NWN 2 Drops DM Client!!

I've heard a nasty rumor supporting this, can anyone confirm it ??( it may be old news, i really havent been following it) IF true it makes total sense these fucking asshole retards would nix the best and most unique thing about their upcoming pile of shit.

It's not completely dropped. It's in limbo. obsidian continues to blow smoke how it's 'a work in progress', and that theya r etrying tog et it done so they cna release it in as a 'free patch'. The they make exuses about it's 'all about funds' (trying to shift the blame to Atari despite Atari giving TWO extensions already), then taking responsibility (Mr. Sawyer's tatic).

The whole thing is because they really didn't do anything with the DMC until around E3 supposedly (accoridng to feargus and co.). Because, depending on who you listen to and believe, they either thoguh tit be easy to update NWN1's DMC for NWN2 or they didn't think it was important enough.

In fact, before the hellstorm after the news first leaked out at E3, there was nothing on about the DMC at all.

Obsidian claims that they understand how important the DMC is to NWN series from one side of their mouth, and from the other side give hints that they don't think it truly matters because the 'oc sells all'. Of course, they conviently ignore that NWN with a DMC is the highest selling D&D game in this decade (and likely beats all the ones released in the '90s or the 80s). Yes, even the BGs. And, guess what? None of those games had a DMC. Though, of course, NWN2 will likely sell a million + copies simply based off the D&D name, the NWN logo, and BIO's rep. Yes, BIO's rep since many still think BIO is making it. LOL

As for the DMC. Don'[t hold your breath. It won't be in the intial release, and at this point I'd say it's iffy we even get it in a patch (at least right away). No matter how much Obsidian fanboys blow smoke (and, I like Obsidian myself); it is VERY clear that Obsidian does NOT think the DMC is that important. They likely have it ranked 765th on 'important things that NWN2 must have' list. LOL

Don't get me wrong. I think NWN2 will be a fun game with the possibility of greatness. But, without the DMC (and even the sheer though of no DMC for NWN2) shows how truly Obsidian is clueless on why NWN1 remains popular after all these years. Without the DMC, my earlier claim that NWN2 was a no doubt better than NWN1 would be absolutely wrong NO MATTER HOW GOOD THE OC OR TOOLSET IS.

I also doubt they'll even give HALF the support BIO did/does (BIo released ANOTHER patch just a few days ago, and have another planned). Of course, everything BAD about NWN2 accoridng to Obsidian fanboys is either Atari's or BIO's fault.

R00fles!!!

Vol, do you think that NWN having a DMC was responsible for such high sales?

I am guessing that if NWN didn't have a DMC and PW were not existant that some people either

1) would only download pirated versions to play at home

2) wouldn't even bother to get the expansions

I don't think I have a machine good enough to play NWN2, and if there will be no DMC for the release, I might hold on purchasing it for awhile

I don't get it, what about BIS/Obsidian makes their development pace so sluggish? Not enough talented programmers? Maybe they take longer than Bio to finalize the concepts?

Thanks for the update Volourn,

It's too funny how the very thing that was the original premise of NWN now lies on cutting room somewhere, and the developers spew shit like, "the OC sells all" while the NWN OC was universally reknown as a PoS, So i guess the reality is NWN 2 is actually "BG3" they are just calling "NWN 2" this time around..well I guess NWN will remain relevant for the DM client alone. The point of having a toolset without a DM client is beyond retarded because that puts a 100% reliabilty on prewritten scripting done by someone. (either what the toolset provides, or 3rd party scripts) nothing like cutting out those "uneeded" options, IDIOTS.

Sheriff05 said:

Thanks for the update Volourn,

It's too funny how the very thing that was the original premise of NWN now lies on cutting room somewhere, and the developers spew shit like, "the OC sells all" while the NWN OC was universally reknown as a PoS, So i guess the reality is NWN 2 is actually "BG3" they are just calling "NWN 2" this time around..well I guess NWN will remain relevant for the DM client alone. The point of having a toolset without a DM client is beyond retarded because that puts a 100% reliabilty on prewritten scripting done by someone. (either what the toolset provides, or 3rd party scripts) nothing like cutting out those "uneeded" options, IDIOTS.

