect.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Guys, Deus Ex is one of the best games, but it's still not an computer roleplaying game. Linear story and exact same main character every time, only choice was in equipment save the ending. How did that pop in Codex top10 ? The game is as much rpg as zelda or final fantasys.

Could have been worse. Some people thought that IWD and Diablo are the best RPGs ever.

 

[Naked_Lunch]

Guys, Deus Ex is one of the best games, but it's still not an computer roleplaying game. Linear story and exact same main character every time, only choice was in equipment save the ending. How did that pop in Codex top10 ? The game is as much rpg as zelda or final fantasys.

No artificial stats and dice rolls, just dialogues and your own choices. Take Ultima game, put in in the future and in first-person mode and that's basically what Deus Ex is.

Wrong. Ultima had stats and dice rolls. Lock picking was based upon an agility/dexterity roll, smashing down doors was a strength check, et cetera. The combat, in even Ultima IX, was based on dice rolling. That's why if I attacked an enemy, even if the sword went right through his neck, it wouldn't register unless I made the roll. If it wasn't stat or dice based, I would hit him every time as long as I was close enough. That didn't happen.

Without stats and dice rolls, all you have is an adventure game. Indigo Prophecy/Farenheit had dialouge and your own choices, but is it an RPG? Nope.

 

[Atrokkus]

So you put the alter-egoism above everything else?
I mean, what if the game implied that it's YOU who is living in the gameworld, who affects it with your actions? That is roleplaying still, because you play YOUR role in an alternative, illusionary environment. Why would a role mean only some fictional character?

 

[Shevek]

Define "Role Playing Game".

A vast array of choices ranging from character developement to story completion. Choices that allow you to be a certain distinct person that may change completely on another play through the game.

Choices.

Incorrect. RPGs are games where the player character's success and failures are governed by a set of stats that increase (either through a template class or player selection) over time played. One could argue that the quality of the RPG is governed by how well it simulates situations and environments. This of course includes things like choices and noncombat interactions. A poor RPG will have its stat system govern only combat interactions (sometimes even only some aspects of some combat interactions, as in Warcraft 3) where a good one would branch beyond that and even give players meaningful choices (whose successes and failures should also be governed by stat rolls). The good RPG, then, is defined by how pervasive the stat system. Stats are CENTRAL to rpgs. Without them, anyone can do anything a gameworld allows. That is basically an adventure game.

Choices can and have existed in titles that are in no way, shape or form roleplaying games. I have read read choose your own adventure books when younger that were not roleplaying books. I have played adventure titles, such as last express, with simulated enviroments and a fair degree of choice/endings that had zero stats and were therefore not roleplaying games.

By this set of criteria, one can see that every title on that list, including Deus Ex, is certainly a RPG. Some are just better than others (DX, for example, is pretty weak as a RPG using this schema).

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I'm not attacking anyone. I just want to know how to enjoy replaying RPGs, because if I can learn this skill perhaps I wouldn't be so fixated on finding new RPGs to play.

Because a good CRPG, even the hack & slasher action types, should play differently with different character types. You might get the majority of the overall plot one time through, but you won't get the total experience of the game with just one play through.

Besides, the overall plot is rarely as interesting as the smaller details of the people and places in the game. What happens if I try to sneak my way through this area? What happens if I bribe this guy? What happens if I piss this guy off? Things like that not only allow the game to be played differently, but also show different sides of NPCs(Unless BioWare wrote the dialogue, then pissing off the guy and being nice to the guy gives you the same dialogue response and there is no impact on the game).

If you're not interested in how the changes in your character build affects the game and only in the story, then you can eliminate the majority of the hassle of playing a CRPG and just stick with adventure games.

 

[TheGreatGodPan]

DX did have stats. That's why all the fans were howling for blood when they heard about the changes. Deus Ex isn't a "true rpg", so I don't think I'd put it on a top-ten RPG list (it belongs there more than System Shock 2 though). You can play it differently with different characters, which is why so many people play it over and over again. And your actions do have meanings. It's the first game I've played where on the first level you are encouraged to not kill anyone, not because you might suffer repercussions from it, but due to moral reasons. One failure on the designers part was that you needed to kill 1 person to beat the game (they originally wanted it to be beatable without killing anyone, which they pulled off in the sequel, which also allows you to kill absolutely everyone), but I still thought that was pretty impressive. A lot of people have commented that after you had to leave UNATCO (something I was irritated by, but accepted) they felt guilty about the NSF they had killed, or were unwilling to fight the UNATCO troopers that they used to be friendly with and felt bad for. Deus Ex treats you like you are a real person and are responsible for how your actions affect others. Even if your code-name is always JC Denton and you always start out as a UNATCO agent, I and many others really felt we were playing our own role in the game, even though it was a linear progression of levels. I'd say it's more of an RPG than Diablo or Final Fantasy though.

