Magic and mages

Vault Dweller · Feb 17, 2004

What do you think of the way mages and wizards are presented in crpgs? Basically they are there to damage, buff, and dispell. It's not much, it's not very magical, if you get what I'm saying. It's unlikely that a mage or a wizard studied for years to cast fireballs and lightnings. I expect something more, maybe a totally different gameplay style, I mean, fighter kills, thief sneaks, charisma boy talks his way through, what does mage do? kills? it's lame. I know that a mage can talk and sneak with some spells, but that's imitation of somebody else's style. May be that's the mage thing - adaptability, but still it's not magical enough. In my mind, a mage is like a Jedi, a member of a superior class who is clearly more then a guy with a shiny sword and a couple of buffs, he can do stuff no other "class" can, far superior, yet not an uber being. Normal rules and challenges don't apply to him, but he has plenty of Jedi-related problems to deal with, etc. Any thoughts?

Human Shield · Feb 18, 2004

Part of the reason is balancing warriors and mages, having mage class easily choosen, having magic items easily found.

A mage doesn't seem so tough when a 8 INT warrior walks around with +5 weapon and armour. I've been thinking of a system that requires knowledge and willpower on the part of the user to even activate a magic item.

Otaku_Hanzo · Feb 18, 2004

Well, look at all the spells in DnD. There are quite a few that just haven't been utilized in any CRPG out there that WOULD let the mage stand out among all other classes. For instance, what if a mage could cast a spell letting him see the basic layout of the dungeon before even taking one step inside? Granted, you can use a thief and sneak around to scope things out, but the wizard could do this in no time, whereas the thief actually has to wander around. Being able to interact with the environment would be another big boost to mage's abilities. Bringing inanimate objects to life, causing inanimate objects to be thrown into the midst of the enemy, etc. Incorporating stuff like that into a CRPG would greatly increase the mage's useage and definitely make them stand out among the rest.

Realbumpbert · Feb 18, 2004

It all depends on the setting. I don't really like the way mages are presented in generic high-fantasy books and games. Low-magic settings treat them in a more acceptable way.

Why do wizards need to 'stand out'?

Psilon · Feb 18, 2004

Um, they stand out less in high-magic settings. If everyone has a level of wizard, then spellcasting is just another specialty.

Low-magic settings, however, where magic is rare? That's where the mage is the Force To Be Reckoned With, as no one quite understands what he's up to.

Otaku_Hanzo · Feb 18, 2004

Realbumpbert said:
Why do wizards need to 'stand out'?

Because they are alot more powerful than any other class out there and yet they seem so bland how they are done in most CRPGs. Aragorn knew not to mess with Gandalf because he'd get his ass kicked. Conan hated magic-users and made sure any magic enemies he came across got taken down first because he knew how powerful they were. A mage is not just someone who can light your way through a dark hall or toss magic missiles at enemies. Mage's are a force akin to Jedi, as VD said. They just use magic instead of the forc. Do not Jedi's stand out among the standard fare of do-gooders in the SW universe? I think so.

DIPthong · Feb 18, 2004

Otaku_Hanzo said:
Do not Jedi's stand out among the standard fare of do-gooders in the SW universe? I think so.

Not in KOTOR. :lol:

Sorry, just a little flamebait...me sorry.

Realbumpbert · Feb 18, 2004

Um, they stand out less in high-magic settings. If everyone has a level of wizard, then spellcasting is just another specialty.

Are you replying to me? I never said that they stood out more in high-magic settings.

Because they are alot more powerful than any other class out there and yet they seem so bland how they are done in most CRPGs.

But this is only in some presentations.

Aragorn knew not to mess with Gandalf because he'd get his ass kicked.

In the standard fantasy terminology, Gandalf was not a wizard. The Mouth of Sauron was a wizard, and Aragorn wasn't scared of him.

Mage's are a force akin to Jedi, as VD said. They just use magic instead of the forc. Do not Jedi's stand out among the standard fare of do-gooders in the SW universe? I think so.

Your premise is circular. Mages must stand out, because they are powerful and unique. (In other words, they must stand out because they stand out). Why do they need to be like Jedi at all?

Otaku_Hanzo · Feb 18, 2004

Realbumpbert said:
The Mouth of Sauron was a wizard, and Aragorn wasn't scared of him.

