SO Codex ppl... Still hatin on OB?

[elander_]

Oh i think the new players who don't have a clue about what rp is anymore will be VERY INTERESTED to know what it meant to role-play in the classics and how game publishers are trying to change the meaning of role-playing. This is the purpose of a news site isn't it, to inform people of what is going on?

 

[Zomg]

I think today's shitbox Hollywood movies are a better analogy for a pathologically mainstreamed and blockbusterized industry than music, which is actually diversifying rapidly due to .mp3s and cheap recording.

 

[Abernathy]

Does Fusion tell you something? And you really think that's crap music?

Dunno about you, but where I live you have to listen to the Classical radio stations to hear fusion, it certainly ain't mainstream.

Gaming has parallels, certainly. There's the matter of taste and there's also the matter of misrepresentation. Sometimes the line gets blurry.

My personal take on 'Rap', for instance, is that it simply isn't music as such. I'd be quite happy to see it classified as poetry with a rhythmic background, but to me it lacks a hell of a lot of those elements that make up what we call music - melody and harmony being a couple off the top of my head. But many would and do disagree.

Same goes for something that's claimed to be an RPG but isn't. Blurry lines, maybe, but wars have been fought over less...

 

[sheek]

I've changed my mind. I was basing my opinion on Morrowind and expecting Oblivion to have the same basic flaws with improved graphics. Oblivion is definitely a step forward from Morrowind though.

That said I still think the hype and hysteria over it was pretty moronic. Personally I'd give it a 7 - 7.5 out of 10 - Morrowind would have got a 6 - 6.5 out of 10.

When I get a new PC in a couple years time I'll probably buy it.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

Re:

SO Codex ppl... Still hatin on OB?

Yay, another plant with a yahoo e-mail account. Just what we've always wanted.

It doesn't play out anmore in video games, as it stopped being useful for reviewing in music. We have seen so many crossovers, in both categories, that the "how does it compare to a scheme" is really invalid.

I think that's one of the greatest fallacies being bandied about these days. Oh no! We can't describe things anymore because they're all merged! Last I checked, R&B, Pop, Classical and every other genre was still being used as a naming mechanism to describe music. It's not too hard to define something based predominantly on what it is as "mergers" are rarely equal amounts of everything. GTA: San Andreas may have stats for example but that doesn't mean it's an RPG. It's driving doesn't make it a driving simulator (as the driving mechanics are hardly designed as such) and the flying aspect doesn't make it a flying simulator. While those two concepts may mean it's not "one or the other" the reality is that its combat focussed storyline and gameplay (what else is there to do, really except collect guns?) mean it's quite easily identified as a 3rd Person "Action Shooter". While I agree that the lines are becoming merged, they're not THAT merged as to be completely irrelevant.

Well, to start off this "fits to a genre" is, in my opinion, the first shortcoming in your system.

Keeping the above in mind, the problem here is that this is, once again, the ROLE PLAYING GAME Codex. It'd make sense for us to review things solely from their role-playing aspects then, wouldn't it and not whether the game was fun purely from a gameplay point of view? If we did so, we lose the focus of our site and may as well join the ranks of every other generic gaming site which bandies praise on the game simply because "the water looks really, really cool!!1".

 

[Vault Dweller]

Well, to start off this "fits to a genre" is, in my opinion, the first shortcoming in your system.

So, reviewing RPGs as RPGs is a shortcoming?

We have seen so many crossovers, in both categories, that the "how does it compare to a scheme" is really invalid.

I don't compare games to some schemes, I simply evaluate all features from the RPG point of view, and then take a look at how well they work together.

People don't really care about if a game is an RPG or not.

That's where we disagree. Maybe your "clientele" doesn't care, but most people who visit the Codex do. That's why the site exists.

When doing my Oblivion review, I will not measure the game against RPG standards.

Thanks for the warning :wink:

Roleplaying elements are there, and if Oblivion stays true to the TES legacy, they will be many and important ...

Your confidence is inspiring, but won't it be nice to read in your review what role-playing elements the game offers, how well they are implemented, and how important they are?

I think the main concern I have with your approach to looking at the game is that your "quest for the holy grail of roleplaying" (not meant ironically) isn't compatible with TES games in general. You are at one end of the spectrum (see your praise for Prelude to Darkness), those fantasy world simulators like Daggerfall, Morrowind and Oblivion are at the other end.

I'm a big fan of Daggerfall and consider it to be one of the top 10 RPGs. I also like ADOM, Jagged Alliance, Realms of Arkania games, and Diablo 2. A game doesn't have to be isometric, turn-based, and dialogue-heavy to be a great RPG. Unfortunately, there is a huge design difference between DF and Oblivion, which makes one an RPG and the other an exploration shooter with stats.

 

[Chefe]

So.............................................. when are we getting the official codex review of oblivion?

 

[Pr()ZaC]

Chefe, the one you posted is just enough.

 

[Chefe]

:D

 

[Vault Dweller]

So.............................................. when are we getting the official codex review of oblivion?

First impressions in 2 weeks, an official review in about a month, unless someone else will do it faster.

 

[Chefe]

Hotness.

 

[AlanC9]

Re:

Keeping the above in mind, the problem here is that this is, once again, the ROLE PLAYING GAME Codex. It'd make sense for us to review things solely from their role-playing aspects then, wouldn't it and not whether the game was fun purely from a gameplay point of view? If we did so, we lose the focus of our site and may as well join the ranks of every other generic gaming site which bandies praise on the game simply because "the water looks really, really cool!!1".

