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Vapourware Zodiac Legion - X-COM and dungeons

Galdred

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
It's completely unrelated but similar name and release time might play into your hand.


It looks like a prody of the anime, though. I don't know what convinced them to double up on the silliness of the Netflix attempt.

The previous one tanked badly iirc:



Regarding the relation, the ones who proposed the Zodiac theme for the game didn't know the serie, but it was my favourite anime as a kid. It had little story, lackluster animation, with a lot of recycled frames, but a very high coolness factor.
 
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Harthwain

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However, I find it strange to have spent so much time on fantasy RPG, on PC or tabletop, and still be totally unable to imagine how an armored fight would look like. I think it is better to have the gameplay reinforce the theme, and for that, some realism is needed.
How do you plan to explain to people how your representation of works, mechanically? King Arthur: Knight's Tale had a Journal containing (among others) sections for "Game Mechanics" and "Status Effects", which was enormously helpful when learning how everything worked:

JOLepmF.jpg
 

Galdred

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
However, I find it strange to have spent so much time on fantasy RPG, on PC or tabletop, and still be totally unable to imagine how an armored fight would look like. I think it is better to have the gameplay reinforce the theme, and for that, some realism is needed.
How do you plan to explain to people how your representation of works, mechanically? King Arthur: Knight's Tale had a Journal containing (among others) sections for "Game Mechanics" and "Status Effects", which was enormously helpful when learning how everything worked:

JOLepmF.jpg
Yes, that is a good idea. We have something similar already, but it is only contextual at the moment. I need to add an index to see all topics.
I probably also need to make the fonts larger.

1676665105547.png
 

Nathaniel3W

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Galdred about that helmet from The Last Duel, there was some "making of" feature that addressed that. Adam Driver and Matt Damon did a lot of their own stunts. Ridley Scott wanted everyone to see that Driver and Damon were actually in there. And he especially didn't want anyone thinking "Wait. Which guy is which?" Sometimes in order to make something work on screen, you have to sacrifice realism.

Other movies have done a lot worse with the realism of their fights. I was going to start listing them,* but really, any swordfight on screen for the last 20+ years has been less realistic than The Last Duel. I think Scott did a pretty good job of staying realistic and making only minimal sacrifices to make it cinematic.

As for how people can be so immersed in fantasy settings and still be ignorant of real armored fighting, that's because fantasy settings don't actually teach anything about armored fighting. And unless you're specifically creating a gritty, realistic, low-fantasy world, then the realism of your fights doesn't matter.

I have a friend who has been trying to start writing his great fantasy novel for decades. And all he does is research. (He often shares videos from the same creators you linked above.) He asked his circle of friends once about how we think the cross-section of a sword would differ if it had to cut dragon scales. And I told him "It doesn't matter! No one will care but you!" Focus on character development and storytelling techniques. Make a good story and no one will care about the cross-section of the blade. No one will care if an arrow from a longbow can penetrate armor at 100 paces. Those details will only matter if they are in service to the story, and then instead of making the story bend to realism, you should bend realism to fit the story.

* I actually kind of do want to discuss movie sword fights though. I think a couple duels from Game of Thrones were good. A lot of the Lord of the Rings fights were fun, but a lot extended into the realm of silly. Maybe that's a topic worthy of its own thread.
 

Harthwain

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@Galdred about that helmet from The Last Duel, there was some "making of" feature that addressed that. Adam Driver and Matt Damon did a lot of their own stunts. Ridley Scott wanted everyone to see that Driver and Damon were actually in there. And he especially didn't want anyone thinking "Wait. Which guy is which?" Sometimes in order to make something work on screen, you have to sacrifice realism.
Reminds of why the Game of Thrones TV series changed Robert Arryn to Robin Arryn. The explanation was they didn't want to confuse viewers. Frankly, I find that ridiculous and difficult to believe - how can you confuse a fat guy with a beard with a kid?

You absolutely could differentiate between two knights. How? Coat of arms. You can find one for Jean de Carrouges and another for Jacques Le Gris (whether they are historical or made-up is a separate matter). Another thing - colours. Knights wearing a surcoat and their horeses wearing a caparison are there for a reason: to help identify a knight by showing their coat of arms and colours. For helmets (aside from different shapes of these) you had things such as plumes, cloaks and crests.

