Oblivion dialogue

[Vault Dweller]

It seems it even has politics, and nobles competing for power.

Oh, sure, just like the "Great" Houses in Morrowind. Boy, I really liked how their competition affected the PC's world as he progressed. Nothing like being the leader of House Hlaalu and going to a Telvanni stronghold to buy spells and barter. Massive cross-interest roleplaying there

I have no faith that anything in Oblivion will be better for an RPG than that which was in Morrowind. In fact, the evidence shows it will be much worse.

My sentiments exactly.

 

[Lumpy]

It seems it even has politics, and nobles competing for power.

Oh, sure, just like the "Great" Houses in Morrowind. Boy, I really liked how their competition affected the PC's world as he progressed. Nothing like being the leader of House Hlaalu and going to a Telvanni stronghold to buy spells and barter. Massive cross-interest roleplaying there

I have no faith that anything in Oblivion will be better for an RPG than that which was in Morrowind. In fact, the evidence shows it will be much worse.

Oh really? Deeper NPCs, factions that mean more than quest givers, deeper quests, more powerful magic are much worse? Interesting view.

It's so nice to be young and believe every word developers say. Who needs facts? The developers said that quests are deeper, NPCs are better, factions are wider, dialogues trees are taller, etc. The developers can't lie because they are adults!

Grow up, Lumpy.

Sure they can lie. But why assume they are lying? Why would they cut down the number of factions if not to make the remaining ones better?

 

[Atrokkus]

In fact, the evidence shows it will be much worse.

Again, we'll see.
But if what you think is true, then I won't even try it i guess.

WHAT can be worse than Morrowind, RPG-wise?

 

[Sisay]

In fact, the evidence shows it will be much worse.

Again, we'll see.
But if what you think is true, then I won't even try it i guess.

WHAT can be worse than Morrowind, RPG-wise?

No inter-faction conflict what-so-ever? It wasn't exactly one of the strong points of Morrowind but I really fail to see how Oblivion factions are going to be anything more than quest-dispensers. But of course the quests, NPCs and factions will be much deeper, Bethesda says so.

 

[Lumpy]

In fact, the evidence shows it will be much worse.

Again, we'll see.
But if what you think is true, then I won't even try it i guess.

WHAT can be worse than Morrowind, RPG-wise?

No inter-faction conflict what-so-ever? It wasn't exactly one of the strong points of Morrowind but I really fail to see how Oblivion factions are going to be anything more than quest-dispensers. But of course the quests, NPCs and factions will be much deeper, Bethesda says so.

What kind of conflict would you like? I don't see how Oblivion's factions could interact with each other. Besides, maybe the Fighters Guild, and the Thieves guild.

 

[Atrokkus]

WEll, fuck factions, I just want to see real, live conversations, that make sense, that force player to think over the answer, not just because his stats will depend on that, but the concience of the character he is roleplaying. Or just a good chat, for fuck's sake. You know, just to form some relationship with the NPCs. They have NPC-reaction/reputation system, but they don't really provide options of increasing/decreasing it properly. Talk rude to the npc, for instance, and stuff like that.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Sure they can lie. But why assume they are lying? Why would they cut down the number of factions if not to make the remaining ones better?

Why would they cut crossbows? To make bows better or reduce the amount of work? Why did they merge daggers and swords? Because they belong together? Etc.

What answer do you expect for them? "We think that simple but visually awesome games sell more?" Won't fly. "We have less stuff but it's deeper, wider, taller; trust us!" Sounds about right and the best part - it works. You are a living proof.

Look at DF, look at MW, see the trend. Look at OB, notice the familiar trend. What more do you need to see? Do you think that MW's Mage Guild's quests were awesome and intricate? Well, MSFD sure thought so and shared that opinion with naive public before the game was released. Etc.

 

[Elwro]

Morrowind had dialogue trees? Oh you mean those two choices questions? They're more like bushes than trees.

You're right. But in this thread you've said "It's not much, but at least we know it's there." My belief is "It's not much and we don't know if there's any more of it."