I don't see that as an either/or. We can bash a game for not being a good RPG while still admitting it's fun. Take Desslock's Dungeon Siege review, mentioned earlier in the thread. He gave DS a pretty good number, but he did mention the many horrible and stupid mechanics. If he'd posted that here, people would have ragged on his bad taste, but they wouldn't have bashed him for being a DS fanboy.

But there just weren't that many people here who enjoyed Morrowind in the first place. People who hang out here tend to like different kinds of games. As for Oblivion, we'll see. They've promised better quest design than MW, so that would be an improvement. Most of the other changes seem to be either irrelevant to Codexers, or actually making the game worse.

 

[Rune_74]

vault dweller

vault dweller...man, your an ass....its that simple.

keep spewing your shit to the mindless masses who listen.

 

[Shim]

Some of the best music coming out these days (IMO) does not fit easily into one genre or another. And as I think about my favorite music over the years, most of them don't fit into a category, unless you count "ecletic", whatever the fuck that means.

Just had to pick up on this (as if your double post wasnt enough, hehe). Its good to see others here feel the same way as I do. For me at least, some of the best music Ive heard in the last 10 years is the kind that suffers from what you could call 'genre-tension'; music that defiles the more superflous genre-rules while adhering to the core spirit of a kind of musical experience which gives birth to the genre in the first place. A sort of 're-evaluation of core morals' if you will.

So, reviewing RPGs as RPGs is a shortcoming?

Hell no !! Stick to your instincts VD, methinks they are right.

Genres exist because we need a way of labelling similar game experiences - they are needed and useful. Of course the problem is that some forces (in the case of games, economic and market based) try to set certain genre-rules in stone as a rather pathetic attempt to dominate the genre. Which, I think, is where the Codex has its merits. Fanboys take note - throughout History, those who oppose the forces that try to arbitrarily codify genre-rules tend to exxagerate their case somewhat. Rebellion tends to be vicous and attention-seeking. It kinda needs to be as well given the number of people who are quick to seek the comforts of the status-quo as a means of self justification.

Anyhow, I best stop before I write myself a goddamn essay

 

[Vault Dweller]

Re: vault dweller

vault dweller...man, your an ass....its that simple.

Ah, my number #1 fan. Did you get Oblivion yet? Is that everything you had hoped it would be? wats ur charactar?

 

[Tintin]

VD Did you get Oblivion yet? (seriously)

 

[Vault Dweller]

Yes. I picked it up yesterday. Unfortunately, I can't run the fucker because everything is white (see http://www.rpgcodex.com/phpBB/viewtopic ... 95&start=0). My supercomputer should arrive in 3 days. My current computer is Toshiba laptop P4, 3.2Ghz, 512 RAM, ATI Radeon 9000 64MB.

 

[Tintin]

Oh...right.....

I can see how a Radeon 9000 is a problem, since the lowest supported card is a 9500...

 

[Vault Dweller]

Which is why I'm not bitching, but patiently waiting for my NASA supercamputar to arrive.

 

[Mr.Rocco]

As I explained, yes, I had a lot of fun with Dungeon Siege. Got it?

Hence, you're a moron.

 

[Venom]

As I explained, yes, I had a lot of fun with Dungeon Siege. Got it?

Hence, you're a moron.

Wow...somebody can be a moron for liking a game.

 

[Major_Blackhart]

Yo, Rocco's got some balls here. Are they big like oranges?

 

[Tintin]

Which is why I'm not bitching, but patiently waiting for my NASA supercamputar to arrive.

So is it loaded with a Nvidia GeForce 7900XTXGXT or whatever?

 

[Major_Blackhart]

Well, has it been said we have a DXIW situation on our hands?

 

[IClaudius]

I think the main concern I have with your approach to looking at the game is that your "quest for the holy grail of roleplaying" (not meant ironically) isn't compatible with TES games in general.

Why not? What is it about TES games that make Morrowind's infamous lack of consequences an integral part of the freedom they offer?

You are at one end of the spectrum (see your praise for Prelude to Darkness), those fantasy world simulators like Daggerfall, Morrowind and Oblivion are at the other end. I don't want to start the discussion about freedom vs. consequences again, but it boils down to exactly that point. I understand your desire for consequences for your actions, but please understand that a game design like the TES games can only cater you a part of what you want.

Well you may not want to discuss it, but you've just tabled it anyway...

So, what makes TES's brand of freedom desirable, and deserving of protection and continuance, over the freedom WITH consequences offered by games like FO2 or the Gothic series? In those games you had robust freedom and world granularity, but also permanency that was responsive in a way that Morrowind couldn't even approach. It's worth asking, therefore, why does insulating the player from meaningful consequences define TES freedom, and why should we accept it? What's the benefit, apart from easier design for the developer?

Someone on another forum (I think it was on evilavatar.com) said that what he likes about TES games is that there are voids you have to fill with your imagination and act accordingly to that. You may see this as a shortcoming, I see this as something I am looking for.

Sounds like excusing laziness to me. I see a lot of people get defensive of Morrowind because they happen to enjoy the stat/item whoring treadmill, and had enough imagination to fill in the lack of responsive roleplaying, but that's not an adequate answer to a roleplaying critique when we know you can have both freedom and consequences if it is designed that way.