Considering we're talking about jousting, all of that applies here. Which is why I am not buying the argument that "they gave them weird half-face helmets, because there was no other way to tell them apart". Bullshit. They just went low-effort, because they didn't want to make proper jousting costumes. What a missed chance to make something actually colourful and interesting...

Edit:

As for how people can be so immersed in fantasy settings and still be ignorant of real armored fighting, that's because fantasy settings don't actually teach anything about armored fighting. And unless you're specifically creating a gritty, realistic, low-fantasy world, then the realism of your fights doesn't matter.
It is also because often you don't have any actual control over the style you're fighting with. At best it comes down to what kind of weapon you use. Very few games give you actual moves or go in-depth.

I have a friend who has been trying to start writing his great fantasy novel for decades. And all he does is research.
Sounds like somebody I know. He pretends to write a historical novel. I say "pretends", because he - too - only does research. If you can even call it that.
 
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mediocrepoet

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You absolutely could differentiate between two knights. How? Coat of arms. You can find one for Jean de Carrouges and another for Jacques Le Gris (whether they are historical or made-up is a separate matter). Another thing - colours. Knights wearing a surcoat and their horeses wearing a caparison are there for a reason: to help identify a knight by showing their coat of arms and colours. For helmets (aside from different shapes of these) you had things such as plumes, cloaks and crests.

Considering we're talking about jousting, all of that applies here. Which is why I am not buying the argument that "they gave them weird half-face helmets, because there was no other way to tell them apart". Bullshit. They just went low-effort, because they didn't want to make proper jousting costumes. What a missed chance to make something actually colourful and interesting...
As you say, different colours, different helm styles. Even something stupid like just having an open face helm with no visor (or a visor that's sometimes flipped up) would've been better than that gay half face helm thing. Who came up with that?

The duel sequence was still pretty bad ass anyway though.
 

Galdred

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Galdred about that helmet from The Last Duel, there was some "making of" feature that addressed that. Adam Driver and Matt Damon did a lot of their own stunts. Ridley Scott wanted everyone to see that Driver and Damon were actually in there. And he especially didn't want anyone thinking "Wait. Which guy is which?" Sometimes in order to make something work on screen, you have to sacrifice realism.

Other movies have done a lot worse with the realism of their fights. I was going to start listing them,* but really, any swordfight on screen for the last 20+ years has been less realistic than The Last Duel. I think Scott did a pretty good job of staying realistic and making only minimal sacrifices to make it cinematic.

That is true, the fight itself is pretty good. It suffers from the same issues as the ones in the King, though, in that both characters wear heavy armor, but still try to cut through each other. At least, they target the head a lot more, which is great. There is a precendence for weird helms. The challenged party could choose the offensive and defensive equipment of the duel, so you could very well settle for some weird half helmet, but you'd need to have a good in universe reason to do so, like maybe having taken lung damage and having a worse time than your opponent breathing with a helmet on, or specializing in thrust to the left of the face.

One historical precedent was the duel between Jarnac and La Châtaignerie in France. Jarnac knew his opponent was much stronger than him, so he requested the duel to happen with a rigid arm protection that would make it impossible to move the left arm at all, so that his opponent would not be able to grapple. His opponent thought about declining, but he was supposed to be the better duelist, so he had to accept the challenge, and died.

As for how people can be so immersed in fantasy settings and still be ignorant of real armored fighting, that's because fantasy settings don't actually teach anything about armored fighting. And unless you're specifically creating a gritty, realistic, low-fantasy world, then the realism of your fights doesn't matter.

I have a friend who has been trying to start writing his great fantasy novel for decades. And all he does is research. (He often shares videos from the same creators you linked above.) He asked his circle of friends once about how we think the cross-section of a sword would differ if it had to cut dragon scales. And I told him "It doesn't matter! No one will care but you!" Focus on character development and storytelling techniques. Make a good story and no one will care about the cross-section of the blade. No one will care if an arrow from a longbow can penetrate armor at 100 paces. Those details will only matter if they are in service to the story, and then instead of making the story bend to realism, you should bend realism to fit the story.


