Pete Hines Audio Interview

[Claw]

Just barely. I like it better than Gothic's invulnerability, but then this also means you don't have the overglorified "continue the broken game" choice anymore.

 

[Revasser]

Just barely. I like it better than Gothic's invulnerability, but then this also means you don't have the overglorified "continue the broken game" choice anymore.

I honestly tend to believe the devs when they say that "you've really fucked everything up, wanna keep going, retard?" isn't really an option for Oblivion. It does sound like the RAI might glitch itself to death if certain essential NPCs were mercilessly slaughtered. Though trying to keep going in a world of malfunctioning AI might be interesting in itself, I imagine there'd be thousands of inane help questions when the first console kiddy butchers a plot-essential NPC and tries to keep going, which would be pretty annoying for the support staff.

 

[Drakron]

I dont think it ruins the Radient AI that mush,likely its just screws up dialogue and quest triggers since those "essencial" NPCs might die along the path and there are quest and dialogue triggers looking for those NPC status.

 

[Revasser]

I dont think it ruins the Radient AI that mush,likely its just screws up dialogue and quest triggers since those "essencial" NPCs might die along the path and there are quest and dialogue triggers looking for those NPC status.

It really depends on how interconnected everything is. If global things are changed with the death of an NPC during a certain event, and that NPC dies early, those global whatevers may not be triggered at all, or may trigger prematurely screwing up the interaction between various non-essential NPCs and making the game generally glitchy.

I suppose it also depends on how glitch resisant the AI is. My bet is; not very.

 

[Twinfalls]

Shopkeepers will still not accept stolen goods. Luckily for compulsive stealers, the Thieves Guild has fences who have no such scruples.

Damn! How do they know it's stolen?

Easy. You use your imagination. Or must everything be explicitly acted out in graphics now - leading to features being cut out because of resource limits?

As for the whole 'you cant killZOR everyone' thing, BAH.

Whether it's forced re-load, or you can't touch them, or they get back up again, Oblivion's system is essentially the same as Gothic and Daggerfall - important quest NPCs are invincible.

So. Fucking. What?

 

[Chefe]

So now the NPCs just fall unconscious?

Why didn't you guys just do that IN THE FIRST PLACE, instead of releasing the shitty "forced-reload" idea which caused tons of arguments. Oh well, it's changed, so that's good. Nothing could drag a person out of a freeform roleplaying game more than a big box that says "You killed up teh important NPC. Reload, fuckwit, you broke the game."

It's a set in the right direction. What about any other changes?

 

[Twinfalls]

You can masturbate sheep

 

[Tintin]

Why didn't you guys just do that IN THE FIRST PLACE

It's a weighing of choices - do we go with NPC's being alive no matter the punishment you give them, or let them be killable - but make them reload since you can't continue the game at that point with them there.

 

[Gwendo]

Shopkeepers will still not accept stolen goods. Luckily for compulsive stealers, the Thieves Guild has fences who have no such scruples.

Damn! How do they know it's stolen?

Easy. You use your imagination. Or must everything be explicitly acted out in graphics now - leading to features being cut out because of resource limits?

I can't imagine why a shopkeeper would know that that dagger i'm trying to sell was stolen from X in town Y. So what I'm complaining about is their omniscience. Got that?

 

[Twinfalls]

Yes. I've got that you have no imagination. What if the shopkeeper says "hang on - I have the latest list of stolen items from the authorities, and.... this one matches item X on the list". Would that make it easier to swallow?

All I'm saying is that sometimes, systems like these call for some creative suspension of disbelief so that you can at least have the frickin system there.

 

[Atrokkus]

Now, there is a question on the "unconcious" important npcs: if you actually "kill" (knockdown) them, how do they react? As if nothing has happened? I mean, WTF? Is some fucking king going just stand up and smile to you? Isn't this knockdown stuff the same as immortality and forced reload? You attack the king, even if you are tough enough to "kill" him, he then just stands up again and fights you once more, etc etc = SAME SHIT!

Of course, it's "main plotline" and all, but since it's supposed to be a freeform game, couldn't Bethesda really made player's actions, even as reckless as killing the king, affect the world?
Just think about it: you kill a king, just for fun (you know, as always in those "killem all" tantrums), and whooops it doesn't force you to load up, and the king is sure dead. Everyone is in panic, the kingdom is in chaos. Of course, main quest is ruined, but you got the consequence of your action, an alternative ending. Yes, you lose a lot of quests that could yet come, but it's a freeform RPG, not a storydriven, right?

Now that could be a genious game-design feature. But, alas, it's just me a-dreamin'....

 

[jiujitsu]

The unconcious idea is good. It's better than the symbol above the head idea. That would be lame.

 

[Gwendo]

Yes. I've got that you have no imagination. What if the shopkeeper says "hang on - I have the latest list of stolen items from the authorities, and.... this one matches item X on the list". Would that make it easier to swallow?