 

[Chefe]

I'm with Lumpy. You all suck ass and don't know what ur talking about. Oblivion rocks. The vidoes were awesome. This game is giong 2 be gr8t. The devz have sayd so and y would they lie? they wouldn't. so fuck off!! the dialogue is good n kool an it works. u git choizes 4 ur guy n hve fn. t3h dvs dciseons r gud n 4 gme n it b awsm tus m3

 

[spacemoose]

I want to see a screenshot with more than 2 dialogue options ( not including accept quest / decline quest ). But then again, Elder Scroll games NEVER had dialogue trees, why are we expecting them now?

 

[Micmu]

Sure they can lie. But why assume they are lying? Why would they cut down the number of factions if not to make the remaining ones better?

http://www.google.com/search?q=define:"development+cycle"
http://www.google.com/search?q=define:"budget"

 

[Drakron]

... But then again, Elder Scroll games NEVER had dialogue trees, why are we expecting them now?

Because of KotOR.

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

I want to see a screenshot with more than 2 dialogue options ( not including accept quest / decline quest ). But then again, Elder Scroll games NEVER had dialogue trees, why are we expecting them now?

While we haven't seen such screens, someone who has played the game at one of the public showings confirmed that there usually is more than one choice. That does not necessarily mean dialogue tree, though - it could just as well be wikipedia topics.

 

[DarkUnderlord]

The Codex vs Lumpy. Round One.

 

[Lost Spline]

Look at DF, look at MW, see the trend. Look at OB, notice the familiar trend. What more do you need to see?

There are two major flaws with your argument:
1) we can't look at Oblivion as you suggest
2) the trend is a fallacy (i.e., slippery slope fallacy)

1) It is impossible to judge the gameplay of a game before the game has been played. Can you develop a criticism of a movie by watching the trailer, looking at some stills, and reading previews wrote by people who saw only a small section of it?

2) The trend you mention is an example of a slippery slope argument (i.e., X has occurred therefore Y will inevitably occur). Without evidence to show the causal connection between changes from DF -> MW and changes from MW -> OB, the argument is a fallacy. In fact, there is evidence to disprove this connection. The developers claim that each game in the series is started from scratch which implies no trend and the changes from Arena to DF are not supportive of the trend.

To put it simply, your argument is marred by the lack of a finished game to view and the lack of a reason for why a "dumbing down" from DF to MW implies a "dumbing down" from MW to OB.

 

[Zomg]

Good lord, the terms "slippery slope" and "ad hominem" have suffered horrible abuse at the hands of the internet.

 

[Chefe]

There are two major flaws with your argument:
1) we can't look at Oblivion as you suggest
2) the trend is a fallacy (i.e., slippery slope fallacy)

1) It is impossible to judge the gameplay of a game before the game has been played. Can you develop a criticism of a movie by watching the trailer, looking at some stills, and reading previews wrote by people who saw only a small section of it?

2) The trend you mention is an example of a slippery slope argument (i.e., X has occurred therefore Y will inevitably occur). Without evidence to show the causal connection between changes from DF -> MW and changes from MW -> OB, the argument is a fallacy. In fact, there is evidence to disprove this connection. The developers claim that each game in the series is started from scratch which implies no trend and the changes from Arena to DF are not supportive of the trend.

To put it simply, your argument is marred by the lack of a finished game to view and the lack of a reason for why a "dumbing down" from DF to MW implies a "dumbing down" from MW to OB.

Teh uncanny intelligshunce!

 

[Drakron]

And goes against the Codex way of argument ...

Do not attack the argument, attack the user (since if they stupid enough to make a argument they sould be branded as such).

And for stupid statements, Lost Spline used the "You have not played the game !!!" that is a rather weak argument (and not common used on the Codex because we are usually smarter then that), if we can make a educated guess from movie trailers about the quality of the movie we can also make a educated guess from a game trailer/demo/screenshoots, considering the main reason to show a trailer/screenshoots is to make people buy the game we will see the best/strong points of the game on then and the worst/weak points will be removed of the developers point of view.

