John Deiley, creator of the talking deathclaws, explains their background and puts Chris Avellone on notice

[HappyDaddyWow!]

1940s style Mafiosos fighting Yakuza in a post-apocalypse is totally fine, but people draw the line at talking deathclaws?

Well, when you want one example of something dumb in Fallout 2, which one are you going to cite? You going to go with the Yukuza that only appear in random encounters around New Reno or the Talking Vault 13 Deathclaws complete with an NPC Follower and a few quests?

A decent point - but I'm just highlighting the fact that Fallout 2 has a ton of silliness and the Deathclaws specifically are a weird hill to die on.

 

[sser]

The idea itself is fine, but it is half-baked. Would've been interesting to have something like maybe a brief deathclaw 'companion' who you talk to or occasionally rendevouz with in the world, but who nobody else knows is intelligent. Then at some point it gets captured and tortured to death, while you're telling everyone it can think and feel, but the deathclaw doesn't want to give away its community so it goes out silently like a boss. After that, you're persona non grata with the rest of the deathclaws and they just seal off the vault and leave the world more or less. The fewer people who know about them the better, for lore's sake. I think the 'silliness' is in part because they were too developed w/o any real meat on the bones or payoff. Been a minute, but I remember them being more like tree elves of the post-apocalypse, just sorta there as an offball "aloof" community.

 

[Harthwain]

I really didn't think that talking Deathclaws were that far out of place for Fallout series, which had other weird things going on for it (including a literal ghost, a talking plant or a chess-playing radscorpion wearing wire-rimmed glasses).

 

[DoWhocares]

When you say the codex has gone to shit, people call you crazy. But then in recent years there have been unironic cases of defending NWN as a good game, defending RTWP as an acceptable way to do D&D combat, and now the cherry on top - defending talking deathclaws as anything but sheer and utter retardation.

If at any point you need proof that codex is in terminal decline, this thread is it.

 

[Harthwain]

When you say the codex has gone to shit, people call you crazy. But then in recent years there have been unironic cases of defending NWN as a good game, defending RTWP as an acceptable way to do D&D combat, and now the cherry on top - defending talking deathclaws as anything but sheer and utter retardation.

If at any point you need proof that codex is in terminal decline, this thread is it.

Whose alt might you be?

 

[DoWhocares]

When you say the codex has gone to shit, people call you crazy. But then in recent years there have been unironic cases of defending NWN as a good game, defending RTWP as an acceptable way to do D&D combat, and now the cherry on top - defending talking deathclaws as anything but sheer and utter retardation.

If at any point you need proof that codex is in terminal decline, this thread is it.

Whose alt might you be?

Does it matter? My point stands.

Besides, in the good old days you would've phrased that as 'sup drog. Another point of decline.

 

[Harthwain]

Does it matter?

Just makes me curious why you need to hide your identity by using a fresh burner account to post here when you obviously have a longer history on Codex than that.

My point stands.

Besides, in the good old days you would've phrased that as 'sup drog. Another point of decline.

Your point doesn't take into consideration that decline in eternal and the only way is the slippery slope down. From that perspective it is easy to see why people re-evaluate their position on certain things.

That said, you must have been here a looooong time ago, considering Planescape: Torment, Baldur's Gate, Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn, Neverwinter Nights 2 (and Mask of the Betrayer), Icewind Dale and Icewind Dale 2 games were on RPG Codex's Top PC RPG list for a while.

Also, I don't really see people "defending talking deathclaws" here.

 

[DoWhocares]

Does it matter?

Just makes me curious why you need to hide your identity by using a fresh burner account to post here when you obviously have a longer history on Codex than that.

My point stands.

Besides, in the good old days you would've phrased that as 'sup drog. Another point of decline.

Your point doesn't take into consideration that decline in eternal and the only way is the slippery slope down. From that perspective it is easy to see why people re-evaluate their position on certain things.

That said, you must have been here a looooong time ago, considering Planescape: Torment, Baldur's Gate, Baldur's Gate II: Shadows of Amn, Neverwinter Nights 2 (and Mask of the Betrayer), Icewind Dale and Icewind Dale 2 games were on RPG Codex's Top PC RPG list for a while.

Also, I don't really see people "defending talking deathclaws" here.

Let's just say due to an autism-induced incident a while back I nuked my main account beyond repair. But this place, it's like hotel california, innit.

