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Yet another long Oblivion "first impression" threa

suibhne

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Aug 21, 2003
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'Cause I'm too lazy to figure out where else to put it. Some of this is obvious repeatery, but my commentary is always invaluable. :lol:

Seriously, I haven't posted here in for, like, EVAR, but I figured it would be diverting to drop by and see what everyone's thinking of BethSoft's latest masterpiece. I picked it up the other day, and I was particularly relishing the thought of coming here in full fanboi regalia and telling you all that you missed the second coming of the RPG Christ - that you're all 100% wrong about Oblivion, and that history will not judge kindly your shallow oldsk00l prejudices.

Only problem is, I'd be full of field-ripe feces.

Before my mini-review, an apologia: I got a promotion, just cashed a new paycheck, and after finishing Avernum 4 I was itching to try any non-FPS with some extended play time. Besides, I was already in EB buying Metroid Prime: Hunters. So really, if I hadn't purchased Oblivion, the terrorists would have won.

Also, a caveat: I liked Morrowind. It was a terrible RPG - but even as a combat-heavy adventure game with piss-poor social interaction, it suited part of my gaming style pretty well. I tend to explore every nook and cranny in the game world, and I love finding out-of-the-way caves or dungeons or canyons or mountains or whatever, and Morrowind was actually rewarding for that kind of approach. I hated the walking Wikis, I was bored by the combat, I was irritated by the idiotically-scaled monsters and the insipid quest design . . . but I got a kick out of exploring every square inch of the game world. In Tribunal, in fact, the dungeon crawling was among the best I've ever seen (outside of the ludicrously bad final dungeon).

Without further ado, my impressions based on the first hours of the game, with the negatives first (since I know that's the only reason you're reading it anyway).

THE BAD

1. Draw distance and texture LOD.
Yes, Virginia, it really and truly sucks. I was floored by the incredibly low texture quality past the LOD horizon, and some vistas which could have been magnificent end up looking laughable: they're low-quality and poorly tiled to boot, which can make that hillside across the river look about as snazzy as a preschooler's scribbles with dun-colored sidewalk chalk. On top of the execrably poor texture quality at a distance, geometry/object pop-in is a real issue. Buildings on the other side of the lake don't even draw in until you've dog-paddled halfway to their shore.

Keep in mind that my experience is based on playing the game at 1600x1200 with everything except shadows at max. I tried the .ini tweaks mentioned in the Elder Scrolls forum, and I found them to cause a significant framerate hit on my Athlon 64 3500+ and ATI Radeon X850XT (not a bleeding-edge rig anymore, but definitely not a slouch). And they didn't really solve the problem anyway; they only moved the LOD cutoff to about 50% of my view distance, rather than 30%. There's still a lot of ugliness out there before your eyes get to the horizon.

So, yeah - as bad as all that? Absolutely.

I'm undecided about whether I prefer Gothic's (or Morrowind's) serious world draw-in to this mess. That draw-in is ugly, but at least you know there's something out there you can't see; in Oblivion, there might be ruins in that clearing, or it might just be another peaceful forest clearing. And it's still just as ugly as Gothic's draw-in, maybe more so. In any case, Oblivion clearly doesn't get a pass here. Moronites at the ES forums seem to like pointing out that this problem is unavoidable for such a messianic game, but c'mon already - Far Cry handled this challenge with aplomb, all of two fucking years ago. Get some real programmers, Beth.


2. Texture quality
The textures are disappointing, basically low-res crap wallpapered with lots of normal mapping. It honestly doesn't bother me, but please - I'm supposed to believe this is next-gen?


3. Animation
I don't have any complaints about the NPC and monster animations. When viewed in 3rd-person perspective, tho, the PC animations are no better than Morrowind's. And that's really, really awful, placing Oblivion in the lowest tier of premiere titles being released today. I don't get it: with all the capital flowing into a game like Oblivion, can they really not afford better than this?


4. Automap
The automap is extremely disappointing. Maybe I just haven't figured it out in my first hours of play, but the default scale is too close to be useful and I haven't divined how to adjust the scale. And to make it even less useful, Beth seems to have decided the automap should only record data in about a 10-foot radius around your character.

With a scalable map and a larger mapping radius, this would have been perfect. As is, it's almost worthless.


5. Character interaction
The only significant improvement over Morrowind seems to be

Wait, there's absolutely no improvement over Morrowind.

Within the first hour of play, I'd already seen some glaring recurrences of the worst problems from Morrowind's character interaction mechanics. To whit:

- When you invade the privacy of someone's home, they yell at you to leave. Try engaging them in conversation, tho, and their facial disposition frequently becomes a smile. Their Wiki-style responses are exactly the same whether you've just picked the lock on their door in the middle of the night or are politely questioning them on the street in broad daylight.