What Oblivion so far been about was graphics and Radiant AI were all coments about dialogue been vague beyond the "voice acting" (sorry but saying "they are improved" says nothing, its subjective) and that indicates dialogue is a weak point of the game in the developers, publishers and markerting eyes.

And the game have been dumbed down ... we got forced reload if we kill a plot critical NPC, we get a quest compass, we get NPC indicators (dont kill this guy or you have to reload), we get less skills to select, less fractions to join (and no fraction fighting), USELESS mounts (ridding just makes traveling faster and there is no ridding skill, no mounted combat or even the ability to use mounts to carry objects) ... the list goes on.

What are improvements to the series beyond the graphics and NPC AI?

Its streamlined design a better thing ... making character building easier because instead of having to make a build directed towards the use of certain weapons/amor/spells you dont have to worry about it now?

You been using a dagger for the last 10 levels and found a claymore of doom and there is NO GOD DAMN DIFERENCE BECAUSE BOTH USE THE SAME SKILL?

That makes it easier now ... not being "penalized" over having used a weapon type and finding a superior weapon that is of a diferent type ... next we get every weapon thrown into the "melee" skill so you dont have to worry about using a sword and then finding a axe that have better stats.

That "game design" is known as dumbing down.

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

The forced reload thing is no longer in - essential NPC's go unconscious instead of dying.
Improvements: I still believe physics,actual traps, scheduled NPC's, guild priviledges, even combat-less mounts ARE improvements. And I do have some hopes that they make good on their promise of better deigned quests.

As for trends, I don't think all the trend from MW to DF is bad either. I made my case many times already - suffice to say, I think DF's generic aproach was a dead end in some ways, and I think MW did well to break out of it.

Ah, don't you love arguments going in circles!

 

[Lost Spline]

And goes against the Codex way of argument ...

Do not attack the argument, attack the user.

I'm sorry for going against tradition. I soon will be indoctrinated into the codex cult....

And for stupid statements, Lost Spline used the "You have not played the game !!!" that is a rather weak argument (and not common used on the Codex because we are usually smarter then that), if we can make a educated guess from movie trailers about the quality of the movie we can also make a educated guess from a game trailer/demo/screenshoots, considering the main reason to show a trailer/screenshoots is to make people buy the game we will see the best/strong points of the game on then and the worst/weak points will be removed of the developers point of view.

Movie trailers, imho, are never good indicators of the quality of a movie. Can you judge the quality of the dialogue or plot from a trailer?

On your point that they make a trailer to display the best/strong points, I disagree. On the contrary, the market for the trailer may be larger than and different from the market for the game/movie. The trailer will display the points with the most broad appeal whereas the game/movie may have stronger points that are less popular.

From a movie example, an early trailer for Vanilla Sky gave me the impression that the movie would be action-packed but the movie is much more a cerebral journey. By the way, Abre Los Ojos is better than Vanilla Sky.

What Oblivion so far been about was graphics and Radiant AI were all coments about dialogue been vague beyond the "voice acting" (sorry but saying "they are improved" says nothing, its subjective) and that indicates dialogue is a weak point of the game in the developers, publishers and markerting eyes.

And the game have been dumbed down ... we got forced reload if we kill a plot critical NPC, we get a quest compass, we get NPC indicators (dont kill this guy or you have to reload), we get less skills to select, less fractions to join (and no fraction fighting), USELESS mounts (ridding just makes traveling faster and there is no ridding skill, no mounted combat or even the ability to use mounts to carry objects) ... the list goes on.

What are improvements to the series beyond the graphics and NPC AI?