Never said he was. Just that he knew better than to mess with him. It's called respect in this instance, not fear.

Realbumpbert said:
Your premise is circular. Mages must stand out, because they are powerful and unique. (In other words, they must stand out because they stand out). Why do they need to be like Jedi at all?

Didn't say they had to be like Jedi, just that they could easily be a force to be reckoned with like the Jedi. This really all depends on the setting as well though. But, utilizing the standard high fantasy CRPG settings we see alot of, yes, mages would most likely stand out among a crowd. If not out of respect, then for damn sure out of fear. The average warrior see a group of baddies and runs in, sword flailing. Maybe he kills them all, maybe he gets his ass kicked. He earns respect though due to his heroism. Or he gains less respect due to his stupidity, depending on how people see it. The mage however utters a few words and the group of baddies find themselves engulfed in flames or surrounded by elementals. Or perhaps he changes them all into chickens just for shits and giggles. Whatever he does, people see it and either fear him for the power he wields, or respect him for the same.

Anonymous · Feb 18, 2004

The way D&D does it, with having a Sorcerer and Wizard, I kinda like that. Being Wizard lets you you all the spells, so you get useful stuff like Knock and Ghost Sound to fill your 'niche', while the Sorcerer is limited and chooses mostly damage-spells. In that regard, a Sorcerer is the mirrior of the Warrior and the Wizard is his own thing like the Thief and Talky Guy, and then has high Intelligence (while the Sorcerer has high Charisma), which no other class really uses, so the Wizard becomes useful in matters of the mind and using skills associated with intelligence.

EEVIAC · Feb 18, 2004

Walks With the Snails posted something ages ago about the combat orientation of mages. About how you never saw Mages working in logistics, teleporting huge loads of ore or cloth for monetary gain, or polymorphing small animals into large animals to provide meat for a whole village. (Apologies if I've misrepresented the ideas.) This got me thinking that Mage classes wouldn't adventure so much, usefull as they are to communities. Do you send out ten ordinary plonkers with rusty swords into your basement to deal with your giant rat problem, or do you send a mage who can turn those rat carcasses into delicious sides of beef?

I remebered this while making some notes for my (never-to-be-completed) rogue-like. I was trying to come up with mage-equivalents without having to resort to magic. (By mage equivalents, I mean character archetypes that use their minds rather than their bodies.) It seemed to me that if magic were done right, if it could do the things I imagine it should, it would over-balance everything else. Besdies which, magic isn't the sort of thing I want in my imaginary Victorian Era meets Dawn Of The Dead game anyways.

Oyarsa · Feb 18, 2004

What do you think of the way mages and wizards are presented in crpgs? Basically they are there to damage, buff, and dispell. It's not much, it's not very magical, if you get what I'm saying. It's unlikely that a mage or a wizard studied for years to cast fireballs and lightnings. I expect something more, maybe a totally different gameplay style, I mean, fighter kills, thief sneaks, charisma boy talks his way through, what does mage do? kills? it's lame.

First off I'm pretty tired of CRPG's nearly always having magic as an element. It has gotten cliched and is probably stiliting creativity. Aside from the Wasteland/FO wannabe's pretty much every CRPG has magic usually in a psuedo-medieval setting. So's I'd like them not presented at all.

In a class-based system replace mages with a scholar class, which has a variety of specialties to choose from that have a wide range of applications which enhance the party in combat and out. In classless play make those specialties available for everyone to develop, possibly with some unlocking more esoteric fields. You can pay for professionals to perform translation services or provide information on flora & fauna or study enemy tactics or wander out to a remote vilage and locate and dig a new well - and its an out of pocket expense with less XP rewarded, or you can do it yourself. And you don't have to haul back to the appropriate town every time. A scholar who studies anthropology could up the charisma/reaction ratings when dealing with NPC's in distant lands - just because you've got a high CHR fighter doesn't mean he's not going to gaffe and insult the High King of Ubetcha with a fish fork.

If you insist on magic do it the same way, just make sure there are the applications in-game.

