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Yet another long Oblivion "first impression" threa

Licaon_Kter

Augur
Joined
Mar 8, 2006
Messages
346
Location
Between the keyboard and the chair.
...i saw "TEH ARENA". yesterday.
You can hear people rowr(roar? spelling??)/cheer/boo from the outside, and for a moment you think "wow, so theres we're all the NPC have gone". i placed a bet on the blue team (or was it the red one... very original indeed...), and off to the arena.
Inside you're at this balcony, and you can see the whole arena, you cant jump inside (the balcony is surrounded by an invisible, hittable wall), theres like 15 NPC that act like the spectators, basicly they wave theyre hands in one of two different ways, you can hear them cheer/boo (i think this is random).
Then you hear the arena announcer, "...red team vs blue team", the fighters enter (1 vs 1; dont know yet if its possible to have 2/more vs 2/more...like Mount&Blade). The fighters fight, you donk know you is the red/blue one. The fight looks ok, sometimes they get theyre shields broken or they loose it; they can pick it up again, ect.
Finally one of the fighters die, sometimes the announcer says who won (yet sometimes after the fight is over, nobody says anything). Now, the strange part, after one of the guys dies the winner just sits there, the spectators keep waving theyre hands (luckly they dont cheer/boo anymore), the NPCs that sit at your balcony do nothing. (I actually felt asleep while these guys where fighting so, when i woke up, like 30 min later, it was already night in Cyrodiil... but that did not impress those NPCs/fighters that kept staying there).
I went outside, talked to the arena guy, looked like my bet was ok, and i won 50gold.

Great.
 

Atrokkus

Erudite
Joined
Feb 6, 2005
Messages
3,089
Location
Borat's Fantasy Land
Realistically, the finest of the finest men in the Emperor's personal bodyguard service should not be dying in one hit to level 1 assasins.
A much better scenario would be to swarm the guards with a lot of minions (not assassins, but heavy fighters), outnumbering them. The guards, of course, should be very high-level (makes sense), but hey -- two sturdy guys can't really beat the whole squad. Make it an ambush, so that player could decide what to do: try to battle them (which is impossible, he'll be dead real quick), or run away/hide (hurts pride, but also makes it challenging and thrilling experience). The character generation, therefore, should be made "off-game", so that the player already had a selected class and perks by the time he engages this sequence, and act accordingly (thief would hide in shadows, acrobats -- jump somewhere, etc).
When the guards are dealt with, they get to the Patrik Steward, hitting him several times, and departing right after that, leaving him writhing in agony... then the pc comes out of the cover and speaks to him. This option is kinda weak, I guess it would be better to cut this "message from dying king" bullshit, and make it so that he would say stuff before gettin ambushed (or is it this way in the game? Sorry, haven't played).

ALternatively, you could leave the assassins in, but make it so that the player couldn't challenge them, and had to hide somewhere to survive, or just run the hell out of the dungeon (with assassins creeping after him -- that would be tottally cool). The assassins, of coruse, should be ultra-high level, just as the guards (but a bit better than them), attacking by surprise and shit like that.
Also, if the player is stealthy enough, he could return to the killing spot and get soem loot from the fallen knights. But that would be ultra-hard, because assassins are sweeping the area.

Now, I would totally love an introduction like this (a vignette basically): quite realistic, and puts you into action right away.


*EDITED*
 

Solik

Scholar
Joined
Jan 24, 2006
Messages
377
It would be a good idea to play or at least watch the full intro for suggesting improvements :) Throughout the escape, there are multiple battles against ambushing assassins (most of which you can take part in). Guards will fall as you go, and the emperor says various things to you along the way. The actual assassination at the end is when the guards are fighting them outside of a room (that you think is safe) when a guy jumps out of a tunnel in a wall or something and axes him down. He doesn't tell you anything after that -- he's quite dead.
 

Crazy_Vasey

Novice
Joined
Apr 25, 2004
Messages
82
No - I enjoy a good read, but I don't play video games to read pages of meaningless filler text in a font that looks like it's straight out of the Commodore 64 era.

I quite like the books myself. The dialogue is terrible and the plot so far has been far from inspiring, but the backstory of the Elder Scrolls games has always been fascinating, and I do like reading the books that mention what happened in the previous Elder Scrolls games.

I have a lesser cpu (A2600xp) but 1 GB of RAM and a "not-current-anymore but still quite good" video card in the form of a GF6800 (the boring valilla-flavoured version).