No. Unless they are always up to date and have fax machines to send those lists to all shopkeepers.

Or I could have stolen it one minute ago, so the shopkeeper shouldn't have it in his black list.

Why penalize a good thief by cheating that way?

 

[OverrideB1]

The unconcious idea is good. It's better than the symbol above the head idea. That would be lame.

From what I can gather, they'll still have the floating icon over their heads. You just won't be able to get a forced reload out of "killing" them .

 

[Atrokkus]

Im telling you, it's the same stuff as immortality, just even more unnatural.

MSFD, please tell me what would happen if you "kill"/knockdown VINPC?

 

[Chefe]

Why didn't you guys just do that IN THE FIRST PLACE

It's a weighing of choices - do we go with NPC's being alive no matter the punishment you give them, or let them be killable - but make them reload since you can't continue the game at that point with them there.

Hmm, let's see...

*Bethesda sets around the board room*

Todd: "Okay, we have a few choices here for important NPCs."
Pete: "I get to play the PR guy this time! I called it first!"
Todd: "Okay, okay. But can we get on with things?"
Ken: "Yes, the choices for players killing the important NPCs. What are our choices, Todd?"
Todd: "Well, the first choice we have here is infinite health. This will make NPCs unstoppable superbeings."
Ken: "Can't have that happening."
Pete: "PR!!!"
Todd: "The second choice we have is to make them unhittable, like Daggerfall's important NPCs."
Ken: "That won't work. It will totally defeat the purpose of our new system where your weapon always hits."
Pete: "I want to do an interview!!"
Ken: "Pete, shut the fuck up."
Todd: "There are two more choices. First off, we could have a system where a vital NPC comes unconscious. A little message comes on the screen telling the player that the person has been knocked unconscious. The player leaves and comes back later to find the NPC back up again, albeit with a huge disposition drop that will require some work to get back up. This means that the effect isn't permenant, and also saves the player from accidentally attacking and having to reload and lose tons of his hard work had he not recently saved. The second choice is a box that pops up once the NPC is dead alerting the player that he or she fucked up and needs to reload a previous game."

Ken: "Well, it's obvious. We need the reload box."

Pete: "Alert the press!!!!"

 

[MrSmileyFaceDude]

The unconcious idea is good. It's better than the symbol above the head idea. That would be lame.

From what I can gather, they'll still have the floating icon over their heads. You just won't be able to get a forced reload out of "killing" them .

They never had icons floating above their heads. The reticle in the center of the screen changes depending on what you're looking at (if you're within range to activate it). If it's an NPC you can talk to, the reticle has one appearance. If it's an essential NPC you can talk to, it has a different appearance. The reticle changes appearance when you look at a door, container, or item, as well. It's very small and unobtrusive.

 

[Drakron]

And might I add ... you cannot turn it off.

 

[HardCode]

It may be small and unobrtusive, but it is too much hand-holding in my ever so humble opinion. Sure, it helps the "casual gamers" right along, but I think Beth is forgetting that there are other paying customers than casual gamers.

As a gamer of around 25 years (not age, that is gaming years), I come to expect more and more intricacies (sp? intricate) in RPG games. With the increased power of PCs, I'd rather have the CPU make use of extremely complex PC-to-world interaction, not gr@phixz0rz. I'd like less in-game help to make things unknown.

Nothing sucks more in a game than being led by the hand. I can't for the life of me understand how game designers cannot grasp that concept!?! What is the use of playing a game when the game practically plays itself? I don't want to know who the important NPCs are unless I, via my character, find out on my own! Why else bother playing? Its like watching a movie and being able to guess what happens next. It turns out to be a sucky movie.

I want games like "The Usual Suspects"! I had no idea that Spacey was Kaiser Soze until the extreme end. That movie rocked. Same with games. I don't want to know anything until I find out on my own. Keep the arrow, the changing cursors, the names over the heads, etc. They do not belong in RPGs.

 

[Chefe]

They never had icons floating above their heads. The reticle in the center of the screen changes depending on what you're looking at (if you're within range to activate it). If it's an NPC you can talk to, the reticle has one appearance. If it's an essential NPC you can talk to, it has a different appearance. The reticle changes appearance when you look at a door, container, or item, as well. It's very small and unobtrusive.

Is that like the hand that appears when you can pick stuff up? I liked that in the video. It was cool.

What's not cool is different "hands" for NPCs and Essential NPCs. If you can answer me one question, why can't we turn off the "essential NPC indicator"? Why can't we turn off the compass pointing out locations? Why will you not allow us to do this? I know Todd might be too stupid to figure out things on his own, like saying it's totally-utterly-fucking-completely-impossible to do anything without it, but we're smarter than him... at least many of us are, and we don't like being held by the hand. We like being lost, stumbling upon a ruin. We like to have a bout with an NPC, then be surprised to find out that he's only been knocked unconscious... meaning he's pretty damn important.