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I'll trade the DM client for a controllable party any day of the week!

Maybe they should rename it to UA2.

DMC and advanced Toolset are the cornerstones of NWN's genius. yes, I say genius because NWN is really a great game-constructor (except for the fact that it's fixed to RTwP). There are several VERY cool NWN game servers (so called seamless worlds) which are strictly RP-heavy (there are tons of hack'n'slash ones but it doens't matter really), and there are several very good singleplayer modules, and that really makes up for all the other flaws the game surely possesses in abundance (like, crappy OC and fixed RTwP et al).

metallix said:

DMC and advanced Toolset are the cornerstones of NWN's genius. yes, I say genius because NWN is really a great game-constructor (except for the fact that it's fixed to RTwP). There are several VERY cool NWN game servers (so called seamless worlds) which are strictly RP-heavy (there are tons of hack'n'slash ones but it doens't matter really), and there are several very good singleplayer modules, and that really makes up for all the other flaws the game surely possesses in abundance (like, crappy OC and fixed RTwP et al).

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Seamless Worlds? I thought they were called Permanent Worlds. But that doesn't matter.

The truth is... you want a RP server? You got it. Want a dungeon crawl? You got it. Want a hard core hack'n'slash server? You got it. Want an arena server? You got it. Want a fast leveling world? You got it.

The possibilities are endless.

I thought they were called "Persistent Worlds".

"Vol, do you think that NWN having a DMC was responsible for such high sales?"

No. But, it surely didn't hurt. It espicially didn't hurt its long term sales either. People seem to forget that NWN is BIO's highest selling game ever, yet even though I like the OC well enough, I'd be the first to say that it's not one of BIO's best efforts (well.. that's because they didn't start heavy work on the OC 'til the last year and joinable henchmen were an after thought).

What makes NWN so special is the DMC. Many games have an "OC". Many games have MP. Some games even have a toolset. Only one other game had a DMC, and that game was a complete joke (V:R).

The DMC is a huge part of the game. Anyone who thinks otherwise is dumb. Just because the DMC isn't resonsible for the majority of NWN's sales is irrelevant.

P.S. Yeah, PWs are Persistent Worlds though I doubt it really matters what you call them. It works out the same, anyways.

Is there any data on how much the DMC was actually used?

I want to have a better picture of what we're talking about. My understanding is that the DMC isn't necessarily for building campaigns, worlds, servers, etc.; it's only necessary for live mediation of those. Is that correct?

The DMC seemed one of the most attractive parts of NWN when the game was first announced, and I don't want to minimize its importance. I just don't understand how significant it really ended up being.

I don't understand how the DMC can be so hard for them to create. In NWN1, it was basicly just an invisible PC with the ability to summon creatures and items at will. Surely NWN2 has Invisibility and Summon spells... that code shouldn't be too difficult to modify, should it?

The only other thing is unit possession, which I can only imagine to be a relatively trivial thing compared to all the other stuff they've already programmed. I would think the hardest part of campaign creation would be the toolset... which is already confirmed to be in, right?

Honestly, if this is the type of customer service that we can expect, I don't have any intention of buying the game anyway. It's not as though the DMC is a last-minute request from the fans.

With the DMC you could create any module you wanted by using the toolset only creating the virtual realities, people, places, things. You then could use the DM client to give all those things life, it really gave you unlimited oppurtunity to play the game your way.
Without the DMC you depended on advanced scripting to make any module/adventure
you'll have to use provided scripts, in short you'll have to make your own single player game evertime you want to play. Now of course, it will be marketed as now the toolset contains all kinds of uberscripting but it will really just boil down do to dropping monsters on a map and may some kind of advanced dialogue creator. Its not the same thing. The DMC actually let you emulate a gaming session live on the internet, It was one thing that was right on money with NWN, basically the only thing, dropping this feature just shows how far off rails this game has gone.