I even have HDR turned on and texture size set to "Large", but the distance stuff set to the defaults, other than character fade-out, which I've improved so I can get the drop on creatures with my mad bow skillz. Performance is good, but not perfect.

So, pointing out the obvious, you need more RAM and a card that has more current shader tech.

Yeah, pretty much my conclusion too. The CPU is rarely the limiting factor these days and that's been the case since I got my first real Athlon and got away from the shitty budget processors with about 16 bytes of cache.

Anyway, completely ignoring the automatic settings and setting texture size to small has helped a lot. I didn't bother with it before because the game takes approximately forever to start and exit and without a restart the setting doesn't take effect. So now the game just looks like high-res Morrowind. Ho-hum. So much for the new graphics engines. FarCry looks considerably better and the grass in that game doesn't make my PC cry.

Not bad. It even had a friggin' lever puzzle in it.

Jesus wept. Irritating lever puzzles are why I never finished Daggerfall.
 

sheek

Arbiter
Joined
Feb 17, 2006
Messages
8,659
Location
Cydonia
Licaon_Kter said:
...i saw "TEH ARENA". yesterday.

Then you hear the arena announcer, "...red team vs blue team", the fighters enter (1 vs 1; dont know yet if its possible to have 2/more vs 2/more...like Mount&Blade).

I know you can have 2 vs 1. Probably other options are available.

But Mount&Blade Arena Expansion still beats it in my opinion.
 

kris

Arcane
Joined
Oct 27, 2004
Messages
8,851
Location
Lulea, Sweden
The one thing the intro teached me was that having group fights is not a good option. A third of my hits was on my friends as people bump into each other and run past each other like they don't care someone is hitting at them.
 

Data4

Arcane
Joined
Sep 11, 2005
Messages
5,539
Location
Over there.
kris said:
The one thing the intro teached me was that having group fights is not a good option. A third of my hits was on my friends as people bump into each other and run past each other like they don't care someone is hitting at them.

"By the gods! There's a psycho on the loose!"

-D4
 

Claw

Erudite
Patron
Joined
Aug 7, 2004
Messages
3,777
Location
The center of my world.
Project: Eternity Divinity: Original Sin 2
I think the best solution for the intro would have been that everything important is mentioned more or less in passing to the player before the assassination, an autosave occurs right before it and the player dies if he tries to interfere.
In that case he can load the autosave, hide and take the amulet out of the Emperor's dead hand or simply leave, in which case he'll have to come back for the amulet later if he wants to start the main quest.
What would be really cool is if he could find Martin without the amulet and be scorned for leaving the amulet.
Of course, it would be even better if an assassin survived and took the amulet. Then the first goal of the main quest would be getting the amulet.
 

suibhne

Erudite
Joined
Aug 21, 2003
Messages
1,951
Location
Chicago
Solik said:
The actual assassination at the end is when the guards are fighting them outside of a room (that you think is safe) when a guy jumps out of a tunnel in a wall or something and axes him down. He doesn't tell you anything after that -- he's quite dead.

My recollection is that Emperor Stewarptim talks to you after he's been "axed down"; he gives you the Amulet as he's dying.

As for solutions to the opening stupidity, I would've gone with Lvl 40 Blades fighting Lvl 40 assassins, forcing the player into hiding. Once the Emperor is killed, you have two choices: either kill off all the survivors through some sort of environmental catastrophe (roof collapsing etc.), or maybe have the lead assassin surviving, trying to take the Amulet, and being killed by the Amulet itself. Whatever. The eventual point is to leave the player with the Amulet and no fucking clue what it does or why anybody wants it, then make the first part of the game all about defending yourself from high-level assassins/thieves (pretty much evading attempts on your life) while trying to discover the meaning of the Amulet and what you need to do with it.

You could even have the Emperor himself trigger the catastrophe, tossing the Amulet to you as he brings down the house. He's already talked to you several times about your presence in his dreams, so he clearly believes by this point that you have some necessary role in all of this. And the alternative, after all, would be for the Amulet to fall into the hands of the enemy.