If you take the "unknown" factor out of an Elder Scrolls game, then it ceases to be an Elder Scrolls game. Getting lost is huge factor in these and makes up a ton of the freeform fun. At least, for the love christ, let us turn these things off so we of greater brain power can enjoy the game our way and not have to druge through the game in a manner that was ment for those of lesser intellect and those stricken with ADD.

Why?

 

[Micmu]

Exactly the same words ("small and unobtrusive") were used for the GPS compass, yet noone was really bothered by it's size or appearance in the first place.

 

[Gwendo]

Developers are most interested in fun. The casual player kills an important NPC, the most probable reaction is that he won't play the game again.

Even me, which I consider myself somewhere between a casual gamers and an hardcore gamer (more of the later), get bored and stop playing, when I get stuck in a game.

So maybe this feature would be nice, that one would be realistic, the other one would give depth, but... What will work for the average player? What's fun?

Not everyone has the time (or wants to spend that time) to invest in a game that starts to be frustating instead of fun. Not everyone is available to endure that.

But I think that it wouldn't be that complicated to make certain features as an option. They would be enabled by default, to catch the casual gamers, but there should be the option to disable certain "features", for the hardcore players.

 

[Drakron]

No, they are interested in safetly nets and mass appeal.

Oblivion appears to be done in a way its very hard to screw up the game in any way possible, no matter how retarded you are.

Oblivion is definitly a Teen game.

 

[Twinfalls]

Yes. I've got that you have no imagination. What if the shopkeeper says "hang on - I have the latest list of stolen items from the authorities, and.... this one matches item X on the list". Would that make it easier to swallow?

No. Unless they are always up to date and have fax machines to send those lists to all shopkeepers.

Which proves my point. You lack imagination. Did you play Daggerfall? Did you have a problem with the way guards 'knew' you had stolen, even though there were no guards visible at the time? Did you appreciate the clear intention of the developers that you should imagine that someone saw you, and alerted the guards?

Can you understand how that feature was there so that your sneak skill was actually relevant, and a thieving system could actually be implemented?

Why penalize a good thief by cheating that way?

This is a different argument, which has nothing to do with the use-of-imagination point I was making. The merits of this decision are a different thing - a possible answer to your question: A good thief is not penalised. A good thief will establish links with fences. A bad thief just goes along to the nearest shop to sell off his loot, which will get him in trouble sooner or later.

 

[OverrideB1]

They never had icons floating above their heads. The reticle in the center of the screen changes depending on what you're looking at (if you're within range to activate it). If it's an NPC you can talk to, the reticle has one appearance. If it's an essential NPC you can talk to, it has a different appearance. The reticle changes appearance when you look at a door, container, or item, as well. It's very small and unobtrusive.

Is that like the hand that appears when you can pick stuff up? I liked that in the video. It was cool.

What's not cool is different "hands" for NPCs and Essential NPCs. If you can answer me one question, why can't we turn off the "essential NPC indicator"? Why can't we turn off the compass pointing out locations? Why will you not allow us to do this? I know Todd might be too stupid to figure out things on his own, like saying it's totally-utterly-fucking-completely-impossible to do anything without it, but we're smarter than him... at least many of us are, and we don't like being held by the hand. We like being lost, stumbling upon a ruin. We like to have a bout with an NPC, then be surprised to find out that he's only been knocked unconscious... meaning he's pretty damn important.

If you take the "unknown" factor out of an Elder Scrolls game, then it ceases to be an Elder Scrolls game. Getting lost is huge factor in these and makes up a ton of the freeform fun. At least, for the love christ, let us turn these things off so we of greater brain power can enjoy the game our way and not have to druge through the game in a manner that was ment for those of lesser intellect and those stricken with ADD.

Why?

Okay, so there's no floating icon and there's a change of reticule instead (see, 1 day and I already know more than I did at the other place). But, as Chefe says, it's still hand-holding for the RPG-newbie and the terminally bewildered. As I made abundantly clear, I have zero problem with that: you want to attract a larger proportion of the non-RPG market to play your game. Very laudible as people who've never played an RPG might find a whole new genre they can enjoy instead of these interminable FPS and beat 'em ups.

But the people who've been playing RPGs for years don't need that level of hand-holding and most certainly don't want it. Yet you (not you personally MSFD, but you, the company) are forcing it upon them by not having an option to turn off some of the functionality of the GPS-compass.

I want the possibility of getting lost and stumbling on some cool location ~ without some compass pointing out to me that there a place to loot behind the bushes on the left. And yes, I know I can switch the GPS to an old quest: doesn't seem to stop it pointing out just about everything else to me though.