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OBLIVION DELAYED AGAIN

Thrawn05

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Stark said:
It is not intended to create emergent gameplay, expected or unexpected otherwise. Read what MFSD wrote and you'll get the idea.

Then what the hell did I just quote?!? Perhaps you should reread his quotes.

In anycase back to my original point: there's no indication RAI is the reason Oblivion is delayed. There's every indication that performance issue is delaying Oblivion.

Do you have prove that RAI is NOT the reason? If OB is based on the game engine that ran MW, then there isn't much they can do with performance anyway. You'll still need a 3GHz duel core to run it on minimal settings. :P
 

Stark

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Thrawn05 said:
MSFD said:
It's designed to make things easier for OUR designers. They can very quickly create complex behaviors for the NPCs and tie those behaviors to the quests WITHOUT writing scripts for the behaviors.

yup. I did read MFSD's post. See, it's intended to ease designer's task in scripting (though not in the traditional sense of the word "script"). Not to create emergent gameplay. Exactly as i said, actually.

MSFD said:
Read a book on AI, and you'll find things very similar to what we're doing. The reason it's AI and not scripting is because it uses goals and rules to determine how something is going to be accomplished. The designer establishes the goals, sets parameters (such as responsibility, aggression, confidence) on the actors, and leaves it up to the rules that have been established in the code to determine how the behavior plays out. It is most definitely artificial intelligence in the academic sense of the word. It's not a neural net -- NPCs don't learn -- but that's not the all-encompassing definition of the field of artificial intelligence anyway.

I can apprieciate the last bit from MFSD. I've taken several modules on AI in post-grad studies (expert systems, constraint programming and ANN), and I believe I apprieciate what MFSD is trying to get across. Whenever people throw the word "AI" around layman get unrealistic expectations: My prof used to say AI is a very broad field of studies and is a general, ill-defined term for a bunch of studies people have not figured out the proper name for.

In other words there's nothing magical when you associate the term "AI" to the RAI. RAI is just a fancier way for scripters. It would not allow emergent gameplay, except in very limited and restricted form.
 

spacemoose

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I agree with you that RAI has a bunch of 'module' behaviors that the npcs do depending on their condition/weights. So there can be no novel behaviors expected from them.

However what is unexpected is when they decide to go do a certain module - returning to the skooma addicts who kill the vendor. This is undesired behavior which has to be prevented and so the RAI package of these characters has to be tweaked. I have no idea how varied these behavior modules are, but stealing items or attacking other npcs for items through the RAI can break the game in spectacular ways as I'm sure you can imagine. I really don't know how to explain it any simpler than that.

Considering that a whole lot (if not all) npcs have RAI, it is very probable that the devs are busy making sure they don't go kill each other before the player can get to them and don't steal quest specific items.
 

Xi

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If you are going to bash RAI, at least site a game that has done it better. What game has better AI? From what I can remember AI has always been lacking and has never been done right in a video game, ever.

If anything it's nice to see them drive AI in the right direction, it's a huge leap from previous Elder Scrolls games. I guess I just don't understand the complaints about it? Hrmmm...


Oh, and the game hasn't been delayed again. A gold statement is expected very soon.
 

OverrideB1

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It's not so much that there's a problem with RAI, it's just the over-hyped claims for what it will do (mostly made, I admit, by hyper-active brain-dead morons at the ESF). At a fundamental level, RAI is nothing more than a series of IF/THEN statements with a whole bunch of pre-scripted "behaviour-patterns" that are called as when certain criterea are met. While it is a step up from the inert NPCs of Morrowind, it certainly isn't anything jaw-droppingly, pants-wettingly wonderful.

We know, from past Dev comments, that there have been problems with RAI-controlled behaviour in the past. It's not unreasonable to assume that there are still a few... oddities to be ironed out. Whether RAI will be the dog's dangly-bits or a steaming pile of crap (or somewhere in the middle, which is where my money is) remains to be seen.

As for any possible delay, given the general level of Codex antipathy to the release of the Toddmeister's latest brainchild, I wonder why anyone would think we cared?
 

Section8

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The problem I see with Radiant AI, is that it's a system that is best employed to create emergent behaviours and situations, but it's been shoehorned into a game that is very script reliant. For instance, the very notion that quests can't be failed flies completely against emergent behaviour, because of the sheer number of enforced conditions that have to be accounted for in order to maintain the integrity of very limited quest scripts.