This would have made the whole beginning much more interesting to me. A: mystery. B: challenge. C: deadly threat (which later I'll be powerful enough to defeat). And it could have been easily prepended to the rest of the plot as it currently stands.
 

suibhne

Erudite
Joined
Aug 21, 2003
Messages
1,951
Location
Chicago
Further impressions, good and bad, now that I'm about 20 hours in:

- Levelled lists are handled very poorly. I haven't played the early part of Morrowind in years now, but my recollection is that the levelled monsters worked much better there; crawling through Daedric ruins before level 15 or 20 was genuinely nerve-wracking, and even low-level Daedra were a challenge. Here, tho, I was taking down low-level Daedra with ease at Level 2. The levelled lists make it possible for a Level 2 (maybe Level 1) character to successfully close an Oblivion Gate or become Grand Champion in the Arena, and there's no way in hell that should be possible (pardon the pun). (The ESF threads posted by Twinfalls in this thread are 100% spot-on. Even the fanboys are waking up to the coffee. :wink: )

- Compounding the bad news is that really good gear is hard to come by. I'm sure some of you will tell me there's a ton of ph4t l3wt just waiting for my prying Wood Elf fingerses, and I've no doubt that's true; all I can say is that my playing style is to explore every nook and cranny, and I still don't have anything to write home about.

- The good news about levelled lists is that there are still some places where monsters are far stronger than you. Not all of the challenge is gone, just most of it. :lol:

- NPC AI is really bad. Like, RILLY. I just finished a combat-heavy section where I had 4 heavily armed allies, and their tactical approach was to ignore all nearby enemies, rush at distant enemies, and aggro everything on the map until they were all slaughtered and I was left solo dealing with a cavalcade of 5 Clannfear, 4 Flame Atronachs, and 1 Dremora headed straight for me with that infuriating omniscience possessed only by badly-coded videogame enemies. Total bullshit. Enemy AI isn't much better, tho enemy spellcasters seem smarter than they were in Morrowind. Anyway, none of it's quite...well, radiant. :roll:

- The reason BethSoft didn't allow reviewers to pass through any Oblivion gates is because the planes of Oblivion are dumb. At least from what I've played so far, the planes are 100% combat, puzzle-solving is as prehistoric as the "find the blue key" formula straight out of shareware Doom, and the levels are basically linear. In fact, the switch in gameplay is so radical and unwelcome that I was reminded of the last few levels of Vampire: Bloodlines. To make matters worse...

- This game has serious issues with collision detection between actors and geometry. (To be fair, Morrowind sported the same deficiency.) Enemies routinely get stuck on little polygons, especially in caves, and I routinely get stuck on polys while trying to acrobat my way around levels. This is particularly bad in Oblivion - where much of the terrain is passable for an acrobat character, but only if you get exactly the right angle on your 18th try. Jumping is particularly borked; once you're caught on something, you can't jump and sometimes can't even move. I've had to reload my game because I've been caught on geometry (a slope, e.g.), even when everything around me was open and I should have been able to at least jump back down.

- So far, in 20 hours of play, I haven't seen a single quest with multiple solutions. Sure, you can take different tactical approaches to quests, in that you can stealth or go in with guns blazing...but each quest seems to have only one solution. Take the example of one of the first quests you get (and yes, this is a SPOILER): you don't have the option of blackmailing Agarmir or partnering with him, or of blackmailing Thoronir; all you can do is exactly what the game tells you to do, which is to kill one and redeem the other. (Well, you can always choose to leave the quest incomplete. In that sense, I guess there are always multiple solutions: quitting the game is an omnipresent option. :lol: ) I know I've only scratched the surface of the gameworld and there are no doubt a multitude of quests still awaiting me, but I've been underwhelmed thus far; quests feel like they're lifted from an FPS rather than an RPG.

- The speech interaction gets worse and worse. Here's one example: just as in Morrowind, there are characters designed to be snobbish aristocrats who rudely insult your lineage and refuse to talk about anything else. You can still raise their disposition to 80-90 through the Persuasion minigame, tho, with the result that they'll greet you with a insipid smile, follow up with a sneering insult, then end the conversation with another expression of bovine friendliness. It's totally off the hook, yo.

- Fast travel is terrible. I remember over and over reading that fast travel would only enable you to visit places you'd already explored, but it turns out this was a vicious, godless lie. Even tho the roads are swarming with bad guys - try them and see - you start out the game with the ability to fast-travel to any of the cities in Cyrodiil. You can also fast-travel to any quest markers you've been given. Um, yay for console kids?

- Despite all of these issues, I'm having serious fun exploring the forests and ruins. The outdoor landscape is designed much better than Morrowind's. There's sometimes no point to the exploration outside of exploration itself, since you can spend an hour cleaning out a necromancers' lovenest and get basically zilch from it, but the game is definitely giving me some fun in this department.

- The graphical issues have become less and less bothersome to me. LOD still blows in a major way, but I found it didn't bug me after the first few hours; just as with Gothic's or Morrowind's fog distance, I got used to the fact that the game sometimes looks like barnyard excreta. Anyway, my focus is generally on my immediate surroundings, which look genuinely nice. The reason I was so irritated with the LOD issues has nothing to do with the gameplay; rather, it has everything to do with the misleading impressions about graphic quality which were happily imparted by the devs.