- Different phrases from the same character sound as if they're voiced by different actors. This could also be a consequence of the fact that some Wiki responses sound angry while others sound exceedingly mellow, even when you've broken into an NPC's home and pocketed all of their cutlery right in front of their eyes.

- Different responses from the same character actually contradict each other. In one response, Character X will dismissively voice her belief that Gray Fox is simply a rumor; in the very next response, she'll tell you with total credulity that the Thieves Guild is led by Gray Fox, and she'll describe him with what actually sounds like fear.

Just as moronic are the random interactions between NPCs. Here's a pretty representative sample of the kind of stuff you'll overhear:

Man: "Good day to you, good citizen!"
Woman: "Hail to you!"
Man: "I hear the Fighter's Guild is recruiting."
Woman: "Oh!"
Man: "Farewell to you."
Woman: "Goodbye!"

I'm not exaggerating the extent of the insipidity; that's an actual paraphrase from the very first inter-NPC conversation I encountered after leaving the tutorial dungeon. In fact, it's a fairly kind example when compared to some of the conversations I've overheard since then - at least it makes sense.

If anything, Oblivion's system so far seems worse than Morrowind's, just because Beth decided to jack up the font size for the console kiddies. In other words, the character interaction is just as poorly-designed, but the ratio between content and screen real estate is now much worse.


6. Speechcraft
Special mention goes to the new Speechcraft minigame. I'm a native English speaker and a pretty decent writer with a few awards to my credit, but I can't even begin to imagine a vocabulary for the extent to which this minigame is utter horseshit. Besides being an incredibly stupid design idea without even a tangential relation to real social interaction (something with which most players probably have at least a modicum of real-world experience), it simply doesn't make sense.

I think it's probably fair to suggest that the system sucks if I can't grasp it within about 5 seconds. I'm a reasonably intelligent guy, but the more important point is that this is supposed to analogize ordinary human conversation.


7. Interface
Oblivion's interface is a huge step backward from Morrowind's, which was already deeply flawed.

Oblivion's interface is organized around hierarchical nesting of menus, which makes a lot of sense if you're using a console gamepad. Indeed, this is de rigeur for console menu design, and it works fine in, say, Resident Evil 4. The problem here is twofold:

First, Beth doesn't effectively implement a good hierarchical structure. My biggest complaint is that, tho menus are hierarchically nested, you can't navigate back to the previous menu using the Esc key (or any other key that I've been able to discover); instead, you have to actually choose the "Return" option on the menu. It's frustrating as hell and imposes a totally unnecessary level of interface latency. And I assume it's not structured this way in the XBox 360 version, since the console world is basically standardized on hitting "B" to travel up (back) one menu level.

Second, Beth is foisting a hierchical scheme on an entire user population whose UI everywhere outside of the game is spatial rather than hierarchical. I'm not saying spatial is necessarily better; I'm just saying it's what everyone uses in the non-console world, and it makes no fucking sense to force your players to use an alien organizational scheme when there's a totally effective model with which your entire fucking user base is already 100% fluent. Grow up.

The problem is even larger than that, of course. The conflict isn't just between the Oblivion UI and that of the rest of the Windows universe; games frequently deviate from familiar mouse-driven interface, sometimes very effectively. The more significant conflict is between the way you interact with Oblivion's game world and the way you interact with Oblivion's game interface: the first is mouse-and-keyboard-driven, standard FPS fare, while the second is downright inimical to mouse use. I'm thinking of buying a wireless mouse just so I can throw it across the room every time I need to open the goddamn menu.

It's also worth mentioning that the game offers neither interface tooltips nor the ability to name your saved games; Beth seems to have forgotten about both mice and keyboards. Oh, and they also never learned about scaling UI to higher resolutions (or they forgot that functionality since including it in Morrowind). The level of grade-school bullshit here is downright baffling.


8. Plot
I'm not going to get into any significant spoilers here, even tho it probably doesn't matter. But I will happily ruin the tutorial dungeon for you: just before perishing at the hands of shadowy (but laughably low-level) assassins, Emperor Patrick "Uriel" Stewarptim bequeaths to you the sacred amulet of his bloodline, to be conveyed to a secret heir. A few narrative problems become apparent if this scenario is subjected to even minor cognitive rigors:

First, the Blades - the hand-picked bodyguards of the holy emperor who leads an entire nation - are so low-level that two of them meet their (apparently scripted) deaths at the hands of assassins whom you can dispatch with relative ease. Their equipment also happens to be only marginally better than your starting gear. In other words, the idiocy of levelled monsters is painfully obvious within the first 5 minutes of playing the game. (The only reason you can't easily save the Emperor, and thus obviate the entire fucking storyline, is that the game literally freezes your controls while a new shadowy low-level attacker emerges from a monster closet to kill him. Uh, rofl?)