Some Improvements (from MW):

• yield in combat
  poison weapons
  boast, joke, and bully NPCs
  reanimate NPCs
  escape from jail
  infamy is separate from bounty
  purchase homes instead of steal/build
  join an "evil" faction (Dark Brotherhood)
  bet on arena fights
  fight in "big" battles
  own pets

Until I play the game, I cannot reliably determine if the gameplay is good or not. Some are fanatics (=fans) claiming OB will be a good rpg while others are anti-fans claiming OB will be dumbed down. At the moment, I'm an agnostic with regard to Oblivion (i.e., I claim that it is impossible to know, so I don't know).

Its streamlined design a better thing ... making character building easier because instead of having to make a build directed towards the use of certain weapons/amor/spells you dont have to worry about it now?

To a certain extent, streamlined is good. The question is when does it go too far?

You been using a dagger for the last 10 levels and found a claymore of doom and there is NO GOD DAMN DIFERENCE BECAUSE BOTH USE THE SAME SKILL?

That makes it easier now ... not being "penalized" over having used a weapon type and finding a superior weapon that is of a diferent type ... next we get every weapon thrown into the "melee" skill so you dont have to worry about using a sword and then finding a axe that have better stats.

That argument is fallacious (is that a good enough attack against a person?)

It is a slippery slope fallacy (combined with a strawman) :
1) streamlining by combining a few melee skills
2) streamlining by combining all melee skills will be next (slippery slope)
3) one "melee" skill is wrong
4) streamlining is wrong (strawman)

 

[Chefe]

I'm sorry for going against tradition. I soon will be indoctrinated into the codex cult....

Your soul, up front. Bitch.

Movie trailers, imho, are never good indicators of the quality of a movie. Can you judge the quality of the dialogue or plot from a trailer?

Yes. Look at Stealth.

The trailer will display the points with the most broad appeal

Like enemies ice-skating? :

Abre Los Ojos

Your funny spanish words won't fool me, pest!

Some Improvements (from MW):

• 1. yield in combat
  2. poison weapons
  3. boast, joke, and bully NPCs
  4. reanimate NPCs
  5. escape from jail
  6. infamy is separate from bounty
  7. purchase homes instead of steal/build
  8. join an "evil" faction (Dark Brotherhood)
  9. bet on arena fights
  10. fight in "big" battles
  11. own pets

1. I bet it's going to be half-assed like everything else bethesda does. Baddie: "I yield!" You: "Yes/No" choose "Yes". Baddie gets up and walks away, and will talk to you normal like nothing happened.
2. BIG FUCKING DEAL. Really, a blind monkey with his hand up his ass could implement poisoning of weapons.
3. Fable already did this.
4. Someone already made a morrowind mod that did this. Yawn.
5. HOLY SHIT NO WAY!!!??? TEH INNOVASHUN!
6. That must have been super dooper tough to do! Oh man, such complexity! I can't even begin to FATHOM the programming shiznit that was needed to do that! Wow!
7. Fable, Daggerfall, others I'm sure but I can't remember.
8. TEH EVIL BADGUY!!111111111111oneoneone KILL EVERY1!!!
9. WOW! AMAZING! THIS IS GONNA BE TEH BEST GAME EVAR!!!1
10. Hmmm... big battles. Hmm... bethesda. Hmm... 5 - 7 guys on the field? Hmmm... yes.
11. NO ONE HAS EVAR DONE THIS BEFORE!! WOW! THANK U BETHESDA 4 TEH FURRIES!

Until I play the game, I cannot reliably determine if the gameplay is good or not. Some are fanatics (=fans) claiming OB will be a good rpg while others are anti-fans claiming OB will be dumbed down. At the moment, I'm an agnostic with regard to Oblivion (i.e., I claim that it is impossible to know, so I don't know).

Wow. Y u use big words like antagonistic, guy? I don't know those words, so speak more clear plz! And thnk u for telling what fans and anti fans mean and what they think b/c I dunno that stuff. I am new, plz don't flame!.

To a certain extent, streamlined is good. The question is when does it go too far?

No, the question is can you get any dumber?

That argument is fallacious (is that a good enough attack against a person?)

I believe the word you were looking for is "phallus". The "PH" makes the sound of an "F".

