Robust JRPGs like Final Fantasy?

[wolfbane]

utterly banal

 

[Ash]

Hey I've been a Fantasy Final embracer since its been around. FF1 was eye opening for a young consolefag at the time, knew the world they created was special. But time for something else now. I do want to go back to some of the 2D ones eventually, with romhacks.

Going to give all the games I named a spin, just a matter of knowing which ones aren't complete trash and which to play first.

Go back to the 3D ones with romhacks too. That's a better result than the 2D ones with romhacks (none really save the flaws e.g no balance mod for FFV and nothing that fixes the retard-tier first third of 6). Meanwhile the romhacks for the 3D ones turn them into pure

Played Parasite Eve 1 & 2 yet? Not the best thing ever but pretty engaging games oozing style and interesting content.

 

[Machocruz]

Go back to the 3D ones with romhacks too. That's a better result than the 2D ones with romhacks (none really save the flaws e.g no balance mod for FFV and nothing that fixes the retard-tier first third of 6). Meanwhile the romhacks for the 3D ones turn them into pure

Played Parasite Eve 1 & 2 yet? Not the best thing ever but pretty engaging games oozing style and interesting content.

The only thing is that 3 character party is decline to me. Even 4 is on the low side, but when can you do when dealing with JRPGs? Probably the best thing about FF4 is five member party, the main reason I gave it a chance in the first place. Not that I didn't enjoy 7 & 8, just saying.

Some of the FF1-3 hacks I saw looked interesting, with whole new classes, locations, NPCs, etc. Do the PSX FF hacks do that?

 

[Ash]

Some of the FF1-3 hacks I saw looked interesting, with whole new classes, locations, NPCs, etc. Do the PSX FF hacks do that?

Some do, e.g FF7 New Threat or FF6 Brave New World, but oftentimes modders do not know how to restrain themselves and add low quality content or cringe, lets just say. I'm not generally a purist, but there is some pretty absurd stuff out there.
I just stick to vanilla-friendly hardtype difficulty hacks which takes the gameplay from "robust" to highly strategic and synergistic. Complex elegance. Must-play experiences.

Why place such emphasis in number of party members? It definitely is important for combat complexity, yet another character to define and such but is merely one aspect of such big complex games. Even single character RPGs can be good if the execution is right. FF9 also has four character parties, just fyi.

 

[tommy heavenly6]

Do the PSX FF hacks do that?

New Threat for FF7 is quite the revamp, adding more freedom to shape your characters' stats in a fashion more akin to a CRPG, new sidequests, new materia, new megabosses. It's enjoyable from a mechanical aspect, but don't play it if you value preserving canon narrative.

 

[Ash]

I started it and was struggling with the cringe. Combined with the fact it's unstable (PC version + 7th heaven modding framework + graphics mods + new threat) and crashed more than once, I was like fuck this this is dumb. Game hardly even needs graphics mods, crashing in a game with sometimes very long duration between save points is unacceptable, and FF7 Hardtype is already pretty much peak the game's potential anyway (nearly)...just meh. I want mods that add more materia, stat manipulation and such, but why they gotta be so cringe with the writing, among other things.

 

[Damned Registrations]

So far I'm trying to decide between BoF 2/3/or 4, Star Ocean 2, DQ3, or Golden Sun 2.

I've played all of these except Golden Sun, and BoF 4 was the only one I didn't finish. It's a very pretty game, but the combat was way, way too easy and the dragons are boring.

I'd recommend BoF 3 if it's the side content you're after. Finding all the dragon genes and masters alone is a ton of side content, and it has lots of other minigames and stuff as well like the town building and fishing. Lots of minigames in the main progression as well, if that's your thing. It is pretty linear though; most of the hidden side stuff is just the equivalent of a secret side passage, like a little unmarked cave on the overworld or something. There's not really entire optional dungeons or the option to do parts of the story in a different order. I don't think there's really even any optional bosses, aside from some brutal random encounters in an endgame area, which are more gimmick fights than actual bosses. The last pro I'll mention is it's the best damned looking game I've ever played. Still images don't do the hand drawn animations justice. It's pretty much the last gasp of high budget 2D artwork before companies started just using 3D meshes, slapping some filters on and having a computer animate it for them while pretending it's 2D.

Star Ocean 2 has a ton of side content as well, but the first half of the game or so, not so much. What it does have going for it is non-linearity and mutually exclusive content, including entire party members. If you're into the idea of watching skits with your party of misfits, it's a great game, as there are a ton of these, and they're actually fully played out scenes in towns, instead of just VN style dialogue spam like the Tales series adopted. Once you get onto disc 2 the game opens up a lot more, and has a lot more side content, including a theme park with some minigames, optional areas, and a huge optional dungeon. The game also has some high difficulty options if that's your thing, including a hidden super form of the final boss. That's missable without a guide though, and difficulties are gated behind NG+ stuff iirc. Lastly, the game has a ton of side content, not in the form of minigames or dungeons, but in the form of it's crafting/skill system. It's not just cranking out weapons or armour, but includes things like potions, skill books, counterfeit money, music and pets. Some of it is rather abstract, like the pet stuff, but it provides cool gameplay effects.