As for the deathclaw defense brigade, come on, there are people here claiming that they don't see anything wrong with that considering F2 is silly enough already, or pretend not to understand the difference between a one-off easter egg and a key part of the game. One guy even compared them to super mutants in terms of believability.

 

[Harthwain]

As for the deathclaw defense brigade, come on, there are people here claiming that they don't see anything wrong with that considering F2 is silly enough already

And what is wrong with that line of reasoning? Fallout 2 IS chock-full of easter eggs/strange occurrences/jokes, so this should come as no surprise that by the time people run into talking Deathclaws their reaction is closer to "Whatever..." than "You can't be serious!".

or pretend not to understand the difference between a one-off easter egg and a key part of the game.

It being "a key part of the game" doesn't really matter here. When you have all these easter eggs in the game you are bound to see it as yet another easter egg in the long line of easter eggs. At this point you've learned to not treat the game too seriously and roll with it. Calling that a "defense" is a huge exaggeration on your part.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

But then in recent years there have been unironic cases of defending NWN as a good game, defending RTWP as an acceptable way to do D&D combat, and now the cherry on top - defending talking deathclaws as anything but sheer and utter retardation.

I still stand by my NWN review I wrote decades ago. The campaign was abysmal.

I'll also never understand why BioWare called their combat system "Real Time with Pause" when it was clearly "Round Based". All the actions of all actors clearly take place within a set round. They obviously have to understand the concept of a "round" in the context of D&D since that's what the system actually follows. I guess they wanted to pretend they came up with something new, when they hadn't, because round based combat had been done before in CRPGs.

Fallout 2 IS chock-full of easter eggs/strange occurrences/jokes, so this should come as no surprise that by the time people run into talking Deathclaws their reaction is closer to "Whatever..." than "You can't be serious!".

I think the problem is that the talking Deathclaws are way more than a "strange occurrence" or "Easter egg". They're a fairly involved part of the game complete with quests and an NPC Follower. That's why it stands out more than a lot of the other silly shit in Fallout 2. Heck, it's part of the main quest. And yes, being a "key part of the game" does matter, because you're always going to encounter it and always going to have to interact with it.

He's concerned that it'd make the player feel bad for killing deathclaws in other contexts, after learning that they can be creatures with feelings and reason. Certain things should exist in the world just to make the player "feel heroic". He's thinking like a DM, I understand it--it's better than the alternative of making everything convoluted and morally grey just to affect sophistication. But there should be more than two options.

I thought about this, and MCA has a point. There's way too much of a push to have empathetic villains these days. You can have a multi-faceted villain with proper motivations without making them empathetic, but that requires talent and I don't think most writers have this these days. But the talking Deathclaws aren't even empathetic villains, they're flat out "good guys".

 

[Infinitron]

This is the one major thing Bethesda doesn't understand/didn't care about. They just went all in on the silliness.

This isn't really true. Bethesda's Fallout games are often "serious" and the lack of a serious tone isn't their problem.

 

[Butter]

As time goes by, I'm feeling like FO2's memetic tone worked best. Taking Fallout seriously, like thinking it's meant to be a serious setting was a mistake.

Nice try Emil.

 

[Wasteland]

This is the one major thing Bethesda doesn't understand/didn't care about. They just went all in on the silliness.

This isn't really true. Bethesda's Fallout games are often "serious" and the lack of a serious tone isn't their problem.

Bethesda's most comedic moments occur when they're trying to be serious, and their most serious occur when they're trying to be funny.

 

[Barrow_Bug]

Personally never understood this complaint

1940s style Mafiosos fighting Yakuza in a post-apocalypse is totally fine, but people draw the line at talking deathclaws?

They're both shit. Any of the wacky retarded stuff in Fallout 2 gave Bethesda the license to completely fuck the tone in the ass forever.

 

[Ol' Willy]

Vault 13 in Fallout 2 was also very sloppily designed. Most dialogues were written by using a single template and feel extremely generic

 

[Ryzer]

It's no less retarded than post-apo survivors using football uniforms and baseball bats against firearms and lasers as a faction or scientific robots taking away your brain and connect your skull remotely to your brain, or the fact that your brain speak.

FNV has also a lot of retardation.

What is the excuse this time?