Actually, a good part of what I disliked with Game of Thrones were the things that would obviously make zero sense within the universe premises. I am ok with Valyrian steel going through regular metal like butter, but deploying siege engine forward is a big no (even though the French did just that at Formigny to force the English to advance).
Anyway, my goal is not to make a historical game, but I'd rather have the laws of the universe be the same as ours, with the addition of magic. On top of that, it makes magic more formidable for me if you start without it, and see how it makes a lot of things easier with it (which was something awesome in X-COM), hence why I'd rather have armor do its job. I also am firmly in the school that prefers to have the gameplay mechanics reflect the settings, rather than designing them first, then try to make the theme fit (ie, the Ameritrash vs Euro boardgame design schools).

As for my own research, it was a subject I was always interested in, and most of my research time is spent trying to hit opponents with a longsword, or a sword and a shield, so it also brings side benefits.

* I actually kind of do want to discuss movie sword fights though. I think a couple duels from Game of Thrones were good. A lot of the Lord of the Rings fights were fun, but a lot extended into the realm of silly. Maybe that's a topic worthy of its own thread.

The fights in AGoT range from pretty good, to anime level wtf (especially in Dorne, or with Arya), but several of them were pretty good, though. GRR Martins overvalue being nimble because no armor, though, but being able to attack without risking a lethal counter attack is a huge advantage, but the fights vary so widly that it would require its own thread indeed.
The ones in LoTR were also mostly great,. I just found that the camera was way too quick during mass battles to follow the action.

Also, some other cool medieval fights:


They went a bit overboard with the visor cam, and they also have these big overswing that would accomplish nothing, but they have half swording, wresting, and stunning blows to the face.

Or, this anime, which is totally bonkers, but has cool medieval fighting.

In the case of this animated series, I'd say the medieval battles are the only good part, but it is weird to have a random anime do better than any of the movies ever done about the period.

I think having a realistic world really enhances fiction, and in our case, given that combat is the main element of the game, I'd rather have it follow sensible rules. That said, it is not a duel simulator, so some things will indeed be abstracted.

You absolutely could differentiate between two knights. How? Coat of arms. You can find one for Jean de Carrouges and another for Jacques Le Gris (whether they are historical or made-up is a separate matter). Another thing - colours. Knights wearing a surcoat and their horeses wearing a caparison are there for a reason: to help identify a knight by showing their coat of arms and colours. For helmets (aside from different shapes of these) you had things such as plumes, cloaks and crests.

Considering we're talking about jousting, all of that applies here. Which is why I am not buying the argument that "they gave them weird half-face helmets, because there was no other way to tell them apart". Bullshit. They just went low-effort, because they didn't want to make proper jousting costumes. What a missed chance to make something actually colourful and interesting...
As you say, different colours, different helm styles. Even something stupid like just having an open face helm with no visor (or a visor that's sometimes flipped up) would've been better than that gay half face helm thing. Who came up with that?

The duel sequence was still pretty bad ass anyway though.

Yes, I agree, having very different helms, and coats of arms would have been enough. Also, at one point, one of the knights loses his helmet, which also happen in battle, especially after both fighters end up close.

Now, regarding combat in Zodiac Legion, it won't change that much, because armor already provides great protection, but:
Expose, which is the debuff you get after trying to move away from an opponent, will also be a status effect you can inflict on a feint.
I'll add "tripping enemy" attack (that will simulate grappling or any similar technique), that will be very difficult to execute without support, unless the opponent is exposed, and make the enemy prone/stuned.
Reaching 0 stamina will also make you prone/stuned, and each attack will cause stamina loss, with the impact weapons causing more.

That shouldn't require much change in the code.
 

Nathaniel3W

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I'll add "tripping enemy" attack
I remember a game based on D&D 3.5 where I had a computer-controlled ally. He was a fighter, I think. There was this one place where we had to fight a bunch of snakes. The fighter kept tripping the snakes, who would then have to spend their movement action getting back up.
 

Galdred

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I got stuck in administrative hell, trying to figure out a few things (like getting health coverage and requesting more public funding). I also spent quite a lot of time working on tools to improve our asset generation pipeline.