- The game's stability is going south. I haven't tracked it down, but there's clearly some bad mojo going on: Oblivion spawns multiple processes in the background, apparently through Windows Media Player (I know - wtf?), with the result that system memory is devoured by the shovelful. I can't play for more than an hour or two without crashing - and quitting manually (i.e., without a crash) can require me to logoff and back in, as my whole system sometimes grinds to a screeching halt even after Oblivion is ostensibly closed. The game appears to manage memory very poorly, and I'm guessing it doesn't properly release it once closed.
 

suibhne

Erudite
Joined
Aug 21, 2003
Messages
1,951
Location
Chicago
Btw, the ultimate proof that BethSoft didn't give a damn about the PC release is that it's easy as pie to name your saved games. All you have to do is bring up the console (type ~) and enter save X, or save "X Y" if the name has more than one word. BethSoft simply didn't care enough to retool the UI at all.

Welcome to the future of PC gaming.
 

Data4

Arcane
Joined
Sep 11, 2005
Messages
5,539
Location
Over there.
suibhne said:
Solik said:
The actual assassination at the end is when the guards are fighting them outside of a room (that you think is safe) when a guy jumps out of a tunnel in a wall or something and axes him down. He doesn't tell you anything after that -- he's quite dead.

My recollection is that Emperor Stewarptim talks to you after he's been "axed down"; he gives you the Amulet as he's dying.

Not that it really matters in the grand scheme of things, but actually...

SPOILER
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No, he's very much alive and in reasonably good health when he gives you the amulet. He just KNOWS he's about to die and is resigned to not escaping. (as if this really needed a spoiler warning).
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/SPOILER

suibhne said:
Btw, the ultimate proof that BethSoft didn't give a damn about the PC release is that it's easy as pie to name your saved games. All you have to do is bring up the console (type ~) and enter save X, or save "X Y" if the name has more than one word. BethSoft simply didn't care enough to retool the UI at all.

Welcome to the future of PC gaming.

Yeah, it's all part of that Deus Ex:Invisible War syndrome. You would think the industry would've learned. I could give the rest of the game a free pass if it wasn't for that fucked up UI and complete disassociation with a PC's method of interfacing with a game (i.e., keyboard and mouse). The UI/savegame issue goes further than just being a minor annoyance. It's symbolism at it's worst. Welcome to the Next Generation(tm)!. With Bethesda, specifically the complete dumbshit who decided the console interface would be just dandy for a PC, they're just playing Lolita to Microsoft as they say "Fuck me, daddy!", while Microsoft says "Yeah, I keeps mah bitches paid!". More evidence this is true: My processor isn't high end. I'm still waiting on a few events to pan out before getting an FX-60, so right now I'm running an AMD 3200+ XP. I've got a gig of RAM and a Radion 1600 Pro, and my settings are maxed out at 1024 x 768 with frames averaging 30-40. Soft shadows COULD have been kept in, but Microsoft shoved it's collective dick into Bethesda's mouth and said "Listen, bitch. Our aim is to push PCs strictly into the world of enterprise applications, while we position the XBox brand as the king of gaming. Your game is 60% Xbox / 40% PC. Make it so any schmuck can play it, but don't you DARE include anything that'll show a weakness in our wonderful gaming platform. This helps us both out... Xbox sales and game sales. Yeah, I keeps mah bitches paid... now swallow this shit, slut!"

Understand, I do like the game, but I want to love it. Every time I hit the Tab key, I'm reminded of how little developers respect the PC gaming community. As I said before, it's not just the annoyance of the system, but what it represents as the future. I have a feeling in another 10 years or less, I'll be making a serious hobby change. R.C. airplanes, or train sets... something that requires and rewards coherant thought and deductive reasoning...

-D4
 

Solik

Scholar
Joined
Jan 24, 2006
Messages
377
You may want to check the mod forums. Bethesda thought enough of its PC fans to make all the menus formatted with XML. Community members have already revamped the interface to allow 16 items per screen, a large map with zooming, and a stronger quest journal. Furthermore, shadow settings have been found in the .ini that allows for drastic improvements on their quality (real "softening").

If anything, it's the X-Box fans that got fucked. PC fans can configure damn near everything. It hasn't been out for a week, and most of these issues have been repaired. Naming save games is probably right around the corner, if it's not already out.
 