Second, the captain of the Blades is alive at the end of the fight which kills the Emperor, but he behaves as if he's just received a massive cranial trauma: he immediately trusts the Emperor's judgment in giving the Amulet of Kings to you, which is odd enough, but he also seems to think it's a good idea to send you - an escaped convict - alone into the world, with instructions to bring the Amulet to a distant town, in a nation where the emperor and all of his known heirs have been brutally assassinated and where the Amulet somehow seems to be the key to this.

See, he has to stay behind to guard the Emperor's lifeless corpse.

I'm not exaggerating this plot device. It really is that puerile. What strikes me most is that it didn't need to be puerile. It's not hard to cook up workaday narrative solutions for all of these plot idiocies, so I'm left with the conclusions that Beth's writers and designers are either really stupid, archly cynical about the stupidity of their audience, or simply lazy. None of those alternatives is particularly inspiring.

One of the few things I enjoyed about Morrowind was the narrative sophistication of some of the text. Hell, the main storyline was predicated on an obscure disagreement of textual interpretation, and the lit crit in me thought that was actually kind of cool (even tho the game was totally unable to deliver an effective overall narrative). The narrative sloppiness in the first 15 minutes of Oblivion is dismaying and really dampened my desire to see how the storyline develops.


THE GOOD

1. Loading times
They're a non-issue, at least on my rig. It's downright puzzling that BS chose to superimpose "Loading New Area" on the screen; if they hadn't announced it, I honestly wouldn't have noticed the loading at all, and I would have been suitably impressed with their area loading. (Contrast this with Morrowind, where even bleeding-edge rigs can stutter when every new outdoor cell is loaded.) And my hard drive setup isn't exactly tomorrow's tech; I'm running a single standard ATA drive, so I'm guessing my disk access should be pretty typical for most PCs running the game.

Otoh, the loading times will be a major issue on any rig where they're an issue at all, because I run into a loading message on average about every 15-20 seconds in the outdoor areas.


2. Stability
Oblivion has been rock-solid for me, other than the odd behavior of accessing my third-party x.264 codecs whenever it launches. (When I quit Oblivion after playing for an hour, I'll find 10 or more instances of the codec in my taskbar.) I can't fairly blame that on Beth because I haven't isolated the problem, but it never happened before.


BOTTOM LINE: RPG?

Noes.

Many of the quests are more interesting than Morrowind's, and Oblivion does a better job than Morrowind at offering the same sort of "role-playing" experience that you can get from, say, Deus Ex: the freedom to approach situations differently with different character types. I'm kind of role-playing a character, and the game doesn't generally force me into situations that don't work for that character. Otoh, it also doesn't present meaningful options for different responses based on character; BG2 had much better role-playing options than this, and that's damning with faint praise. And social interaction is at least as bad as in Morrowind, which sort of pre-emptively forecloses entire role-playing approaches.

As a stat-based, combat-heavy, exploration-focused adventure game, it's fun within its infuriating technical limitations. I'll probably enjoy it in the same way that I enjoyed Morrowind, and I don't really regret the purchase. But that doesn't mean I don't harbor genuine hatred for the game reviewers salivating over it. The inferior design elements of Oblivion are impossible to miss - they persistently interpose themselves between you and whatever positive experience you might eventually discover in parts of the game - and I can only shake my head and chalk this up as another lesson in the intellectual bankruptcy of game journalism.

As for BethSoft designers learning lessons from Morrowind...well, turns out they were pulling our leg. Surprise!
 

suibhne

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I didn't see Whip's thread or the other "first impressions" thread. Feel free to move it to one of those.

I agree with Whip's and EvoG's comments that it's more fun than the sum of its parts. I'm honestly enjoying it, just as I honestly enjoyed Morrowind as a game focused on exploration and stat-based fantasy combat. If I weren't so focused on those angles, tho, I have a sneaking suspicion I wouldn't be having as much fun.

I think most of my negativity stems from reading the reviews I've seen so far, which are downright disgraceful. There are a lot of real issues in the game. In fact, based on the current level of available tech, the issues might be even more irritating than Morrowind's were. That doesn't prevent it from being a worthy purchase if you go in with your eyes open, but don't expect to get a fair picture of the game from all of the bongwater being peddled by game sites.
 

DarkUnderlord

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Just so I can make this clear, the only good things about Oblivion are stability and loading times, both of which only occur on good rigs as many others have complained about frequent crashes to desktop and piss-poor loading times... Sounds fun.

I too agree that Oblivion will be fun "for what it is" (exploration) but the hype machine was working over-time on this one and it's good to know that once again, a game company has failed to deliver. Expectations--
 

suibhne

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DarkUnderlord said:
Just so I can make this clear, the only good things about Oblivion are stability and loading times, both of which only occur on good rigs as many others have complained about frequent crashes to desktop and piss-poor loading times... Sounds fun.

