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KickStarter Mechajammer (formerly Copper Dreams) - cyberpunk RPG from Whalenought Studios

Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
Oh, and you keep confusing saving with suspending.
Saving & quitting AKA suspending has nothing to do with this argument.
 

Ladonna

Arcane
Joined
Aug 27, 2006
Messages
10,958
so why not just automatically deduct the resources from the player if they have them and remove the trap altogether?

Some games do this (remove trap spell), some games also require finding the trap through skill or magic. Others allow automatically removing the trap if the skill or item is present, others have an RNG system involved as well. It all depends which system is used.
 

Ladonna

Arcane
Joined
Aug 27, 2006
Messages
10,958
Oh, and you keep confusing saving with suspending.
Saving & quitting AKA suspending has nothing to do with this argument.

Probably because I have never been someone that saves after every step. Hence why I don't need an automated nanny to make me play a game a certain way.
 

Dhaze

Cipher
Joined
Apr 1, 2022
Messages
527
Location
Belgium
What you said is 100% correct. But even if there were no bugs, they didn't make the kind of game that works with a limited save system. Limited saves work best with straightforward, combat oriented games. Here's a dungeon: Fight your way through it. In proper RPGs, it only makes sense as an option for people who have already completed the game, probably more than once, and have extensive meta knowledge.

I don't know. I agree that such a system works best with straightforward, combat oriented games, but for me at least it also works well with more traditional cRPGs.

When I was a kid I played through every RPG without reloading (aside of course for when I died), because it simply made sense to do so. For me, they were great adventures, and I didn't even realise I could simply reload after every minute failure. And as it makes for extremely memorable moments, to this day I still play this way, only reloading when I've actually died.

As a boy of ten, being captured by the Illithids south of Ust Natha was horrible; I didn't understand half of Baldur's Gate 2 mechanics and escaping the Illithids was a massive struggle. Fun fact: I've always systematically named my save files 'Save 1', 'Save 2', etc, but when I emerged from the Underdark for the first time, it was such a relief I named that save "Finally out!"

Likewise, when I played Underrail and entered the institute for the first time, I failed the interview and thus ended up locked in with every tchortist hostile to me. I only realised some three hours later there was no way out, and while I could easily have reloaded a save made prior to entering the Institute, I chose to forge on to the very end.

Obviously Baldur's Gate 2 and Underrail were not designed with, in mind, a limited save system, but playing them as if they were is a blast.


As an aside, I would bet the developers only played this game in sections using cheats. I can't imagine they did even one start to finish playthrough considering the state of the game.

That's exactly what I was thinking while playing. So many things make sense when you consider things under that angle. So many bugs and problems become apparent only when you play normally, for rather long period of times.

*walk around trap*

Get rid of this.
*quicksave*
*walk into trap*
*quickload*
*disarm trap*

how do you fix this

You don't. You ignore it. Seriously. People who play RPGs by reloading at every failed check, at every pebble on the road, should be wholly ignored when designing a game. If they display less will and self-control than a three-year-old, then treat them like a three-year-old, i.e. not your target demographic.

You don't need that save system you envision. You need the concept and ideas behind that save system. Then, let people decide when to save, because we're grown-ups.
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
You don't. You ignore it.
Should gamedevs also add a godmode option and encourage people to use it too?
Because that's what savescumming is, one of the most powerful cheats a developer can give you.
Then, let people decide when to save, because we're grown-ups.
Applies exactly to what I said above.
Add all the cheats you can think of, if anyone complains tell them to stop ruining other people's fun.
 

Ladonna

Arcane
Joined
Aug 27, 2006
Messages
10,958
You don't. You ignore it. Seriously. People who play RPGs by reloading at every failed check, at every pebble in the road, should be wholly ignored when designing a game. If they display less will and self-control than a three year old, then treat them like a three year old, i.e. not your target demographic.

This. Who gives a fuck about these retards that do this, unless the person getting worried cannot stop themselves from doing it if it is there, eh rusty_shackleford ?

This reminds me when I started playing Europa Universalis 1 (or 2, cannot remember now) and I was having some difficulty playing with England. I couldn't keep up with France, and stopping revolutions, etc. I asked what to do on the forum and someone said "oh you shouldn't be in that predicament by that year, you have to restart" fuck that. I kept on going, managed to stabilize things, got France off my back by giving up the lands I had there, sent my guys off to explore the seas to the west and started colonies. Sure, not everything turned out how I wanted, but I cannot imagine just restarting games until everything went perfectly. Boring.
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
You don't. You ignore it. Seriously. People who play RPGs by reloading at every failed check, at every pebble in the road, should be wholly ignored when designing a game. If they display less will and self-control than a three year old, then treat them like a three year old, i.e. not your target demographic.