Section8

Cipher
Joined
Oct 23, 2002
Messages
4,321
Location
Wardenclyffe
I've had to reload my game because I've been caught on geometry

Don't do that, just use Recall or Intervention.

Oh.

In any case, cheers for the update, it's still sounding like an interesting game, but I'm really disappointed that even exploration has been shat upon by the levelled lists. Right now, my biggest motivator is morbid curiosity. Like it or not, this is a very significant game in terms of RPGs (whether it is one or not) and so basically I want to analyse the fuck out of it.
 

DemonKing

Arcane
Joined
Dec 5, 2003
Messages
6,060
Solik said:
If anything, it's the X-Box fans that got fucked. PC fans can configure damn near everything. It hasn't been out for a week, and most of these issues have been repaired. Naming save games is probably right around the corner, if it's not already out.

Yes but if it's such a painless thing to implement these additions, why the hell didn't Bethesda do it themselves.

It shouldn't be up to the community to come up with basic fixes like this.
 

Zomg

Arbiter
Joined
Oct 21, 2005
Messages
6,984
Section8 said:
Like it or not, this is a very significant game in terms of RPGs (whether it is one or not) and so basically I want to analyse the fuck out of it.

I have the same feeling. Plus, all the complaining about the difficulty curve tells me that I could very likely enjoy it on a graphical roguelike level. I hate to reward the system that produced it, though.
 

VenomByte

Scholar
Joined
Oct 17, 2005
Messages
271
Solik said:
You may want to check the mod forums. Bethesda thought enough of its PC fans to make all the menus formatted with XML. Community members have already revamped the interface to allow 16 items per screen, a large map with zooming, and a stronger quest journal. Furthermore, shadow settings have been found in the .ini that allows for drastic improvements on their quality (real "softening").

If anything, it's the X-Box fans that got fucked. PC fans can configure damn near everything. It hasn't been out for a week, and most of these issues have been repaired. Naming save games is probably right around the corner, if it's not already out.

TBH, since you can name save games via the console command 'save GameName', the naming is pretty much a non-issue now too.
 

Data4

Arcane
Joined
Sep 11, 2005
Messages
5,539
Location
Over there.
VenomByte said:
Solik said:
You may want to check the mod forums. Bethesda thought enough of its PC fans to make all the menus formatted with XML. Community members have already revamped the interface to allow 16 items per screen, a large map with zooming, and a stronger quest journal. Furthermore, shadow settings have been found in the .ini that allows for drastic improvements on their quality (real "softening").

If anything, it's the X-Box fans that got fucked. PC fans can configure damn near everything. It hasn't been out for a week, and most of these issues have been repaired. Naming save games is probably right around the corner, if it's not already out.

TBH, since you can name save games via the console command 'save GameName', the naming is pretty much a non-issue now too.

@ Solik: Thanks, I'll look into that. I believe our own Balor contributed to that.

@ VenomByte: Understood, but how intuitive is that? Why couldn't a system like Morrowind's have been implemented? I don't know XML, nor am I a programmer by any stretch of the imagination, but if Linux can have several different GUIs, why can't a game like Oblivion? Same functionality, but in a configuration that caters the strengths of the platform. I can see how the existing UI probably works like a dream on consoles. Since as long as I remember, interfacing with a menu system on a console game is done with B (or whatever symbol is equivilant on the PS*), and the D-Pad. I can see why XB360 players are happy. I don't fault them. I do fault Bethesda for not coming up with an OOB solution for the PC version. I'm glad the modding community is stepping up to the plate, but to continue the analogy, they're just pinch hitting when they don't have to.

-D4
 

Nog Robbin

Scholar
Joined
Jan 24, 2006
Messages
392
Location
UK
I think the question should be whether Bethesda will even be *allowed* to leave these back door fixes in for PC users in future games. As it is the PC experience can be amended to be more suitable for the platform it is on (or to user taste) - including the level od graphical nicety. If this means it ends up *better* on the PC, I can't see MS being too chuffed. Which could mean in any future game those settings just won't be there at all - hardcoded all the way.

Maybe, just maybe, this was Bethesdas way around a sticky situation with Microsoft?

Then again, maybe I'm just losing some of my cynicism?
 

GhanBuriGhan

Erudite
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
1,170
May as well (re)post my own here, on the TES forum it will probably be swept to page 10 before anyone can read it.