I didn't do a good job of enumerating other good things. In terms of individual features, I'm not really jazzed about anything specific, yet I can mention a litany of specific problems. What makes it fun, like EvoG and Whip and others have said, is that somehow, in the total package, some entertainment manages to surface.

I'm enjoying Oblivion just as much as I enjoyed Morrowind, for the same reasons - basically a roguelike blown up onto a much larger scale with generally good graphics and lots of different quest opportunities. I'm also a lot more disappointed with it, tho. Despite my attempts at cynicism, I guess there's an outside possibility that I actually expected it to be clearly better than Morrowind, and so far I just don't think that's the case.
 

jplestat

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Cannot really agree with your review overall

I actually really realy disliked Oblivion in the first hour. The beginning is really quite terrible and boring. Luckily, you can save right before leaving the trainer dungeon with a character and since you can totally change all character choices before leaving you can use it as your starting point for all future games.

The interface sucks. I understand on a high politically correct corporate level the decision to have the same UI in the PC version as the XBOX version but it was an incredibly bad decision. It would not have been that difficult to design an effective PC control system and UI as well as a different one for the XBOX. As the original reviewer stated this interface has no place in the PC world, and I hope others do not follow this lead. It is really a reprehensible and regrettable decision. An elegant, scalable, PC interface would have been a tremendous boon to this game rather than the garish oversized ugly non function menu mess they came up with. It was almost enough to get me to stop playing the game. Hot keys are the only saving grace.

I disagree on the graphics. I really believe people love to trash graphics, especially when they try to actually look like something. Games like Quake which look like nothing get reviewed better reviews because there is no frame of reference. I think the outside graphics especially are exceptional, sometimes stunning. No game has ever offered the view distance that is in this game and they are getting crucified because the far textures are not as crisp as near. Well, in real life they are not either and standing on one of the mountains looking down at at the cith I thought it looked incredibly realistic.

I also really dislike the concept of monster difficulty levels scaling with character levels. One of the great joys in RPGs has always been the ability to go back and kill the lvl1 rat that almost killed you at the beginning of the game in one shot. In Oblivion if you went back he would be the same approximate level as you. Having said that, combat over Morrowind is dramtically improved. The longer you play the more challenging it gets and the more you have to use various techniques and strategies to get by. And it is fun.

All that said, the more I play it the more and more I like it. It is totally open. Just exploring is a blast and there are a ton of places to find and explore. Dungeons and caves and all that are very well designed and interesting. I think the automap is fine, could be better but not bad. Combat the more I play become more and more interesting. It is a game experience offered by no other game other than the other Elder Scrolls titles and this is a big upgrade over that. Maybe Two Worlds or Gothic 3 will offer this but right now Oblivion is unique. Someone said it is better than the sum of its parts and I agree. It has really grabbed me. I hate the dumbing down of the game and the unified interface which should never ever be done again, but it is an excellent maybe even great game despite its flaws (graphics are NOT one of them, alhough faces suck) and is a lot of fun. And it is definitiely an RPG, meaningful dialogue choices or not.
 

bryce777

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That is a pretty bad opening plot. The only area I thought they MIGHT deliver something I'd like was story and quests, and if that is their starter then that is extremely unlikely. Talk about breaking 'immersion'.

It sounds like they made lots of smaller cells, making the loads more frequent, but faster. Not a bad way to do things, I guess - this is one area where I am surprised they did better; I honestly expected the loads to be worse. The loading signs sound annoying as hell, but I imagine this is moddable.
 

Higher Game

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Do you think the LOD was butchered so the XBox 360 could handle it? I think a 7900 GT could have much better texture distance.
 

bryce777

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Higher Game said:
Do you think the LOD was butchered so the XBox 360 could handle it? I think a 7900 GT could have much better texture distance.

I'm sure of it - there is no reason not to have settings that push past even what pcs can handle today, except not to outstrip the xbox. they evens aid as much, actually. That is why shadows were taken out, too.
 

Data4

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bryce777 said:
The loading signs sound annoying as hell, but I imagine this is moddable.

Already done.

I'm using the actual mod someone made out of this later in the thread. Haven't had a single problem so far, and the difference of of not seeing the message every 10 seconds is great.

-D4
 

AlanC9

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Aug 12, 2003
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505
We don't know the terms of Bethsoft's contract. They may have to ensure the XBox 360 version is as good as the PC version.
 