Now the reason we only usually see the combat side of magic is because CRPG's are obsessed with violent solutions to problems and situations. Again, a lack of real creativity. Whether it is an innate lack on the part of most designers or something dictated by market forces, you decide. To get magic into a realm of usefulness in non-combat situations you need to have a CRPG that actually dares to delve into play that does not rely on combat as the priniciple means of advancing the narrative.

Walks with the Snails · Feb 18, 2004

The main problem has to do with game balance. It's an important consideration for group games, but for single-player I kind of like heroes that are well-rounded. Magic is just an extra part of their repertoire, they can still swing a sword, say a few prayers, or fast-talk their way out of a jam just fine, thank you. How do they know magic? Well, they're just better than the common folk, that's why. Guiding Bob the farmer through his exciting day of plowing and pest control wouldn't be that much fun unless you're into the Sims.

EEVIAC said:
Walks With the Snails posted something ages ago about the combat orientation of mages. About how you never saw Mages working in logistics, teleporting huge loads of ore or cloth for monetary gain, or polymorphing small animals into large animals to provide meat for a whole village. (Apologies if I've misrepresented the ideas.) This got me thinking that Mage classes wouldn't adventure so much, usefull as they are to communities. Do you send out ten ordinary plonkers with rusty swords into your basement to deal with your giant rat problem, or do you send a mage who can turn those rat carcasses into delicious sides of beef?

Yeah, that sounds about right. It kind of bugs me that you rarely see broader ramifications of magic. We just get 13th century Europe with cooler fireworks. Why isn't bulk transport of goods over long distances handled mostly by wizards? How come news still travels pretty slow, you could probably create a nice little communication network with a few apprentices. Why do golems sit around hundreds of years in a vault waiting to bash the odd adventurer, but you never see them in construction or manufacturing?

mr. lamat · Feb 18, 2004

Yeah, that sounds about right. It kind of bugs me that you rarely see broader ramifications of magic. We just get 13th century Europe with cooler fireworks. Why isn't bulk transport of goods over long distances handled mostly by wizards? How come news still travels pretty slow, you could probably create a nice little communication network with a few apprentices. Why do golems sit around hundreds of years in a vault waiting to bash the odd adventurer, but you never see them in construction or manufacturing?

as to why they do not transport large amounts of materials... in the generic fantasy setting magick, while uber powerful often comes with misgivings and mages are rarely trusted. they find their work on the borders of society or in the cadre of elite rulers. although we get stuck with fedex quests, in that setting a mage wouldn't be trusted to deliver those goods. think about it for a moment, he says 'yea man, i sent it', but in the meanwhile it'll take two months for word to come back on whether he did or not. it takes grifting to a whole new level. no normal meatbag would want to give that level of control and power to the mages in their society. the same problems arise with the conveyence of information... would you trust all knowledge of your empire, or town to the hands of a few?

in a more constructed universe, magick is often seen as the unmaking of reality. tearing holes in the fabric of the universe so you can send a load of spice across the county doesn't seem like the greatest option. how many times can you rend the ether before the ether comes back with a vengeance? the world of Athas in the D&D setting accounted for this somewhat, as the overuse of magick obliterated their natural environment.

maybe it's only a matter of semantics but i prefer psionics over magic. even in a game like fallout i think it would have been a great option to have and somewhat scientifically plausible. radiation equals charged particles in the air and the brain works off electric energy... a very layman description, but apt. simple powers, like to cloud a mind or create a hypnotic suggestion or later on actually attacking someone telepathically, dropping them to their knees with images of pain and terror. who runs around like a chicken with their head cutoff when freaking out? don't most just go into the fetal position?

i still think magick is for punters who wear bathrobes.

Realbumpbert · Feb 18, 2004

Well, this is why D&D sucks. :D

as to why they do not transport large amounts of materials... in the generic fantasy setting magick, while uber powerful often comes with misgivings and mages are rarely trusted. they find their work on the borders of society or in the cadre of elite rulers. although we get stuck with fedex quests, in that setting a mage wouldn't be trusted to deliver those goods. think about it for a moment, he says 'yea man, i sent it', but in the meanwhile it'll take two months for word to come back on whether he did or not. it takes grifting to a whole new level. no normal meatbag would want to give that level of control and power to the mages in their society. the same problems arise with the conveyence of information... would you trust all knowledge of your empire, or town to the hands of a few?