And really, I find it completely baffling that Bethesda seem halfway enamoured by a "freeform sandbox" world, but just as determined to fill that world with a bunch of shitty narratives and linear quest strings, therefore completely stifling freedom in favour of some half-arsed wannabe-writer's cliched high-fantasy epic.
 

Klinn

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Section8 said:
And really, I find it completely baffling that Bethesda seem halfway enamoured by a "freeform sandbox" world, but just as determined to fill that world with a bunch of shitty narratives and linear quest strings, therefore completely stifling freedom in favour of some half-arsed wannabe-writer's cliched high-fantasy epic.
Heh - trying to do it all, despite the inherent conflict between a freeform system and a linear narrative. Chris Crawford’s book “On Interactive Storytelling” has some interesting thoughts on trying to resolve that conflict.

Anyway... From what I’ve read about the RadiantAI system I wouldn’t call it ‘scripted’ in the usual sense. Not unless one thinks something like Sim City is ‘scripted’, rather than a modeled system.

While it’s possible to derive unexpected and seemly complex behaviour from relatively simple systems, I wonder if character AI can fall prey to the Uncanny Valley theory? That is, as it gets closer to what we expect of human behaviour, the little lapses stand out more and make us dislike or feel unsettled about the characters.

One thing that makes me worry is that apparently the NPCs’ AI is somehow switched off or reduced when the player gets a certain distance (number of cells) away. Understandable from a performance point of view, but this might have weird side effects. Switching on a complex set of behaviours after a long absence and expecting them to pick up again as if nothing had happened, well, that sounds optimistic. To give a silly example, the player goes back to a city after being away for a few days - do the NPCs all ‘wake up’ and simultaneously think ‘Geez, I haven’t eaten for days” triggering a mass stampede to the local publican’s establishment? No doubt it may be easy to avoid that particular situation, but maybe there will be more subtle cases that will turn out to be just as annoying.
 

OverrideB1

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Klinn said:
Anyway... From what I’ve read about the RadiantAI system I wouldn’t call it ‘scripted’ in the usual sense. Not unless one thinks something like Sim City is ‘scripted’, rather than a modeled system..

It pretty much depends on how fundamental a level you want to look at RAI. You have a set of pre-scripted "modules" that say (for example) Do you possess any food items? If no, are there any food items in your immediate vicinity that you own? If no... and so on - that would be called when the IF/THEN process in the "AI" returns a true value for "IF you are hungry THEN..."

Psuedo-emergent behaviour can arise if there are unexpected interactions between processes, true emergent behaviour (like a real A.I.) is a way off yet. From what the devs have said, I guess there were rather more unexpected interactions than they'd anticipated - hence the dumbing down of the "AI" in RAI that they did some while back.

It is possible that some of the delay past the absolutely and positive "Holidays 2005" release date has been caused by more of this unexpected interaction. But I really don't expect one of the devs to step forward and say "well, RAI broke like a china plate dropped from a high building when we did this..." Mainly because RAI is cool and we should trust them. Implicitely.

The real proof of the pudding will come when RAI is in the wild and gamers throw monkey-wrenches into the works - that's when we see just how robust RAI actually is. Because I'm pretty damn' certain that - no matter how well you idiot-proof a system, there's always a bigger idiot out there who can, and will, break it in ways you never anticipated.
 

Thrawn05

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Stark said:
yup. I did read MFSD's post. See, it's intended to ease designer's task in scripting (though not in the traditional sense of the word "script"). Not to create emergent gameplay. Exactly as i said, actually.

You're back beddling there. Just a few post ago, you said it was scripted, now you are saying it's not? Which is it?

Oh and you better find a new ComSci school, your proff sounds like an idiot. Go find one from russia, they'll whip you into making AI within your first semister!
 

Thrawn05

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OverrideB1 said:
At a fundamental level, RAI is nothing more than a series of IF/THEN statements with a whole bunch of pre-scripted "behaviour-patterns" that are called as when certain criterea are met.

Every software is just IF/THEN. Else there would be no computers.
 

OverrideB1

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And that would kind of be my point Thrawn.

You see, they can call it an "Artificial Intelligence" (Radient or otherwise) or they can call it "Cottage Cheese" - it makes no nevermind. It's still a big list of IF/THEN statements that call pre-scripted modules. It may be written in some fancy "scripting" language Bethesda have developed but it could just as easily have been written in BASIC, PASCAL, COBOL, or C+

Even the "independant" schedules they're boasting about are simple IF/THEN statements: IF game_time=X THEN... with a pre-defined set of parameters passed to the modules to give the semblance of random behaviour.