Twinfalls

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Re: Yet another long Oblivion "first impression" t

suibhne said:
'
First, the Blades - the hand-picked bodyguards of the holy emperor who leads an entire nation - are so low-level that two of them meet their (apparently scripted) deaths at the hands of assassins whom you can dispatch with relative ease. Their equipment also happens to be only marginally better than your starting gear. In other words, the idiocy of levelled monsters is painfully obvious within the first 5 minutes of playing the game. (The only reason you can't easily save the Emperor, and thus obviate the entire fucking storyline, is that the game literally freezes your controls while a new shadowy low-level attacker emerges from a monster closet to kill him. Uh, rofl?)

Second, the captain of the Blades is alive at the end of the fight which kills the Emperor, but he behaves as if he's just received a massive cranial trauma: he immediately trusts the Emperor's judgment in giving the Amulet of Kings to you, which is odd enough, but he also seems to think it's a good idea to send you - an escaped convict - alone into the world, with instructions to bring the Amulet to a distant town, in a nation where the emperor and all of his known heirs have been brutally assassinated and where the Amulet somehow seems to be the key to this.

See, he has to stay behind to guard the Emperor's lifeless corpse.

I'm not exaggerating this plot device. It really is that puerile. What strikes me most is that it didn't need to be puerile. It's not hard to cook up workaday narrative solutions for all of these plot idiocies, so I'm left with the conclusions that Beth's writers and designers are either really stupid, archly cynical about the stupidity of their audience, or simply lazy. None of those alternatives is particularly inspiring.

Fucking unbelievable. They have not learned, or have not bothered to learn, a single thing. What happened to 'yeah we have some of the old Daggerfall writers back on board now, so trust us, the plot will be better'?

Great review Suibhne.
 

Rat Keeng

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Oct 22, 2002
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869
Hrm, seems I've seriously misjudged Oblivion's shortcomings, as in I've assumed they couldn't be as bad as they sounded, but I've been reading a lot on TES boards, and damned if even the most ravenous fans aren't complaining, saying what a huge letdown it is compared to what Morrowind was.

I can't say I'm not happy it turned out like this, as far as I'm concerned this can only be a good thing, as in a lesson for Howard and Co. that maybe they shouldn't fuck over Fallout 3 as well. Not that there's any shred of evidence towards Bethesda having the capacity to learn from their mistakes, but hey, here's to hoping.

By the way, that plot description of yours had me in stitches, shit I might just get the game so I can experience how horribly shitty that opening sequence is, it sounds like I'd get a right good laugh out of it. I knew Beth didn't have writers capable of writing a non-linear plot, but not even a decent linear story? Good thing Fatty Patty Stew-Stew is there to save the day with his rich sexy voice.
 

Klinn

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Messages
98
Good review, Suibhne. A amusing description of some of the plot holes. :) Well, this thread looks a good a place as any to add my own first impressions.

These first impressions of Oblivion on the PC are after playing for about 15 hours. I tend to play in a careful, stealthy manner, exploring dungeons and ruins thoroughly. My first character is of the Acrobat class, and I’ll probably make a custom Scout type class for next time.

My system: 3 GHz P4, 2 GB RAM, 256 MB GeForce 6800GT, WD 7200rpm hard drive. I’ve maxed in-game settings for draw distance, grass, and trees but have not tried any INI file fiddling yet.

A lot of what appears below are complaints, but let me state up front that I’m enjoying the game overall. I’m sure it will eat up as much of my free time as Morrowind did, i.e. lots!

Interiors
Interiors are similar but better than Morrowind’s. Improved textures and an interesting variety of architectural styles and layout. There are more rooms with some height to them. In MW it always annoyed me when you entered a ‘grand hall’ of some sort and the ceiling was maybe 15 feet high. In Oblivion there is definitely a sense of grandeur. The lighting is much better too, although there are some weird things going on with NPC shadows. On occasion they seem to come right through walls & upper floors.

Exteriors
Exteriors are a mixed bag. Near field, with the grass distance maxed-out to minimize pop-up vegetation, looks pretty good. The trees look great with no obvious ‘bill-boarding’ of leaves that some have mentioned regarding SpeedTree. Very distant hills, pale grey shapes tempting you to go off and explore them, provide a good setting. But the middle distance is terrible. It’s those horrible blurred ground textures you’re read about, plus a few brighter-colour tree sprites pasted on top. It looks like preliminary concept art, not a final product. Now there are many times when I was in more rolling terrain, in the Great Forest, where the view was terrific since you didn’t see much of that middle distance range.