"Is there any data on how much the DMC was actually used?"

Depending on who you ask, and their agenda, the range can vary from -10% to 50%.

BIO, I think, has stated I believe that 20-40% (again, it depends on what quote you use) of NWN purchasers have tried MP in some form. Of course, the DMC is likely less than that. For me, I'd say about 10% use the DMC; but 30% or so have atken advantage of the DMC in some way (mostly as players on a PW or small DMed groups).

That said, to me, it doens't matter how small (or large) a part of DMC played in NWN's finanical success. It's a large piece of NWN and it's what makes it NWN and not just another basic CRPG.

Also, supposedly, from the sound sof it, it didn' that long for BIo to program the DMC. Comapred to other parts of the package, it's relatively easy to do. Obsidian didn't even bother with the DMC at all until the fanbase called them out on their ignorance.

Ha ha ha, I don't give a damn. OC and ease-of-modability is all I care about. Uhm, sorry guys, I guess. The possibilities of the DMC -do- sound cool, but I never played NWN online.

I tend to avoid playing homes, and halfings. I say those should be cut. I'll likely only play the stupid Wralock afetr I've tried the other classes 10+ times each; that should eb cut.

Just because there's a feature that one doens't use doesn't mean it should be part of the game.

L0LLERS!

P.S. More people use the DMC % wise than like gnomes, or halflings, or even half orcs.


L0LLERS!

You remenber HotU dont you ...

It was either multiplayer or chapter 3, after the online pool that shown the majority of voters just played the campain offline they made chapter 3.

I remember in the original NWN, the DM client almost didn't make it in, period. And the DM client that did get put in was almost unuseable. Do you remember? You couldn't even look at a player's stats and there was a host of other problems.

The main issue being that there is so much going on that NWN as a type of game needs to get right -- the single-player and multi-player functionality, primarily -- that the DM client necessarily falls lower down on the priority. It is, after all, only a % of the multiplayer crowd which uses it -- which is itself less % than the single-player users. They are a dedicated bunch, don't get me wrong, but like the PW crowd you simply can't justify making them a priority.

Eventually, NWN's DM client got patched up into something useable... but that was quite a while after release. I would say that it was part of what made NWN's following so large and loyal, but I wouldn't say it had a great deal to do with NWN's sales. That logic simply doesn't follow, Volourn. I would say the toolset itself had far more to do with that. (And comparing the DM client -- with all the programming it requires and the many, many systems it must interact with -- to a halfling or gnome model that doesn't even require programmers at all is a little silly, even for you.)

I can't really comment on whatever issues Obsidian is having or their likelihood of patching the DM client in after release -- I honestly don't know -- but it's a bit much to look at NWN's current DM client after four years of patching and compare it to theirs. Remember that they've only had two years (perhaps a bit more now, I'm not sure) to work on it... possibly the scope is a bit much for them to cover all their bases in a such a shorter time frame, but that's simply a guess on my part.

I bought NWN because it was Forgotten Realms like the BGs and made by the same people.

I was a little nublet back then too, so you could probably attribute a lot of sales to uninformed kids thinking they were going to get another BG game. I'd like to think I was just uniquely asinine, but something tells me I fit into a large chunk of the consumer populous.

Sadly, I still have an inclination to purchase NWN2 due to my love for the BGs and the developers responsible for many of my favorite games. Just name drop Baldur's Gate a lot while hyping it and it'll sell like hotcakes.

"I would say that it was part of what made NWN's following so large and loyal, but I wouldn't say it had a great deal to do with NWN's sales."

Nowhere did I claim that.


In fact, I wrote the following "No. But, it surely didn't hurt. It espicially didn't hurt its long term sales either." in response to this question by Binary "Vol, do you think that NWN having a DMC was responsible for such high sales?"

So, all I got to say is what?


"halfling or gnome model that doesn't even require programmers at all is a little silly, even for you.)"