This. Who gives a fuck about these retards that do this, unless the person getting worried cannot stop themselves from doing it if it is there, eh rusty_shackleford ?

This reminds me when I started playing Europa Universalis 1 (or 2, cannot remember now) and I was having some difficulty playing with England. I couldn't keep up with France, and stopping revolutions, etc. I asked what to do on the forum and someone said "oh you shouldn't be in that predicament by that year, you have to restart" fuck that. I kept on going, managed to stabilize things, got France off my back by giving up the lands I had there, sent my guys off to explore the seas to the west and started colonies. Sure, not everything turned out how I wanted, but I cannot imagine just restarting games until everything went perfectly. Boring.
Agreed, keybind all the cheats by default and put big "I win!" buttons right on the UI.
If you don't like it? You must not be able to stop yourself from using it!
 

Ladonna

Arcane
Joined
Aug 27, 2006
Messages
10,958
Cheaters don't like when they're correctly called out as cheaters
iu


Keep on attacking them Rusty, don't give up.
 

Rahdulan

Omnibus
Patron
Joined
Oct 26, 2012
Messages
5,145
*walk around trap*

Get rid of this.
*quicksave*
*walk into trap*
*quickload*
*disarm trap*

how do you fix this

even in the case where disarming it uses some resource, they're still presumably better off than having walked into the trap.
I got you, bro - disable manual saves and put automatic ones so far apart that people will rather take the loss than reload and replay 10-15 minutes. If you feel lenient give them a scarce supply of manual save tokens they can use instead. We make everyone suffer just to be on the safe side.
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
*walk around trap*

Get rid of this.
*quicksave*
*walk into trap*
*quickload*
*disarm trap*

how do you fix this

even in the case where disarming it uses some resource, they're still presumably better off than having walked into the trap.
I got you, bro - disable manual saves and put automatic ones so far apart that people will rather take the loss than reload and replay 10-15 minutes. If you feel lenient give them a scarce supply of manual save tokens they can use instead. We make everyone suffer just to be on the safe side.
rpgcodex - home of the people who demand cheats be enabled by default because they're all a bunch of posers
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
rpgcodex - home of the people who demand cheats be enabled by default because they're all a bunch of posers

Yeah, I wouldn't stick around this place if I were you Rusty. You don't want to hang around a bunch of posers do you?
I've been well aware that this site is full of people who do nothing but cheat then brag about being a game they cheated through.
 

gaussgunner

Arcane
Joined
Jul 22, 2015
Messages
6,159
Location
ХУДШИЕ США

Faarbaute

Arbiter
Joined
Mar 2, 2017
Messages
777
Seems like a straight forward argument to me that allowing the player to save and reload at any time could be detrimental to your over all game design.
 

mediocrepoet

Philosoraptor in Residence
Patron
Joined
Sep 30, 2009
Messages
12,327
Location
Combatfag: Gold box / Pathfinder
Codex 2012 Codex+ Now Streaming! MCA Project: Eternity Divinity: Original Sin 2
More: imagine Mechajammer as it is now but with such a save system the devs once envisionned. I'm certain that game could have been actually impossible to finish. You acquire an essential key, then while you make your way to the door it unlocks—on the opposite side of the city, so it takes a couple of minutes during which the game overwrites your save—the key disappears from your inventory. Bricked playthrough.
So you're saying it would've been the most Codexian game ever made.
 

Dhaze

Cipher
Joined
Apr 1, 2022
Messages
527
Location
Belgium
Seems like a straight forward argument to me that allowing the player to save and reload at any time could be detrimental to your over all game design.

Could be, but would not have to be. You can design your entire game with the concept of no manual saves, then introduce manual saves in a sort of after-the-fact way. So you get a well-designed game that doesn't lazily rely on reloads, and on top of that people can save however they want—which comes in quite handy when life or nasty bugs get in the way.

Because at its core, it's more of a player-side issue rather than a developper-side issue. Players will play the way they want to play, no matter what. There is absolutely nothing a developper can do to prevent that.

More: imagine Mechajammer as it is now but with such a save system the devs once envisionned. I'm certain that game could have been actually impossible to finish. You acquire an essential key, then while you make your way to the door it unlocks—on the opposite side of the city, so it takes a couple of minutes during which the game overwrites your save—the key disappears from your inventory. Bricked playthrough.
So you're saying it would've been the most Codexian game ever made.

You're kidding, but imagine the following:

1) After hours of hounding the shadow of a certain NPC, you find him and that all-important key you've been questing after.
2) Get in your car, making your long way to the door said key unlocks.
3) In the streets erupt a sudden, non-scripted riot. Get violently GTA'd out of your car. While you're busy fighting for your life, your car gets very black and very crispy.
4) Realise you had put the key in the shared stash glove compartment, because those five grams of metal nudged you over the tight inventory weight limit.

hK89bC3.jpg
 

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