 

[Section8]

DX did have stats. That's why all the fans were howling for blood when they heard about the changes. Deus Ex isn't a "true rpg", so I don't think I'd put it on a top-ten RPG list (it belongs there more than System Shock 2 though).

I was a bit indecisive about whether System Shock 2 should have made it into my own list, and here's how I justify it.

System Shock 2 allows me to develop, using a stat based character system, dramatically different characters, where my choices result in a markedly different gameplay. It doesn't impose an identity or personality over my own choices, and justifies most of its shortcomings (lack of NPC interaction, linear progression at times, etc) well within the setting. And it doesn't offer choice beyond its own ability to react.

It does place a bit too much emphasis on player ability over player skill, but at least the tight restrictions of the character mean player skill can rarely exceed character limits.

Deus Ex on the other hand, overstepped its bounds. The were choices I could make that weren't accounted for at all, and trivial choices that were over-accounted for. The classic example is killing every UNATCO trooper on Liberty Island vs walking into the women's toilets in UNATCO HQ.

On top of that the plot is essentially linear, and some pretty fucking major decisions are made for you, and there's quite a bit of identity imposed over your own choices. Basically, your "role" boils down to "killer JC Denton" or "non-lethal JC Denton". Even though more character choices are offered in the skill set available, those two are about the only ones you're free to express during moments of character exposition. Since System Shock 2 has no traditional character exposition, they are defined solely by their statistical makeup.

To me, Deus Ex is the more ambitious, but less successful cousin of System Shock 2.

 

[Spazmo]

I always thought that Bloodlines was a more complete realization of Deus Ex's promise, though it wasn't quite there, either.

 

[theverybigslayer]

After seeing this, I hate you all (or atleast most fo you). You guys like so many shitty games but claim to be RPG MASTARS (most of you atleast).

and you can play Serious Sam 2 the best rpg ever now!

 

[Naked_Lunch]

What the fuck dude, Serious Sam 2 is actually a fun game. Too bad the same can't be said for your precious Dungeon Lords.

 

[theverybigslayer]

What the fuck dude, Serious Sam 2 is actually a fun game. Too bad the same can't be said for your precious Dungeon Lords.

You are right Serious Sam 2 is better than that shit ultima.
but why did you forget to vote for it?

 

[Hazelnut]

Okay, a bit late, but that's never stopped me yet.

In memory order...

1) Fallout
2) Fallout 2
3) Geneforge
4) BG2: Shadows of Amn
5) Ultima Underworld 2
6) System Shock 2
7) Deus Ex
8) PS:Torment
9) Daggerfall
10) Morrowind

And as a honourable mention: Dungeon Master! Those were the days....

 

[Naked_Lunch]

What the fuck dude, Serious Sam 2 is actually a fun game. Too bad the same can't be said for your precious Dungeon Lords.

You are right Serious Sam 2 is better than that shit ultima.
but why did you forget to vote for it?

Umm, I never said that nor did I ever compare Serious Sam to being an RPG. Serious Sam is a shooter, a fucking fun one. FORGIVE ME FATHER, I HAVE COMMITED A GRAVE SIN! I PLAY OTHER GAMES BESIDES RPGS!

 

[DarkUnderlord]

The hive mind has spoken. Here is the list of the best RPGs voted by our readers who may or may not have a clue.

I like how the title of that thread is "Unofficial 'Codex Top Ten."

 

[Pr()ZaC]

There should be a poll.

 

[Sarvis]

Deus Ex I found impressive in many ways, but very gameplay-contrived, and just not RPG-enough.

Maybe that's because it's an FPS...

 

[Naked_Lunch]

Or at least more FPS than RPG. You cannot deny that it has RPG-aspects to it, but is it a full-fledged RPG? No. Does it belong in any top ten? No.

 

[kingcomrade]

Deux Ex, the game where the super duper top secret agent had apparantly no firearms training. gunz r hrd!!

I can see how you might say it's an RPG though. It didn't have Patrick Stewart, it DID have crossbows...

 

[Shagnak]

Deus Ex has as many RPG aspects as Arx Fatalis has.
Both rely on some twitch stuff, but both heavily affect the success of twitch stuff with character stats. Both also assess non-twitch stuff in relation to character stats.
They probably even have a similar level of dialogue.

Really, the real difference is that one has guns n stuff and the other has trad fantasy stuff. Apparently that means one is an FPS but the other is an RPG (albeit a lite one).

I don't really care about [insert person]'s definition of "RPG" that may or may not be universal and definitive. People voted in the poll as they did. If Jed considered DX to not be an rpg then he could remove them from results, it's his poll.
Since they are there, you can always look at the extended list and shift results up accordingly after removing stuff you consider "non RPG", if the list really offends you..