Package: The CE is nice, reminds me a lot of the LTR special edition DVD sets. I got it mostly for the guide to the empire, and that’s nicely done. The coin – the design and portrait keeps reminding me of Lenin (http://members.surfeu.at/horvath/iwan2.jpg)

Installation: The installation went nice and fast. However it locked up on starting the DirectX installation. First time that ever happened to me. However the game started up without problems after a reboot. My 7900GT was not recognized by the system profiler, so I had to manually adjust to higher settings, which I did right away (and was positively impressed with the number of settings and sliders).

Creating my Breton character was quite a joy. Facegen isn’t all that easy to use, but some experimenting yielded a face I really liked. The prison escape series was nicely done, however the class suggestion (bard!) was pretty off. It’s something I thought would be a problem: of course people will want to try out all the gameplay options in the intro, so most folks will get a jack of all trades class suggestion.

The dungeons generally looks great of course, but during the intro came my first graphical disappointments. Faces look hideous with self-shadowing enabled, so I had to turn that off. Speaking of shadows, I hate to bring this tired topic up again, but I think the absence of shadows from architecture and larger statics keeps Oblivion from really looking that “next gen” – in dungeons and cities it looks a lot like MW, actually. This is obvious in contrast to the places with shadows (under trees), which really lifts the graphics above the ordinary, while chests and items often seem to float because they cast no shadows. I accept its impossible with current hardware, but it lessens the visual leap next-gen was supposedly to bring. Texture stretching occurs relatively frequently and looks worse because the mapping effect don’t take well to the stretching. I also get a weird checkerboard effect on some surfaces (e.g. cobblestone in Chorrol) that looks like a shader glitch to me – It makes textures look extremely low-res somehow. Another slight disappointment in the starting dungeon was the goblins just standing or wandering around. I had expected them to be more animated and, well, to be doing goblin stuff. Sound was great, especially the surface sensitive footstep sounds were done really well. Music is blending in well, creating the right mood but nothing more – well suited for a long game such as this, I think.

Finally out of the dungeon began a real rollercoaster ride of emotions. At first I was elated with the view and the night sky. Then I noticed that the textures on the hill opposite were really looking as badly low-res as some previews had hinted at (I don’tmind this effect at all on the really distant mountains, but it starts rather close by, and there are very visible seams between low and high res textures). In addition there is this very obvious tiling of high res landscape textures. The real shock came as I moved closer, and a whole hillside of blurry texture suddenly popped into high res. I was stunned and felt my stomach sinking – I still can’t quite grasp how Bethesda could be satisfied with this “solution” in a game that otherwise has so much beauty in it. To soothe my nerves I turned around and walked up the hill a bit and enjoyed a breathtaking sunrise over the lake and the distant mountains.
This kind of summarizes my feeling for Oblivions graphics, I have never felt such a disparity between breathtakingly beautiful and terribly jarring moments in a game before. I walk through the lush forest, the shadows of the leaves play on the ground and on my swords blade, a butterfly flutters by, I glimpse views of distant mountains in the blue haze far away, birds chirp – and I am truly transported to Tamriel like never before, what an incredible achievement! Then suddenly I walk uphill and a whole hillside changes its texture from blurry lush green to grey rock and yellowish dried grass texture. Should they not at least fade in, like the grass effect does? Or a whole ruin lazily pops into view, building by building, and rather close (again it doesn’t fade in, as I was convinced it would). As an effect I spent the rest of my first night with Oblivion tweaking the ini to increase texture draw distance and reduce pop-in as much as I could (with some success). To be fair, there are large portions of the game (within forests) where these problems never become apparent. You can walk all the way from the imperial city to Kvatch and almost never become aware of it. But walk up the mountains, and they get pretty bad. The disparity continued with faces. Some are totally convincing, convey character and the emotion system is wonderful – these guys are alive! Others just look off, with bad proportions, missing texturing on the “outer parts” of the face, and glaring texture seams at the neck. Same with water – at first it looks nice, but somehow it seems smoother and more unrealistic than MW’s, the rain ripples look less convincing, and my character makes no ripples at all – clearly a step backwards, is it not? In general, I wonder if Oblivion would not have been better off with a bit less ambitious but more cohesive graphical system – although I admit the forests and the view on the distant mountains would be hard to give up once you have seen them.
My first impressions of radiant AI are also a bit mixed. The “unscripted” conversations are sometimes great, sometimes silly. They are best if you only hear bits and pieces from a distance. They can get really annoying if you have several going on at once nearby (since they all stay really loud) as happened to me shortly after leaving the starting dungeon and entering the imperial market district. In general RAI somewhat fails to make the cities feel truly lively. When you meet people they are mostly standing or walking around. There is a lack of “working” animations to give them true life – blacksmiths hammering, bartenders cleaning glasses or preparing food, etc. There are highlights though – people sitting down on a bench, someone practicing marksman skill on a target, a woman walking her dogs, people reading, or sleeping. It just seems too far between especially in the city streets to make the impact it should have made. Still, it’s a huge step up from MW, just not as far as I believed. Greatest moment so far: After a fight a body was left in chorrols street and a guard comes up, kneels down (I thought he was going to pilfer) and says: “Body is still warm. Must be a killer about.”. Cool.
Later, I waited in two pubs for the evening crowd to come in and to have a chat (now that I can sit down with my ale!) but nobody showed up. The rooms remained empty. OK, so I ate some garlic, but surely RAI does not have that keen a sense of smell? It was another sinking feeling moment.
With 15 hours I have still barely scratched the surface of what the game has to offer by ways of quests. My first impressions are again divided. The quest writing in general seems clearly improved. I refused a certain quest in skingard (Pssst! Over here!) and was delighted to be presented with the consequences of my actions the next morning. Several quests seem to have you deal with opposing interests of NPC’s, and the pacing and exitement of the main quest has so far been great. All this is a huge step up from MW. However, the dialogue is still the stepchild. Too often you are given one-liners with no options. If there are options its mostly only for quest branching, you can’t express your character in dialogue at all. Again, I had thought we would see a little more of that kind of stuff. Also the character writing could certainly be better.
[minor spoiler ahead]
For example Martin, a priest all his life, seems a bit too easily convinced when you tell him who he is. I fully expected to have to use a bit of speechcraft here, instead I go IIRC “why would I lie” and he goes like ”yeah, you have helped the guards fight, so you must speak the truth! I’m coming with you!”. Eh???
In general though it is at least better than MW, some characters do make an impact despite the railed conversation.
The magic compass is usually easily ignored, and the quest marker can be set manually. Overall it can be helpful, and is no more a spoiler than MW’s little map. Still it is sometimes used illogically. [Minor Spoiler ahead]
Inside the Oblivion gate in Kvatch, the compass leads you exactly to the prisoner, through the rather maze-like tower structure. Although you have no clear idea where he is. That’s not good.