The main quest seems to be specially designed to highlight the shortcomings of the graphic system. That old saying that you only get one chance to make a first impression? It’s certainly true here. When you emerge from the introductory sewers to get your first glimpse of the famed next-gen living world, you see almost no foreground but a huge fuzzy expanse of a hill just across a narrow river. With those pasted-on caricatures of trees. Yuck. They should have designed it so you emerged into a grassy ditch with distant hills just visible above. Play to the engine’s strengths, not weaknesses. Assuming you dutifully follow the main quest and head off to your first contact, you travel along a road leading out of Cyrodiil which crosses a river and follows a gentle upward slope. Perfect for clearly displaying the grass popping into existence. A couple of turns later and you cross an exterior cell boundary which causes some nearby ruins to be loaded and suddenly pop into existence. Sheesh, with some intelligent level design you could minimize these effects, but it seems Beth went out of their way to demonstrate the limitations of their exterior graphics.

On the plus side, exterior cell loads are very quick and rarely cause any hiccups or slow downs. The LOD effect as objects in newly-loaded cells ‘resolve’ themselves can be a little annoying. It seems the exterior cells are smaller than MW’s, which may aggravate the situation. Hopefully that means the terrain mesh is finer grained. I haven’t noticed very many awkward creases in the roads or other surfaces, so that’s an improvement.

When I first tried tinkering with the graphics options to improve things, I discovered that the Draw Distance slider is really an on/off toggle. At its maximum the hills appear as I described above. One tick lower and suddenly all exterior cells surrounding you are plunged into a dreary fog with nothing visible beyond. And since the cells seem smaller than MW’s, it is a much more claustrophobic feeling. So that small adjustment of the slider is the difference between seeing for miles or for only about a hundred feet. There’s no gradual change, just an abrupt disabling of the Distant Land and Distant Buildings and other options.

And what’s with the oil slick pretending to be water? I can’t quite put my finger on it, but it just looks wrong. There are no ripples when you move through it or objects fall into it. On the other hand, the lava in Oblivion looks too fluid, kind of like runny orange Jello just before it has set. At least, I think it’s supposed to be lava.

The sunset, sunrise, and weather effects are well done with good transitions from one state to another. Although I was disappointed to see that Tamriel’s builders still can’t figure out to make a roof impervious to rain and snow. Yup, it falls right through just like in MW.

Quests & NPCs
So far, I’ve found the quests more enjoyable than MW’s. The few that I’ve done rarely feel like the same old FedEx or go-kill-that-guy missions. The one involving that annoying wood elf you may have seen in one of the promotional videos is actually something I would like to play through again and make different choices to see what happens. So far, the main quest seems to follow more of a ‘go there, do this’ format but I’m still in the early stages. Hope springs eternal.

I’ve only just joined the Fighters’ Guild, so we’ll soon see how varied their quests will be.

Some of the NPC’s voices, and the emperor’s heir Martin in particular, are very well done. They convey much more subtlety of emotion than the faces show. Although sometimes there is a disturbing discrepancy. A solider yells out an emotional “For Kvatch!” just before launching into battle, but his face has the appearance of being mildly annoyed at a delivery boy. The eyes should get a bit bigger and rounder with excitement and the mouth should be stretched open wider as he yells.

Speaking of the faces, I haven’t noticed very much of that atomic glow-in-the-dark colouring that was so apparent in many screenshots. Sometimes they get an overly strong back-lit effect so the face is dark but there’s a halo of bright skin around the edges of the face. It’s like somebody turned off the main lights and there’s only the key or ‘kicker’ light left. I can understand this in some dark dungeon with moody lighting. But it happens a lot with merchants in shops where there should be decent average illumination.

Whoever decided to use bump mapping/normal mapping/whatever for facial wrinkles should be sent to work at a makeup counter. There’s not much subtlety, some faces are baby-smooth but any NPC with a noticeable amount of wrinkles looks like they should be suing for a botched plastic surgery job.

The level of danger feels higher than it was in MW. The scaling of difficulty has its odd side – I could just barely dispatch a nasty dremora in Oblivion with great effort, as it should be, but then a roadside wolf was almost as much of a challenge. Although that did lead to an interesting moment of “immersion”. One night I was leaving an inn to trek to another town. Not looking forward to encounters with wolves or highwaymen, I was delighted to see an Imperial Guard on horseback heading down the road. Running from the inn’s front door, I caught up to him and enjoyed an armed escort through the night’s travel.

By the way, if you’re heading into a nasty battle, it’s always handy to have a quest-essential NPC with you. Simply hide away in a safe spot. They will battle until they get “killed”, i.e. become unconscious. Then they wake up, battle some more, have another nap, and so on until all the enemies are gone. Hey, I said I was playing a “stealthy” character, right? Nudge-nudge, wink-wink. I haven’t seen much of the old MW problem of NPCs or creatures getting stuck behind obstacles. While that is improved, one boss NPC couldn’t figure out how to use stairs to reach the spot where I’m raining arrows down on him. Maybe the path grid in that cell didn’t include the stairs.