It is a slippery slope fallacy (combined with a strawman) :
1) streamlining by combining a few melee skills
2) streamlining by combining all melee skills will be next (slippery slope)
3) one "melee" skill is wrong
4) streamlining is wrong (strawman)

Teh slippery! Sliptastic! Sliptacular! Slipabulous!

Strawman? What's a strawman? explain plz, guy.

 

[Lost Spline]

1. I bet it's going to be half-assed like everything else bethesda does. Baddie: "I yield!" You: "Yes/No" choose "Yes". Baddie gets up and walks away, and will talk to you normal like nothing happened.
2. BIG FUCKING DEAL. Really, a blind monkey with his hand up his ass could implement poisoning of weapons.
3. Fable already did this.
4. Someone already made a morrowind mod that did this. Yawn.
5. HOLY SHIT NO WAY!!!??? TEH INNOVASHUN!
6. That must have been super dooper tough to do! Oh man, such complexity! I can't even begin to FATHOM the programming shiznit that was needed to do that! Wow!
7. Fable, Daggerfall, others I'm sure but I can't remember.
8. TEH EVIL BADGUY!!111111111111oneoneone KILL EVERY1!!!
9. WOW! AMAZING! THIS IS GONNA BE TEH BEST GAME EVAR!!!1
10. Hmmm... big battles. Hmm... bethesda. Hmm... 5 - 7 guys on the field? Hmmm... yes.
11. NO ONE HAS EVAR DONE THIS BEFORE!! WOW! THANK U BETHESDA 4 TEH FURRIES!

I didn't say the improvements were groundbreaking or exciting but that there were improvements besides graphics and AI.

No, the question is can you get any dumber?

I probably could but would that be enjoyable? I like playing devil's advocate, it is more enjoyable than playing the role of a retard. On the other hand, in Arcanum, it is very enjoyable playing mentally deficient....

I believe the word you were looking for is "phallus". The "PH" makes the sound of an "F".

On an interesting note, I wrote a fantasic paper on the phallic imagery in the Stepford Wives for a science fiction movie class.

Teh slippery! Sliptastic! Sliptacular! Slipabulous!

Strawman? What's a strawman? explain plz, guy.

No comment.

 

[Dhruin]

Frankly, we just haven't seen enough but that E3 video was pretty discouraging. When the PC goes up to that woman's room (and let's forget the whole Radiant AI-setting-the-dog-on-fire argument), she says (paraphrasing - been a while) "wanna stay the night?", he says "hell no!", she says "no need to be so rude" and the only response (as best I can remember) is "Just kidding".

Maybe it's just an early demo, or perhaps I didn't watch closely but that's pretty disappointing stuff.

 

[Stella Brando]

Most of the info from the devs has expressed their desire not to fix Morrowind, but to simply deliver more Morrowind - but this time with attractive graphics and the less popular options removed. Compare the series growth between Daggerfall and Oblivion to that between GTA3 and San Andreas.

 

[Lumpy]

Frankly, we just haven't seen enough but that E3 video was pretty discouraging. When the PC goes up to that woman's room (and let's forget the whole Radiant AI-setting-the-dog-on-fire argument), she says (paraphrasing - been a while) "wanna stay the night?", he says "hell no!", she says "no need to be so rude" and the only response (as best I can remember) is "Just kidding".

Maybe it's just an early demo, or perhaps I didn't watch closely but that's pretty disappointing stuff.

Yes, that's because she tells you to leave. What else could you do besides leaving and saying "I'm kidding?"

And about the lying part: I believe you all agree that Morrowind had too many factions, and most of them sucked. And you all agree that they deserved to be lessened and be made better.

So, Bethesda says "Yeah, we have less factons. but the remaining ones are great." You say: "It has less factions? It sucks. They are better? LI3111!1one!!1"

So any "quality over quantity" move from Bethesda's part will be a step down in your view, because there is no way of seeing the quality.

Would you like them to release a complete walkthrough for you to see whether the quests have been improved?