DQ 3 is the last one I'll recommend. It's essentially an open world jrpg. It has a ton of optional content, including entire towns and dungeons, much of the game can be done in arbitrary order, and there's some cool minigame/puzzle/treasure hunt kind of stuff going on. However, a lot of it is easily missed due to being borderline adventure game puzzle logic. There are things you can do that make a kind of sense, but you almost certainly wouldn't bother trying because you'd assume the developers wouldn't have thought to make it an option. Think something like casting an ice spell repeatedly during a boss fight to put a house fire out when it's not doing any damage and nobody even mentioned the idea. Overall it's a really cool game, and I like the job/class system and freedom of exploration, but it's also a bit janky.

 

[Ash]

Oh, the furry put me on ignore because I poop on his worthless braindead FF4 and CT, among other similar fake RPGs he loves. Cute. We'll have to agree to disagree I guess, if he cannot be made to see the truth. Live and let live. One man's trash is another's treasure and all that. Translation: one man with high standards and the other with none!

 

[Gilius Thunderhead]

Do the PSX FF hacks do that?

New Threat for FF7 is quite the revamp, adding more freedom to shape your characters' stats in a fashion more akin to a CRPG, new sidequests, new materia, new megabosses. It's enjoyable from a mechanical aspect, but don't play it if you value preserving canon narrative.

I started it and was struggling with the cringe. Combined with the fact it's unstable (PC version + 7th heaven modding framework + graphics mods + new threat) and crashed more than once, I was like fuck this this is dumb. Game hardly even needs graphics mods, crashing in a game with sometimes very long duration between save points is unacceptable, and FF7 Hardtype is already pretty much peak the game's potential anyway (nearly)...just meh. I want mods that add more materia, stat manipulation and such, but why they gotta be so cringe with the writing, among other things.

I seem to remember that New Threat changed substantially between 1.5 and 2.0; we're not talking merely of incremental additions, but of a different design approach. From what I gathered, not everyone seems to approve of the changes. Myself, I played 1.5 a few years ago and had a great time, but I can't vouch for 2.0. I think you can install just one mod without bothering with 7th heaven and the graphical stuff. HardType I've only played in Midgar. It seemed quite fun and balanced (I used nearly all my potions in the first boss). I'd go with that if you're suspicious of ANY additions to dialogue and just want improved gameplay.

I made a thread to discuss and compare romhacks some time ago, but I haven't been updating it:
https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads...iculty-mods-hacks-in-depth-discussion.149067/

 

[Reinhardt]

what the fuck is even this thread about? i thought it's about jrpgs with lots of side and hidden shit to explore, not just another apples vs oranges.

 

[Ash]

It's not just about optional content! It's about robust gameplay in general: complex combat systems, not just equipping the latest equipment found with zero thought or spamming simple strategies. RPG systems that allow you to express preferences, develop growth optimization strategies and define characters as you please, but also sometimes challenging enough that you have to adapt those builds and strategies. Story events that are more than just text, but actually create unique engaging gameplay like FFV Karnak castle escape. Level design with a great deal of variety and complexity, not all of it being optional. Navigation challenge in dungeons, exploration potential that pays off on the overworld. And yes, plenty optional side content too. GOD TIER stuff like Triple Triad.

Actual game design, such that makes you think, strategize, weigh risk vs reward, potentially fail and die, take a while to figure out a puzzle or gimmick, or even get lost. Having to factor in multiple elements of gameplay in tandem, not just the immediate battle and attrition of health potions, but your long term strategy too (e.g build choices, or this dungeon is filled with poison, I better go easy on antidotes and not forget to stock up in the future). All something JRPGs often lack entirely. cRPGs often too, but it's not quite as pathetic there. We're talking games that fit the true definition of RPGs with multi-layered gameplay, not fake dumb storyfag ones that have hours upon hours braindead barebones pretend gameplay that couldn't be any more divorced from tabletop nor video game design concepts. Something robust, high effort and engaging, like so:

Level Design Example

This is a simplified map too.

 

[Arthandas]

PC version + 7th heaven modding framework + graphics mods + new threat

Wtf dude, all you need is the PC version + Reunion, stay away from 7th heaven - it's for people who want to mod FF7 out of FF7.

 

[Ash]

Reunion, if I recall, is fairly new. It didn't exist back when I tried modding the PC version. Looking into progress, seems it is coming along nicely. They've even an optional module in the works to make the gold saucer mini-games better, something very much needed, though currently they have served up a nothing burger - score recalculation for the coaster and different controls for the submarine, wow unnecessary. How about making that shite torturous bird racing game not absolutely retarded via mechanical expansion? Or allowing the player to exit the sadistic moogle game of doom? Or adding modifiers to the bike game to make it less of a repeat of the story event (much like the snowboarding offers new content/different courses over the story event)? Or making the submarine game actually challenging and fun? Typical modders.