Combat
One word: laggy. I’ll take Beth’s word for it that combat is more involving and tactical this time, but if I press the ‘block’ key or right mouse button and my character has time to take a drink of coffee before raising his shield, well, it just doesn’t work. Thank goodness my marksman skill is increasing, and my ability to sneak and get critical hits.

The Dreaded Compass
I was worried about this dumbed-down hand-holding example of Beth selling out to the Konsole Krowd but frankly, I didn’t even notice it. It even came in handy once when I was trying to track down an NPC that was running all over town. One annoyance with the world map – you can create your own markers in case you come across something interesting while exploring and want to come back later. But you can’t label them or add any pop-up text descriptions! At least, I couldn’t see how to do it. So you’ll end up with a bunch of blue markers on your map and no idea what they represent. Time to drag out the pad of paper again.

Summary
Oblivion is Morrowind, only more so. Really, it doesn’t feel like a huge advance, just more of the same. But from my perspective that’s not an altogether bad thing. MW suited some of my gaming interests very well. There are definitely some graphical improvements, albeit mixed in with some horrible bits, and the quests so far are more interesting. The voice acting for average NPCs is only average too, but others in the main quest are quite well done. I’m hooked, and for now anyway, I’m looking forward to diving back into the game.
 

Shagnak

Shagadelic
Joined
Sep 6, 2003
Messages
4,638
Location
Arse of the world, New Zealand
Okay, I'm tired, I've had a bit to drink, I need some sleepdamnit, but I have to say this is a fine piece of commentary/criticism.

suibhne said:
- Different phrases from the same character sound as if they're voiced by different actors. This could also be a consequence of the fact that some Wiki responses sound angry while others sound exceedingly mellow, even when you've broken into an NPC's home and pocketed all of their cutlery right in front of their eyes.
I have noticed this too, but mainly between different modes of conversation. Like the beggar-lady in the first city you come across.
Sounds like an old crone in "non-engaged" commentary, but when engaged in conversation her voice switches to someone else's. And when you try the "persuade game" she sounds younger again. Bizarre...

suibhne said:
Special mention goes to the new Speechcraft minigame. I'm a native English speaker and a pretty decent writer with a few awards to my credit, but I can't even begin to imagine a vocabulary for the extent to which this minigame is utter horseshit.
Totally agree.
I even got my wifey in on it (when she had got back from a shoe buying expedition ) and between the two of us, her sober, me not, we could not fathom how they could possibly think this emulated "real-world" person-to-person persuation. Once gain - bizarre...

suibhne said:
7. Interface
All comments in this section are valid complaints about rampant consolism.
I can't count the number of times that I have tried to use the escape key to quickly traverse the menu hierarchy, only to find that I could not.
Very annoying. And something that would be incredibly easy to implement.

suibhne said:
1. Loading times
They're a non-issue, at least on my rig. It's downright puzzling that BS chose to superimpose "Loading New Area" on the screen; if they hadn't announced it, I honestly wouldn't have noticed the loading at all, and I would have been suitably impressed with their area loading.
It is bizarre that they want to hi-light what seems to be a non-issue. My rig is a couple of years old (A2600xp/1GB ram) and the loading creates no pauses what-so-ever. Is it in because the console does not have the whopping great memory a lot of us have, and they couldn't be fucked removing the message for the PC version? Seems strange.

suibhne said:
2. Stability
Oblivion has been rock-solid for me,
Yeah, I have had zero stability issues on my rig. NVidia GF6800 + Audigy 2 ZS.
No crashes, no sign of memory leaks.
Total contrast to the release of MW.

It's weird.
The things that I expected to be crap (e.g. stability and performance) have been fine, and the things that I expected to be reasonably good (e.g. AI, "liveliness" in cities) have proved to be ordinary, if not rubbish.

suibhne said:
In terms of individual features, I'm not really jazzed about anything specific, yet I can mention a litany of specific problems. What makes it fun, like EvoG and Whip and others have said, is that somehow, in the total package, some entertainment manages to surface.
Ditto.
There is some entertainment to be had, it is a reasonably good LARP simulator, but <jedi powahs> this is not the RPG you are looking for </jedi powahs>.

Now...'tis 3am and bed is beckoning.
I will be playing this over the weekend, but only sporadically. It is not the addictive game I that I thought would entice me away from doing the gardening or whatever. Damnit.
 