Nah, that doesn't work. It's akin to saying that a failure to trust our communication to technology in this day and age is perfectly reasonable. A magical society would develop in the same way as this society has developed, with respect to how they utilize the skills of their elite.

Plus, magical knowledge would become more common among the populace as its role grew in importance.

mr. lamat · Feb 18, 2004

Realbumpbert said:
Nah, that doesn't work. It's akin to saying that a failure to trust our communication to technology in this day and age is perfectly reasonable. A magical society would develop in the same way as this society has developed, with respect to how they utilize the skills of their elite.

Plus, magical knowledge would become more common among the populace as its role grew in importance.

that's like saying most people should be able to fix fibre optic cable or manage an ip service. if my telephone breaks, i buy a new one. haven't a clue on how the fucker works nor do i take any interest in finding out.

the question isn't the use of technology or magick but who controls it. would you want all your communications being routed through the Department of Defence? or the CIA? interms of gamesetting, these are what mage societies amount to... but then again, nothing in fantasy has to make sense.

Realbumpbert · Feb 18, 2004

that's like saying most people should be able to fix fibre optic cable or manage an ip service. if my telephone breaks, i buy a new one. haven't a clue on how the fucker works nor do i take any interest in finding out.

Are you afraid that the cable guy is going to double-cross you? Do technicians only provide their services to the ruling class?

the question isn't the use of technology or magick but who controls it. would you want all your communications being routed through the Department of Defence? or the CIA? interms of gamesetting, these are what mage societies amount to

But mage 'societies' are not implicit in a fantasy setting. That's just D&D silliness.

... but then again, nothing in fantasy has to make sense.

It better, or I'm not playing it!

mr. lamat · Feb 18, 2004

Are you afraid that the cable guy is going to double-cross you? Do technicians only provide their services to the ruling class?

no, but they do things like negative option billing and making you wait three weeks to get a dsl line. that'd be about how far their power extends.

But mage 'societies' are not implicit in a fantasy setting. That's just D&D silliness.

in order for the system of communication and trade mentioned, there would have to be an organization of some sort to make it work. some sort of consistency amongst mages would be required, or you've got village A sending village B a rampaging, murderous wildabeast just they could steal all their chickens.

Walks with the Snails · Feb 18, 2004

mr. lamat said:
that's like saying most people should be able to fix fibre optic cable or manage an ip service. if my telephone breaks, i buy a new one. haven't a clue on how the fucker works nor do i take any interest in finding out.

the question isn't the use of technology or magick but who controls it. would you want all your communications being routed through the Department of Defence? or the CIA? interms of gamesetting, these are what mage societies amount to... but then again, nothing in fantasy has to make sense.

You trust doctors that are part of professional orgainzations with your life, don't you? Chances are you wouldn't have a clue how to do triple bypass on yourself if it was even possible, but after a lifetime of double cheeseburgers, you're still probably going to go to the surgeon rather than die because you worry that IV they gave you could be full of mind-controlling drugs, the doctor will actually implant a chip in your head broadcasting your every thought to the CIA, etc. Well, okay, some people worry about that stuff.

Fact is, if there's a useful service to be provided, it should all work out. People mistrusted doctors once, especially when they really didn't have a clue what they were doing. Most people today wouldn't let mostly baseless paranoia stop them from availing themselves of their valuable services now, though. Even if they really don't know what the hell the doctors are actually doing, they just take the pills when they're told to and are mostly content that they can sue for malpractice if some idiot mixes up the x-rays.

mr. lamat · Feb 18, 2004

it's an apples and oranges arguement that could go on forever.

doctors, yes i trust them. yes they are a part of a worldwide organization. they deal with matters on a human level, the issues of trade and state are not on a human level.

for a more proper comparison, do you trust a drug company to have the patient's health at heart or their bottom line? do you trust a multinational coporation to care more about it's employees in the philipines or their domestic market profits?

the situation takes on issues faced by nation states, those of information, control of trade and power. the idea that surrendering the crux of a states viability and future to the hands of a few and them remaining above reproach is laughable. that's why a great many people believe that politics are controlled by the wealthy elite and don't really service the needs nor are beholden to the vote of the common individual.

but in perspective, every fantasy kingdom is decript and corrupt, a few days away from getting stomped on by a bunch of greenskins... so none of these issues really matter at all.