Halflings and gnomes are more than just models. The point, however, is that a minority of players use them just like the minorty of players use the DMC.


P.S. According to Mr. U, by the time NWN2 is released they would have been at it about the same length of time as it took for BG2. Not exactly an amount of time to sneeze at - espicially since outside of graphics, the engine at its core is still Aurora.

What gets me is that they didn't even really bother with the DMC at all until about E3 (accoridng to them). And, yeah, I'm gonna comapre NWN2 with NWN1 now. Afterall, its kinda fair to comapre a 2006 game's (NWN2) graphics to a 2002 game's (NWN1) graphic yet people do it anyways.

And, one should rmemeber they have the NWN base to work with (yeah, yeah, that has some bad points too) so its' not like they started from scratch like you guys did with NWN1.

Bottom line is, NWN (accoridng to you and all other sources), NWN is BIO's highest selling game. And, that's not all based on your rep with the BGs eries ince NWN continued to sell long past its release. (even reaching the top after HOTU's release, IIRC).

And, guess what? It's the only BIO game with a toolset and DMC which surely doens't hurt sales. i doubt even one person said to themselves,"Damnit, NWN has a DMC. I'm so NOT buying!". Yet, the opposite is true for NWN2.

P.S.S. I'm not one of those. I thik NWN2 will be a great game in its own right; but it's a let down with the iffy DMC situation since the DMC is what sets NWN apart from other games.

I find myself agreeing with a lot of the things Volourn is saying in this thread. It makes my head hurt. Please, make it stop.

Dgaider said:

I remember in the original NWN, the DM client almost didn't make it in, period. And the DM client that did get put in was almost unuseable. Do you remember? You couldn't even look at a player's stats and there was a host of other problems.

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Gee, I remember the original premise of the game being BASED ON the premise of having a DM client, of course that was back when NWN was going to be a multiplayer only game
back before you even decided to incorporate an original campaign. Regardless it wasn't long after release you had the DM client working, I bailed on the game shortly after the 2nd expansion and it was working quite fine long before then, in fact it was one of only redeeming things about the game. I find it odd you want to mention the DM client being unusable when just about *everything* about the game was trainwreck on release it took a couple patches to get things happening across the board.

It's clear you want to make it out, in retrospect, that the DM client in the original game was somehow an afterthought. While I obviously don't work for you I was certainly around for Day 1 of public discussion of the game and that is a complete load of shit as far as public perception was concerned.

The DMC was as intergral to game as the games premise itself, while the work that went into its creation may have been disproportionate (especially after you changed the games direction) Your attitude now seems completely disingenuous. "It almost didn't make it in" ROFLMAO I would have loved to see you make that public announcement in late 2001!!

The main issue being that there is so much going on that NWN as a type of game needs to get right -- the single-player and multi-player functionality, primarily -- that the DM client necessarily falls lower down on the priority. It is, after all, only a % of the multiplayer crowd which uses it -- which is itself less % than the single-player users. They are a dedicated bunch, don't get me wrong, but like the PW crowd you simply can't justify making them a priority.

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The DM client was the one thing that let average schmoe get around not have to use advanced scripting in order create and play their own multiplayer modules. Taking that away and saying, it's only a small percentage of the base who miss it, is basically admiting the game has become something other than it was proposed to be. Are you finally admitting that after all this time?

Of course when your goal then becomes dumbing it down to the masses and basically turning everything you do into a console game, it's very hard to stay true the original IP's fans. (that be D&D, in case you've forgotten)

I've always said you guys needed to choose your audience unfortunately you guys have gotten by fooling your audience to an extent. NWN2 has been pumped up as making up for the shortfalls of NWN and more, in reality its nothing of the sort and you should have just called this game *BG3* and been done with it. Calling this new game *NWN2* is basically a bait and switch because the brand "NWN" carries certain expectations (despite numerous efforts to the contrary) If you guys cant handle putting out something that isnt basically just another single player game with shoddy scripted multiplayer then don't do it. Call *it* what it *is* and cut the crap. That's what pisses me off the most about you guys it's not the games or their short comings as much as it is the bullshit machine.