LlamaGod

Cipher
Joined
Oct 21, 2004
Messages
3,095
Location
Yes
Oblivion is Morrowind: The Director's Cut, except the Director is a mildly retarded 11 year old named Todd and he has a strong obsession with boobies and the Xbox
 

Excrément

Arbiter
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Messages
1,005
Location
Rockville
after 3h30 of playing the game, I will do my very small little first impressions about the game.
I will try with the good and the bad system (I think it's the best system for "first impressions" post because it's still hard to have an overall opinion after just 3h30...

good
- interior graphics
- stealth system is excellent
- exploration seems excellent too (speedtree reinforce the explorating part) but I am quite disapointed, it's not that huge I went from the Imperial City to Chorol in 10 minutes by foot.
- dungeons are far away better than morrowind, and maybe better than daggerfall (I did a dungeon who had the good size, big enough to get lost and not too big to get boring). dungeons are very dark and the nighteye spell is excellent.
- fight (at the beginning I found the fight system worse than morrowind but once you arrive to use well the block/attack system and have the good timing, it's all good)
- alchemy is very fun to play in this game.

bad
- interface not intuitive at all
- exterior graphics at long distance
- dialogue seems poor but voice acting is quite good
- french localization!!! (who the fuck did this translation??)
- RAI didn't impress me for the moment, it makes the world more alive but that's it (I maybe need to play more)

I didn't do any single quests and didn't join any guild so I don't have a clue about the quests storylines.

For the moment I got a lot of fun to play the game and I can't wait to play the game again.
 

sheek

Arbiter
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
Messages
8,659
Location
Cydonia
If anyone wants to test out Oblivion for free send me a pm. I can't run it because I don't have the right graphics card.

(serious)
 

Chefe

Erudite
Joined
Feb 26, 2005
Messages
4,731
Codex (circa 2005): They can't possibly make a worse game than Morrowind.
TESF (circa 2005): Morrowind was so great! Things can only get better from here!

Codex and TESF (circa 2006): This shit is worse than Morrowind.



Great review, suibhne!
 

Solik

Scholar
Joined
Jan 24, 2006
Messages
377
The thing where you can't save the emperor isn't nearly as bad as you make it out to be. Given the situation, there's absolutely no way you could have realistically saved him, unless you knew beforehand exactly what was going to happen. And the only way you could know that is from previous playing. That's "metagaming" and is in no way related to RP. It's also very, very quick; it's not like a JRPG cutscene or anything.

The plot isn't a literary masterpiece or anything. Its purpose is to be exciting and epic, and it's doing that just fine.
 

Klinn

Novice
Joined
Nov 3, 2005
Messages
98
Kraszu said:
- stealth system is excellent
Whot about 360 npc vison, that sound like stealth system killer to me.
Actually I've noticed the opposite. I can sneak up behind fine. But if they are looking towards me or if I am in their peripheral vision, they will notice me. This may improve as my sneak skill goes up, right now I can hide in shadows even when they are looking at me (from a distance) but if I move they spot me.
 

suibhne

Erudite
Joined
Aug 21, 2003
Messages
1,951
Location
Chicago
Put in another few hours after drinking draft beer last night. I'm starting to enjoy the game much more than I did at first, since I'm doing a lot more world exploration and the very real technical problems are receding to a low-level hum of annoyance, but the first 5 hours or so were bad bad bad.

Anyway, the Persuasion minigame is starting to provide mild fun, like a lobotomized pickup game of Tetris, but ironically it now frustrates me even more. I think it's the most anti-RPG feature in the entire game.

First of all, it's so easy that you're essentially penalized if you chose to tag Speechcraft or Personality in your character setup. I ranked close to Journeyman (50 skill) in Speechcraft before I even left the Imperial City, even tho I ignored it during character creation and therefore started at a paltry total of 5.

Second of all, the Persuasion minigame forces you to use all the speech options. In other words, if you decide to use "diplomacy" at all, the game forces you to be a bully; there's literally no way you can't be a bully. Conversely, if you're playing a bully, the game forces you to also be a sycophantic flatterer even while you're threatening to bash an NPC's face in.

In other words, all talkers in Oblivion have to joke, admire, boast, and threaten all at the same time. For an analog to real-world conversation or real-world conversational skillsets, that just sucks. Players create and understand their characters based on their real-world experiences, but in this case Oblivion purports to symbolize a real human process and actually twists it beyond rational recognition.

It also means that, if you encounter NPCs in Oblivion whom you actually like (and notice I say "if" rather than "when"), you'll still end up threatening them with bodily harm even tho you might feel it's totally inimical to your character. "So sorry! You remind me of my dear sweet granpappa who recently passed away and always fed me Nirnroot ice cream, but I have to threaten to break your nose because it's an inherent part of my Speechcraft skill!"

(It's worth noting that, even tho "Coerce" doesn't have to involve physical violence, some of the NPC responses during the Persuasion minigame are clearly reacting to threats of physical violence.)

Aside from being bad RPG design, this irritates me personally because my characters are generally good at smart diplomacy but not at threats, intimidating, etc. In Oblivion, tho, there is no such thing as diplomacy; the only options in Oblivion are threaten, joke, admire, or boast. I wonder how those people in Cyrodiil ever get a goddamn thing accomplished.
 

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