Speaking of conversation. I love the full audio, but it seems it has taken a heavy toll on the available topics. Most citizens have little of interest to say now, and even less often can you react to what they said. Now only guards can tell me the directions to guilds and stores? Why? If someone tells me a rumor about someone, I can often not ask about that person. Also the “graying out” feature doesn’t fully work. Go to a new city and the topic “directions” is already grayed out, although the guard of course does have something new to say of this city. On the other hand I don’t know how often I heard the same rumour about the mages guild and necromancy and it is lighting up in gold every time I meet a new NPC willing to part with this invaluable piece of information. The “wiki-links” are gone, but there is too little “dialogue tree” to replace it. I can’t ask people about their background anymore, or about general topics (although as a nice touch they sometimes tell their story if you ask them about their hometown). Voiceacting was good in most cases, sometimes excellent (Sean Bean), imperials – sometimes a bit overacted “have you heard about Kvaa-aa-aatch” (with high-pitched fearful voice).
Unfortunately conversations do not seem to be recorded and linked to your journal entries as before (MW with expansions). And sometimes the journal entries are a bit incomplete, so such a feature would still be helpful. Journal entries still have a tendency to push you in one direction: “I now should go and talk to X” even when the dialogue itself seems to suggest more options are available.

The freeform adventuring is very reminiscent of morrowind, random dungeons are easy to find, and so far seem nicely designed, although not exactly huge. The traps are a great addition – however so far it’s the only thing where the physics tie into the gameplay, other than that it seems cosmetic. Eyelid dungeons really look gorgeous (if such can be said of monster filled dark pits).
The land is almost a bit too harmless right now, with a few wolves and skittish deer. I found myself using the fast travel already a few times, although I do enjoy strolling through the forests, too. It’s great meeting other travelers on the road now, and seeing the occasional RAI action with guards fighting robbers.

Combat is really improved, it feels great, and manual blocking adds much needed player involvement, IMHO. I also enjoy the quick magic casting a lot. With multiple foes things can get a bit frantic, but that’s maybe a given. Magic certainly has been given some great visual effects. I love the new “predator” invisibility effect on opponents, fire spells look great etc. If streamlining was so important that levitation and mark&recall had to bite the dust, I wonder though why there are still so many “drain skill” spells on sale – I never found those at all useful – same is true for 5% shield spells for 10 seconds…
Combat AI is somewhat, but not terribly improved. Weird things certainly happen. E.g. in a cave I sneaked up to two goblins standing side by side. One notices me and we start fighting, swords clash, the other guy still stands with his back to me, so after a while I take a stab at him: 4x damage for sneak attack! Is he deaf AND blind?