Eventually, NWN's DM client got patched up into something useable...

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I fail to see how the new toolset is going to have anywhere near the functionally is has in the original game without the DM client. I used the DM client non-stop to jump around and test numerous mods during their construction. Without it, I would have been screwed. and building mods would have nigh impossible. The new toolset may have a feature that enables you to jump thru created mods for self testing, I don't know, But I certainly would not be suprised if that key use for the DM client was overlooked when the decision to kill it came around.

You know ... multiplayer only games had very low sales figures.

I am not talking about MMORPGs that are a diferent beast, sure we now have some "multiplayer" games that happen to be ... FPS.

NwN without a module would not sell, BioWare (and Interplay) realized that and added the NwN OC (and lead to ... well we know what) since this is comercial enterprise, they dont make games to please you personaly.

I am not going against the RPG Codex ideals because one thing is making a game for 3 people to play and another is making a FPS and call it a RPG and making a multiplayer only NwN would be such game.

And Dave knows I am not doing him any favors but I do recall the early days of NwN and how the DM client was not funtional so yes, it shipped with a DMC that happened to not funtion ... yet people were a tad more vocal about the OC quality (and I am not talking about the Tower of Luskan problem that made it impossible to continue the game) and other aspects that the DMC.

Yes, some people seem to care ... just like some people REALLY wanted mounts and did not buy NwN because it lacked mounted combat.

Drakron said:

NwN without a module would not sell, BioWare (and Interplay) realized that and added the NwN OC (and lead to ... well we know what) since this is comercial enterprise, they dont make games to please you personaly.

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Here's a brief history lesson, NWN's original premise was a multiplayer only game with DM Client that was going to ship with a series of modules (4 , IIRC ), However this was hot on the heels of BG2 and fan base was screaming for another OC. Bio reconfigured the game due to consumer demand by incorporating a single player campaign at 11th hour. which ended delaying the release another 1.5-2 years. Upon release the whole thing was a train wreck- the OC, The DM client and the Multiplayer modules it shipped with were a joke, the whole launch of the thing was a disaster. BUT the hype was so huge( going on 5 years) that people stuck it out. No one in this day and age would give anyone that much rope, The hard core D&D people are the one that made they game survive until the masses caught on and the patches were in, rejecting the DM Client as part of this initial success is just completely ignorant.

Its not the same thing as assholes whining about mounted combat or cloaks or robes or any of that bullshit, its the one freaking thing that made the game for people early on when the OC was joke and people had not gotten a handle on the toolset. I know that's tough people who bought the game for single player only later to comprehend. But thats they way it was. It not about pleasing me or anyone personally its about the long history of saying one thing and doing another, Let's shitcan the revisionist history and stick with the facts. Personally I don't give shit about NWN2, in any way, shape or form but the bloody irony of hearing about them killing the DMC was just too rich to pass on. Let the excuse making continue!

Sheriff05 said:

I've always said you guys needed to choose your audience unfortunately you guys have gotten by fooling your audience to an extent. NWN2 has been pumped up as making up for the shortfalls of NWN and more, in reality its nothing of the sort and you should have just called this game *BG3* and been done with it. Calling this new game *NWN2* is basically a bait and switch because the brand "NWN" carries certain expectations (despite numerous efforts to the contrary) If you guys cant handle putting out something that isnt basically just another single player game with shoddy scripted multiplayer then don't do it. Call *it* what it *is* and cut the crap. That's what pisses me off the most about you guys it's not the games or their short comings as much as it is the bullshit machine.

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Uh huh.

Well, "us guys" aren't making NWN2. I can't really comment on whatever plans Obsidian may or may not have with the game, only on my experience with the original.

And with the original, the biggest selling points were the toolset and the single-player OC. Not the DM client. The DM client was an incredibly useful tool, don't get me wrong, and part of what's allowed NWN to be played in so many different ways but it's never been that widely used.