 

[Butter]

It's no less retarded than post-apo survivors using football uniforms and baseball bats against firearms and lasers as a faction or scientific robots taking away your brain and connect your skull remotely to your brain, or the fact that your brain speak.

FNV has also a lot of retardation.

What is the excuse this time?

This is the classic niggerbrained argument that Bethesda fans like to trot out. "B-b-but what about your precious New Vegas!?" This is RPG Codex, not Reddit, and New Vegas isn't a sacred cow here. Old World Blues is deeply stupid, and no serious defense of that DLC invokes the writing. Your Legion point is retarded because 1) they don't use baseball bats, 2) they use firearms, 3) they don't fight anybody that uses lasers.

 

[Ryzer]

It's no less retarded than post-apo survivors using football uniforms and baseball bats against firearms and lasers as a faction or scientific robots taking away your brain and connect your skull remotely to your brain, or the fact that your brain speak.

FNV has also a lot of retardation.

What is the excuse this time?

Your Legion point is retarded because 1) they don't use baseball bats, 2) they use firearms, 3) they don't fight anybody that uses lasers.

Good luck fighting any army with 5.56 rifles when the bulk of the Legion only has:

The most common armament in the Legion are crude machetes and improvised throwing spears

The recruits must now face the most dangerous time of their lives. The most inexperienced warriors in the Legion are given only crude machetes, improvised throwing spears, and antiquated firearms to battle their foes with. To make matters worse for the recruits, they are marched to the front to either overwhelm the enemy or act as human shields for the more experienced legionaries.[5]

Beyond throwing spears and utilizing whatever guns they can get their hands on, recruits must simply wade through enemy fire and hope that they survive long enough to engage their foes up close, when faced with enemies wielding firearms (such as NCR troopers and Rangers). The survival rate for a recruit is appropriately low

The Legion concept is just profoundly retarded.

 

[deama]

There was a quest in fallout 4 about finding some stolen deathclaw eggs, and reuniting them with a deathclaw? And I think the deathclaw thanks you? (By not eating you). All done without deathclaws talking to you, maybe that was a poke at the fallout 2 talking deathclaws.

 

[MakenBro]

Most of the Legion is equipped with a firearm in New Vegas, only some low level recruits have just spears and machetes.

 

[Sinder Velvin]

Really on brand for Feargus to be completely on board with something Avellone absolutely hates.

Feargus changed his mind later on and agreed it was a terrible idea (and said so publicly).

And that bit about how about Avellone would become incredibly difficult to work with if you ever disagreed with him is new. Wonder what his perspective on that is.

I would expect it to be something along the lines of "yay, more slander".

 

[Roguey]

Feargus changed his mind later on and agreed it was a terrible idea (and said so publicly).

"That's not how I feel today!" strikes again.

 

[Harthwain]

I think the problem is that the talking Deathclaws are way more than a "strange occurrence" or "Easter egg". They're a fairly involved part of the game complete with quests and an NPC Follower. That's why it stands out more than a lot of the other silly shit in Fallout 2. Heck, it's part of the main quest. And yes, being a "key part of the game" does matter, because you're always going to encounter it and always going to have to interact with it.

I will give it to you that they can be more annyoing by being mandatory content, but that's besides the point.

The Professor's radscorpion (involving the talking plant, by the way) and the ghost are also parts of their own respective quests. Side-quests and as such can be skipped, true, but they are nevertheless an integral part of the game. Trying to single out talking Deathclaws to fashion their existence in "key part of the game" into an argument is weird, because the point - from the start - was how they "fit in" with the other events that also take place inside of the game.

 

[HappyDaddyWow!]

When you say the codex has gone to shit, people call you crazy. But then in recent years there have been unironic cases of defending NWN as a good game, defending RTWP as an acceptable way to do D&D combat, and now the cherry on top - defending talking deathclaws as anything but sheer and utter retardation.

If at any point you need proof that codex is in terminal decline, this thread is it.

your virginity is in terminal decline

I really didn't think that talking Deathclaws were that far out of place for Fallout series, which had other weird things going on for it (including a literal ghost, a talking plant or a chess-playing radscorpion wearing wire-rimmed glasses).

I think it's just people not being able to think for themselves. This argument never used to pop-up online before Chris Avellone made a statement regarding it.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

It's no less retarded than post-apo survivors using football uniforms