Realbumpbert · Feb 18, 2004

it's an apples and oranges arguement that could go on forever.

No, it is the exact same concept. Who cares what principles services operate on? It's the same thing.

doctors, yes i trust them. yes they are a part of a worldwide organization. they deal with matters on a human level, the issues of trade and state are not on a human level.

So you would trust healer-wizards. :D

What about people in the shipping business? How come we trust them, even though they could be dumping our goods in the middle of the atlantic?

for a more proper comparison, do you trust a drug company to have the patient's health at heart or their bottom line? do you trust a multinational coporation to care more about it's employees in the philipines or their domestic market profits?

Maybe, maybe not. It's not really relevant, as we have these sorts of companies, which is what this dispute is all about.

the situation takes on issues faced by nation states, those of information, control of trade and power. the idea that surrendering the crux of a states viability and future to the hands of a few and them remaining above reproach is laughable. that's why a great many people believe that politics are controlled by the wealthy elite and don't really service the needs nor are beholden to the vote of the common individual.

But we have these wealthy elite, no? Furthermore, you are assuming that mages = secret conspiracy illuminati group! Not necessarily. As I have been saying, they would more closely resemble the technicians and scientists of today, not a sinister organization at all, just a classification of people with certain talents.

but in perspective, every fantasy kingdom is decript and corrupt, a few days away from getting stomped on by a bunch of greenskins... so none of these issues really matter at all.

A cliche that deserves to be stomped by greenskins!

Vault Dweller · Feb 21, 2004

Otaku_Hanzo said:
For instance, what if a mage could cast a spell letting him see the basic layout of the dungeon before even taking one step inside? Granted, you can use a thief and sneak around to scope things out, but the wizard could do this in no time, whereas the thief actually has to wander around. Being able to interact with the environment would be another big boost to mage's abilities. Bringing inanimate objects to life, causing inanimate objects to be thrown into the midst of the enemy, etc. Incorporating stuff like that into a CRPG would greatly increase the mage's useage and definitely make them stand out among the rest.

Yep, that's what I was talking about. I also think that environment interaction is the best way to make a mage character more unique in terms of actual gameplay. May be even making mages a non-combat character, or at least a non-direct combat char, sorta like Aikido of magic where you don't attack directly but use your opponents power against him. What do you think, Otaku?

Mad_Dog · Feb 21, 2004

Otaku_Hanzo said:
For instance, what if a mage could cast a spell letting him see the basic layout of the dungeon before even taking one step inside? Granted, you can use a thief and sneak around to scope things out, but the wizard could do this in no time, whereas the thief actually has to wander around. Being able to interact with the environment would be another big boost to mage's abilities. Bringing inanimate objects to life, causing inanimate objects to be thrown into the midst of the enemy, etc.

My PnP group is playing through the 'Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil' module, and our mage (the player is a crazy dude) is a diviner. For the first few sessions he was useless because we couldn't figure out what to do with him, but now he memorizes a couple clairvoyances every day, and we can scope out a good chunk of dungeon before we even walk in, make a plan, and then kick ass. Or not go in at all sometimes.

Otaku_Hanzo · Feb 21, 2004

Now you're talking.

And, yes, VD, I had thought about that exact same thing. But the problem with it is, he's still a combat mage just not a Battlemage per say. Maybe more something akin to a monk. Aikido is still considered a martial art and combat style. I was thinking like more along the lines of Willow type stuff. Remember when Willow used the wand during the final fight with Da Bitch and fails, ending up bringing that urn to life which proceeds to attack him?
Well, that's kind of the effect I was thinking, without the failure of course.

Or stuff like making books fly off of shelves and pelt the bad guys with them. Or make torches animate and attack. Whatever. Give the mage environments to interact with so that they do have more of a purpose than just another fireball thrower. Even if they are the only ones that can interact with the environment, it would still be better than the standard "Oh, I fire a magic missile at him that's about as useful as my elf friend here using his bow. Ho hum."

Mad_Dog · Feb 21, 2004

Our mage also likes to fly, and we got him a bag of holding full of alchemists fire. When he has protection from arrows on, he's pretty badass.

Magic and mages

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