The interface – well I am not very picky with interfaces, it works OK for me. But a great improvement over MW it is not. I do seem to need more clicks to get what I want, and I despise not being able to hotkey each individual tab (I know I can get the inventory or the map with F1-F4, but there are 4 or more tabs in each category). I am also disappointed that they still kept the limit of 8 hotkeys – I have a whole keyboard available here! The font size should be scaled down so I can see more of my inventory at once. And why are there no tooltips for the icons?

So in summary, I had a bit of a rough start with Oblivion. I would say I had a harder time getting into it than with Morrowind, with graphical glitches, and design issues throwing me off course just because it generally looks so good. I am a bit disappointed with the dialogue options I have seen so far, but maybe there is more to come. Exploring the land and the dungeons is better than ever, but maybe it just doesn’t feel as fresh anymore after playing MW for so long (and maybe the lingering knowledge of loot being leveled curbs the motivation a bit, too). I am having fun now after getting used to some things and tweaking the graphics, and I am motivated for the main quest, but some of my expectations were a bit disappointed. Nobody makes huge free fantasy worlds like Bethesda does, and I still love them for it, but the game has kept throwing me off with a number of “little” things that made it hard for me to get into it, because they keep rubbing me the wrong way, and because of the improvements that I expected and that are NOT there. Well, let’s see what the next 50 hours bring. That's a good thing at least, with most other games I would be almost done now, with a TES game I merely started.


So in several things the critics here proved right. Still Oblivion brings some things to the table that I miss in any other game. Oh well.
 

Solik

Scholar
Joined
Jan 24, 2006
Messages
377
Your character should be making ripples. Try walking backwards in shallow water, or third-person view. Could be a bug, I guess.

I agree that more NPCs would be nice. I don't notice any slowdown when they're a lot around, but it's rare for there to be a lot around. Even if they were just generic NPCs that lived in a four-story apartment building and only had "Rumors" and "Imperial City" as options and were tied to no quests. Just to have more people roaming about doing things.
 

Crazy_Vasey

Novice
Joined
Apr 25, 2004
Messages
82
I'd rather have the Daggerfall style masses of randomly generated nobodies than the current 'massive city populated by about a dozen people' system.
 

Excrément

Arbiter
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Messages
1,005
Location
Rockville
GhanBuriGhan said:
May as well (re)post my own here, on the TES forum it will probably be swept to page 10 before anyone can read it.

Package: The CE is nice, reminds me a lot of the LTR special edition DVD sets. I got it mostly for the guide to the empire, and that’s nicely done. The coin – the design and portrait keeps reminding me of Lenin (http://members.surfeu.at/horvath/iwan2.jpg)

CE is a pure joke, pocket guide is nothing but interesting (just a poor geography sum-up), who cares about the septim? and the making-of is boring. it is the first time I buy a CE, it's also the last time.


GhanBuriGhan said:
The freeform adventuring is very reminiscent of morrowind, random dungeons are easy to find, and so far seem nicely designed, although not exactly huge. The traps are a great addition – however so far it’s the only thing where the physics tie into the gameplay, other than that it seems cosmetic. Eyelid dungeons really look gorgeous (if such can be said of monster filled dark pits).

I found some dungeons really, really huge. The more I loot some dungeons the more I enjoy their evil atmosphere.

GhanBuriGhan said:
The land is almost a bit too harmless right now, with a few wolves and skittish deer. I found myself using the fast travel already a few times, although I do enjoy strolling through the forests, too. It’s great meeting other travelers on the road now, and seeing the occasional RAI action with guards fighting robbers.

it's a big improvement that the land is harmless, it was just a pain in Morrowind to be attacked every ten meters...
 

GhanBuriGhan

Erudite
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
1,170
Well, I like the guide, but that's just me. The making of - it was ok, i watched it when I was rather angry at Oblivion after my initial dissapointments, so I wasn't too impressed.

It's good to hear about huge dungeons - that's something to look forward to.
 

Solik

Scholar
Joined
Jan 24, 2006
Messages
377
I've been in two rather large dungeons. One was the Pale Pass quest (which really included two dungeons AND a hidden overworld area -- fantastic quest!). The other was a random Oblivion dungeon, which included two extra towers, three cave systems, a pretty big "overworld" area, and of course the primary tower.
 

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