 

[wolfbane]

what the fuck is even this thread about? i thought it's about jrpgs with lots of side and hidden shit to explore, not just another apples vs oranges.

It’s what it always comes down to, sadly.

For some other examples, Shin Megami Tensei IV has excellent side content and is all around a very “robust” JRPG. The side quests are pretty challenging, and cool and thematic. Dungeon design is the weakest part of the game, however. Pretty boring stuff IMO.

I’m also quite fond of Atelier Sophie, which also boasts some very fun and varied side content, with lots of charming elements and character interactions. I say side content, but it’s the bulk of the game, as the main “plot” is like 5% of the game. You spend most of it just finding stuff in the wild, making new creations, and doing character interaction stuff.

 

[Machocruz]

I've played all of these except Golden Sun, and BoF 4 was the only one I didn't finish. It's a very pretty game, but the combat was way, way too easy and the dragons are boring.

I'd recommend BoF 3 if it's the side content you're after. Finding all the dragon genes and masters alone is a ton of side content, and it has lots of other minigames and stuff as well like the town building and fishing. Lots of minigames in the main progression as well, if that's your thing. It is pretty linear though; most of the hidden side stuff is just the equivalent of a secret side passage, like a little unmarked cave on the overworld or something. There's not really entire optional dungeons or the option to do parts of the story in a different order. I don't think there's really even any optional bosses, aside from some brutal random encounters in an endgame area, which are more gimmick fights than actual bosses. The last pro I'll mention is it's the best damned looking game I've ever played. Still images don't do the hand drawn animations justice. It's pretty much the last gasp of high budget 2D artwork before companies started just using 3D meshes, slapping some filters on and having a computer animate it for them while pretending it's 2D.

Star Ocean 2 has a ton of side content as well, but the first half of the game or so, not so much. What it does have going for it is non-linearity and mutually exclusive content, including entire party members. If you're into the idea of watching skits with your party of misfits, it's a great game, as there are a ton of these, and they're actually fully played out scenes in towns, instead of just VN style dialogue spam like the Tales series adopted. Once you get onto disc 2 the game opens up a lot more, and has a lot more side content, including a theme park with some minigames, optional areas, and a huge optional dungeon. The game also has some high difficulty options if that's your thing, including a hidden super form of the final boss. That's missable without a guide though, and difficulties are gated behind NG+ stuff iirc. Lastly, the game has a ton of side content, not in the form of minigames or dungeons, but in the form of it's crafting/skill system. It's not just cranking out weapons or armour, but includes things like potions, skill books, counterfeit money, music and pets. Some of it is rather abstract, like the pet stuff, but it provides cool gameplay effects.

DQ 3 is the last one I'll recommend. It's essentially an open world jrpg. It has a ton of optional content, including entire towns and dungeons, much of the game can be done in arbitrary order, and there's some cool minigame/puzzle/treasure hunt kind of stuff going on. However, a lot of it is easily missed due to being borderline adventure game puzzle logic. There are things you can do that make a kind of sense, but you almost certainly wouldn't bother trying because you'd assume the developers wouldn't have thought to make it an option. Think something like casting an ice spell repeatedly during a boss fight to put a house fire out when it's not doing any damage and nobody even mentioned the idea. Overall it's a really cool game, and I like the job/class system and freedom of exploration, but it's also a bit janky.

Thanks for the breakdown! They all sound pretty cool in their own way. I started up some BoF2 last night, just to get my procrastinating ass going on something. Only at lvl7 so can't say much about it. Fairly typical stuff so far, but pretty charming and I like the outlaw Bow plotline. Encounter rate annoying. Boss sprites are very nice.

I've seen many screens of BoF3 and the sprites are impressive. Though never liked when they paired 2d characters with those low res 3D backgrounds back then. Not a deal breaker, but it's why I gravitated to BoF2 first. I'm willing to switch over to 3 if it's the better game, have too much on my plate to spend time on inferior series' entries right now.

 

[Damned Registrations]

Though never liked when they paired 2d characters with those low res 3D backgrounds back then.

I generally feel the same way, but I think they deserve a pass since they actually use the 3D to hide some easter eggs and treasures and such, and occasionally do some cool camera movement stuff.

I would in fact suggest just skipping ahead to BoF3. 2 has a spot in my heart, but 3 is honestly better in just about every way, and 2 is a very long game. I think the only thing I'd give 2 the edge in is the jokes. Jean is one of the best characters thanks to his dialogue. But the encounter rate isn't going to get any nicer, and the game has some especially mean parts that can make you slog through a lot of extra encounters if you're not prepared. BoF3 has some annoyingly high encounter rate areas too, and starts off a bit slow, but once you get your dragon powers the game is one of the best imo.