Anyway, our new cavern tileset is almost complete:

image.png

It still requires some more props, and some setup so that the tiles match each other.

We are planning to add a few creatures from the local folklore:

image.png


Here, the Tarrasque and Coulobre.

Also, our artist modified some of the attacks to add secondary attacks, and thrusting weapons in the future:
South_Attack_Estoc_PlayerHal.gif
South_Attack_Player7.gif
 

Galdred

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
AI generation has been a divisive thing, but we are also running some tests to make assets generation faster:

The chainmail pants has been animated by the AI after the artist draw the first frame only, by mapping it to one of our existing animations:

attack_north_chainmail.gif


Actually, it tries too hard to replicate the details on the reference plate pant, but it is still a huge time saver.
And redoing a single frame, then relaunching the interpolation process (with 2 initial frames instead of one) gives even better results for a fraction of the initial efforts.

It is also great for removing some of the busywork in tileset variations:

result.png

This border tileset has been made only from the "full" border one on the bottom right (next to the blank one), and the existing tilesets as reference.
It means there is now a chance to get a bit more of the planned but cut content done:
This was the initial prototypes before we went with the Zodiac theme:
FvSCu0YX0AAm8rA

They could be repurposed as living armors (pony guy won't be added because it would require a ton of extra work, though).
And here are the initial concepts of the Zodiac knights, most of which had to be cut:

FvSEH2vWcAYGG2V


A good part of them still almost got in, but we might be able to add a few more breastplate/tassets/pauldron variations but clothes that would wrap differently from our existing ones won't be feasible).
That would also allow us to add a few more authentic armors and helmets variations (like a gambeson and kettle helm!).
 

Galdred

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Unfortunately, we met a small micro-issue regarding thursting:




FvsDjUqWAAADCde


Which do you think would work best:

Side stepping:
South_Attack_Player_steps_export_v3.gif

Sliding
South_Attack_Player_ice_skating_v2.gif

jumping attack
South_Attack_Player7_cheat_v3_export.gif

We could also change the angle of attack

Which do you think works best?
 

ERYFKRAD

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Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Can't you just make the thrust angled so it aims at the center of the target hex? Right now it just looks like your dude is thrusting perpendicular to the edge of the hex he is facing.
 

Galdred

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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Can't you just make the thrust angled so it aims at the center of the target hex? Right now it just looks like your dude is thrusting perpendicular to the edge of the hex he is facing.

Yes, our artist just tried, and it looks better indeed:


South_Attack_Estoc_Player_persosouth_quick.gif

Even though the attack stlill looks like a miss that only connects thanks to perspective, it is not too blatantly off the mark
Why is he naked?

Barbarians need no armor (our test character is naked, and everything else is based on him).
 

rojay

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Can't you just make the thrust angled so it aims at the center of the target hex? Right now it just looks like your dude is thrusting perpendicular to the edge of the hex he is facing.

Yes, our artist just tried, and it looks better indeed:


View attachment 36062
Even though the attack stlill looks like a miss that only connects thanks to perspective, it is not too blatantly off the mark
Why is he naked?

Barbarians need no armor (our test character is naked, and everything else is based on him).
How is that different?
 

ERYFKRAD

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Strap Yourselves In Serpent in the Staglands Shadorwun: Hong Kong Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
Can't you just make the thrust angled so it aims at the center of the target hex? Right now it just looks like your dude is thrusting perpendicular to the edge of the hex he is facing.

Yes, our artist just tried, and it looks better indeed:


View attachment 36062
Even though the attack stlill looks like a miss that only connects thanks to perspective, it is not too blatantly off the mark
Why is he naked?

Barbarians need no armor (our test character is naked, and everything else is based on him).
I mean, if you keep the animation intact upto the windup, and just have the thrusting frames angled more towards the target, how does that look?
 

tindrli

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Hexagons and walls don't go too well together, as human constructions usually have 2 strong 90° axe while hexagons have 3 60° axes. For a way around this, we decided to use squished hexagons (for isometric look), and alternating on a 3 sequence, with a bit of shift :
Exemple of hexagonal architecture in project Ragnarok :
YrkQ3SH.png
Looks GREAT. Please consider dooing something with dungeon floors...they look too repetitive and dull
 

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