 

[kingcomrade]

Best RPGS:

1) Final Fantasy 7
2a) Final Fantasy 10 - (PATRICK STEWART!!!)
2b) Final Fantasy 10-2
3) Final Fantasy 6
4) Final Fantasy 3 - Cuz its the same game as FF6 ROFLZ!
5) Final Fantasy...um, 8
6) The other Final Fantasies
7) Xenogears
8) Chrono Trigger
9) Halo
10) omg its too hard to choose

 

[sabishii]

I'm not attacking anyone. I just want to know how to enjoy replaying RPGs, because if I can learn this skill perhaps I wouldn't be so fixated on finding new RPGs to play.

Because a good CRPG, even the hack & slasher action types, should play differently with different character types. You might get the majority of the overall plot one time through, but you won't get the total experience of the game with just one play through.

Besides, the overall plot is rarely as interesting as the smaller details of the people and places in the game. What happens if I try to sneak my way through this area? What happens if I bribe this guy? What happens if I piss this guy off? Things like that not only allow the game to be played differently, but also show different sides of NPCs(Unless BioWare wrote the dialogue, then pissing off the guy and being nice to the guy gives you the same dialogue response and there is no impact on the game).

If you're not interested in how the changes in your character build affects the game and only in the story, then you can eliminate the majority of the hassle of playing a CRPG and just stick with adventure games.

I think my standards are just way too high. Yes, I would love to create characters and see how the world reacts to them. I always think up character concepts for, for example, Morrowind. But as I create my character and then play, I don't see any difference. Maybe I'm just lazy or impatient, not willing to tough it out for a couple hours until my character branches out differently compared to my previous one and explores in a different direction. I like immediate results - I like the game to hook me into it rather than me trying to drudge into the good part. And this is why I can enjoy replaying MMORPGS such as WoW, where as I play a different race, from the get-go I get a bunch of different quests sure to last me at least an hour where I am sure to be drawn into the game.

In addition, because there are actual humans in MMORPGs, I can expect other characters to react realistically to me, whereas in single player RPGs the NPCs are still too limited in this area. Yes, there are some games with very good NPC interaction such as Fallout and Planescape, but after playing it once and knowing what the NPCs' reaction or one of their reactions will be, they become hollow and bodies of scripted dialogue rather than pretend human beings.

I guess replaying RPGs is just not for me.

 

[Section8]

Some RPGs do a good job of accounting for player choice straight away. Some don't.

The classic "how not to" guide, which doubles as a "don't let marketing make design decisions" guide, is Fallout 2. It's bad enough if your character build doesn't have a significant effect during the "formative years", there's no need to make it worse with significant negative effects.

Player: "I'm fast talkin', fast shootin' fucker with a penchant for heavy weaponry."
Arroyo Tribe: "Here's a spear. And some pants."
Player: "Fucking savages."

There's a lot of grind in Fallout 2 before you get to the worthwhile stuff, ergo I haven't replayed it often. Sadly, I can't think of an example of an exceptionally positive counter-example. The best I can think of off hand would be Arcanum.

Arcanum does a good job of providing social expression for the character early on, by providing a whole host of diametrically opposed quests, and a solid dialogue with Virgil. Stat wise, the backgrounds are a great way to define and distinguish your initial archetype, but it can take quite a while to develop into a significantly different role, and the linear plot constraint cruels the replayability a little.

I agree in thinking MMORPGs handle new character development pretty well. The ones I've played have all used variable starting locations based on race and sometimes class, which straight away shouts out "new experience." Starting the player off in a part of the world they've never seen is a pretty significant facet of replayability.

Also, with a reasonable social structure and group/party system, even the typical monotony of going out and killing the same monsters over and over again takes on new dimension in a group where the component characters are all able to focus on their particular role.

But the other thing is being able to see the fruits of your fellow player's developments. Seeing an active demonstration of another appealing character archetype is good way to install the awe of "heeeeey, I bet I could do that."

Of course it's not ideal for single player games design to blindly mimic elements of MMOGs, but there's still plenty of lessons to be learned.

 

[Linedog]

No Betrayal at Krondor, no Darklands in the top 10. Besides that not bad at all
@Deacdo - i think Darklands had the best system, but the one in Daggerfall was nice too - and more complicated.

I don't think I ever played Darklands. I loved the complexity of Daggerfall's system. Seriously, how many RPGs let you create a character who can't handle iron or steel?

I really liked the Daggerfall's system as well.Also, I found the backstory and world to be fairly interesting. I thought it all added up to great potential for future games in the series. Was massively disappointed with Morrowind and have not and will not buy Oblivion. Too bad Daggerfall is not moddable.

 

[LlamaGod]

i'm glad you took half a year to think that post out