It is, in short, a glorified scheduling programme with a few tweaks - not the all-singing, all-dancing "real-life simulatorâ„¢" that the fanboys over at the ESF are making it out to be. Even the "emergent" behaviour (junkies killing the pusher to get a fix) is the bottom line of a series of If/THEN statements...

Somehow I don't think that Bethesda have created their own version of Skynet...
 

kingcomrade

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But the lady set her dog on fire! Stop hating on Bethsda. U r all juts mad cuz there making Fallout 3 for teh 21st century not the 19th or whatever u guys r frum lol
 

Stella Brando

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But ancient people were cooler than we are - just look at Genghiz Khan or Conan, for example. Also, they had more impressive gods - no magical peace carpenters that probably watch Oprah.
 

kingcomrade

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RUMSFELD IS COOL

1133138705076.jpg

Neither of those bitches were cooler than Donald Rumsfeld. Rummy kicks ass.
 

galsiah

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OverrideB1:
Yes, RAI isn't magic, it isn't new, and it follows the same logical steps as any computer program - "intelligent" or otherwise. It still isn't scripted in the sense that the term is used in game AI. Any useful division of AI into scripted and non-scripted techniques would put RAI in the non-scripted.
It doesn't directly use If ... Then ...
but rather something like:
Code:
updateDesires()  //(for food, rest, gold, not being hurt...).
forEach possibleAction
     forEach desire
          actionUtility += ( desireLevel * actionContributionToThisDesire )

perform action with maximum actionUtility
That would be a very crude method to calculate a fairly good action. Hopefully RAI is a bit more complex than that (and more efficient). Clearly the updateDesires() function would need to be reasonably complex too: e.g. desire for food should increase dramatically when the NPC is near to starving. I imagine RAI also involves some randomness.

The above can be broken down into simple If ... Then ... statements (as can any computer program), but that is not how it is written. Calling something "scripted" means that it acts like a directed script - the programmer tells that NPC what to do specifically, under specific circumstances. With RAI, the programmer doesn't have such tight control. He instead gives the NPC a set of desires, a set of actions, then allows it to do as it pleases. The same could be achieved either way, but it's much easier to achieve higher levels of versatility and a wider array of possibilities with the non-scripted approach.

RAI is not new, though it is new to TES. It has certainly been overhyped, but it's still a big step forward.

Klinn said:
One thing that makes me worry is that apparently the NPCs’ AI is somehow switched off or reduced when the player gets a certain distance (number of cells) away.
I don't think the possibilities are reduced (mostly), just the level of detail.
For instance if an NPC feels hungry and is close to the player, he'll probably get up, walk to where he can find food - possibly getting input on the way / being delayed etc. -, then get some food (if he can). If the same NPC is in the same situation, but the player is two cells away, the game might not bother getting the NPC to walk - he might just get teleported to his destination. If the player is the other side of the game world, the NPC probably won't even teleport - it'll just be assumed that he went to get food and came back.

The effects of the processes should be about the same - they're just carried out in a simpler way. They probably won't be exactly the same, e.g. the teleporting NPC can't get attacked on the way to buy food. The economy might also behave slightly differently - if the player is the other side of the game world, it's unlikely that every NPC purchase / sale is tracked (though it might be - I'm guessing), rather each NPC is probably assumed to spend X per day on food etc., and each merchant to sell Y amount of goods, making Z gold... This won't be completely accurate, but it won't really matter.

They might go further than this though - there's been a lot of talk about it being undesirable for important events to occur without the player's presence (spontaneous battles etc.). It is possible, therefore, that NPCs might have a reduced set of possible actions when a long way away from the player - e.g. perhaps it is not possible for them to attack each other when a long distance away.
The low detail processes above probably don't include the possibility of NPC fights / starvation etc.
 

Drain

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By the way, did devs say anything about effects of starvation on NPCs. Are there any?
 

Stark

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Thrawn05 said:
You're back beddling there. Just a few post ago, you said it was scripted, now you are saying it's not? Which is it?

not backpaddeling. you need to learn to read better:

my own quote:
let's moderate the expectation of RAI. its just a fancier way of scripting.

See, it's intended to ease designer's task in scripting (though not in the traditional sense of the word "script").

how are these 2 quotes lead you to think i am back peddling?

Thrawn05 said:
Oh and you better find a new ComSci school, your proff sounds like an idiot.

pray tell how he sounds like an idiot? anything that you disagree with? You're still making the mistake of making an assertion without anything to back up with. [/code]
 

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