Your take on mods?

[Daigoji_Gai]

The alien swarm might be pretty awesome from the achievement standpoint, but I am not sure it is something in a genre I'd like to see.

Agreed... and I'll explain why.

Technically, I think it is one of the best looking mods ever created,and it got me thinking what is possible with Valve's Source engine. The top down third person perspective and interface got me thinking - Why won't someone make an X-Com tribute! It seems entirely possible with Source if you have the know-how.

You find that most modders don't venture far from the genre the game is set in. e.g. Lets use this engine and make what we feel is a cooler shooter. Oh lets add these monsters, etc.

They rarely... VERY RARELY ...break through the genre boundaries. (and I am only speaking of games, namely FPS games with released SDKs).

Going back to my X-Com revisited wish, it would be great to see someone take the havoks engine and gfx capabilities and did something that wasn't a FPS-addon. Like an old school strategy game.

EDIT: I take that back. There were two mod dev teams that did take Valve's source engine and didn't make just another FPS.

The first is Darwinia - which won the 2006 Independent Games Festival
http://storefront.steampowered.com/v2/i ... ppId=1500&

The second is Dangerous Waters which is a full on submarine simulation:
http://storefront.steampowered.com/v2/i ... ppId=1600&

 

[suleo]

The second is Dangerous Waters which is a full on submarine simulation:
http://storefront.steampowered.com/v2/i ... ppId=1600&

Dude, there is NO WAY dangerous waters is built on valve's source engine, since it actually predates it and has absolutely nothing to do with it. DW is built on the same engine used for sub command, the previous game by sonalysts.

The fact that it uses steam for *distribution* has nothing to do with what the actual game is built on.

 

[Daigoji_Gai]

The second is Dangerous Waters which is a full on submarine simulation:
http://storefront.steampowered.com/v2/i ... ppId=1600&

Dude, there is NO WAY dangerous waters is built on valve's source engine, since it actually predates it and has absolutely nothing to do with it. DW is built on the same engine used for sub command, the previous game by sonalysts.

The fact that it uses steam for *distribution* has nothing to do with what the actual game is built on.

I stand corrected, but I was under the impression that one of the requirements to participate in STEAM was that the game/product uses the source engine.

 

[bryce777]

The alien swarm might be pretty awesome from the achievement standpoint, but I am not sure it is something in a genre I'd like to see.

Agreed... and I'll explain why.

Technically, I think it is one of the best looking mods ever created,and it got me thinking what is possible with Valve's Source engine. The top down third person perspective and interface got me thinking - Why won't someone make an X-Com tribute! It seems entirely possible with Source if you have the know-how.

You find that most modders don't venture far from the genre the game is set in. e.g. Lets use this engine and make what we feel is a cooler shooter. Oh lets add these monsters, etc.

They rarely... VERY RARELY ...break through the genre boundaries. (and I am only speaking of games, namely FPS games with released SDKs).

Going back to my X-Com revisited wish, it would be great to see someone take the havoks engine and gfx capabilities and did something that wasn't a FPS-addon. Like an old school strategy game.

EDIT: I take that back. There were two mod dev teams that did take Valve's source engine and didn't make just another FPS.

The first is Darwinia - which won the 2006 Independent Games Festival
http://storefront.steampowered.com/v2/i ... ppId=1500&

The second is Dangerous Waters which is a full on submarine simulation:
http://storefront.steampowered.com/v2/i ... ppId=1600&

Yeah, it always seemed strange to me - it is a good point, what mods they choose to make, using what engines.

For example, the toee engine is great in many ways, but people really don't mod for it beyond quashing bugs. One issue is it's hard to make maps, but even using the existing ones tons could be done storywise to make it much better.

There is also no reason not to do what you say with some of these games and just jump genre boundaries - the game companies themselves are largely just hopped up modders, anyhow.

Oh, and havc physics is just retarded, especially as implemented in oblivion. Far better to just use an engine that works for an xcom remake, such as the silent storm one. It would be perfect for an xcom remake; all with would need are some new models and weapons, really. Plus UFOs.

Well, not really, because of the overhead maps and stuff, but combatwise it is fairly close. It is probably not moddable enough, though.

It sort of frustrates me just because the game itself is popular people mod BG like crazy. Problem is, it kind of sucks for mods and the engine is shit. Without the cinematics and bioware writing and art there is no point.

 

[Trash]

Mods (and remakes for that matter) can be good and they can be bad. Most often they start of sounding great and disappear or turn out a whole less good. Still, sometimes there are gems amongst them that return my faith in humanity.

For the moment I'm anxiously awaiting the sith lords restoration project for kotor2. It promises to restore a lot of the cut content and even the nasty and diverse endings obsidian seemed to have worked on before they got in trouble with their schedule. I'm kinda afraid that the mod will disappear because the modders get tired of all the work, or that they put in a lot of shitty fanboi "features". Doesn't stop me from hoping that this mod will make kotor2 the beauty it could have been.....

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Oh, and havc physics is just retarded, especially as implemented in oblivion.

More often than not a feature gets some flak because of how some games implement it but it's not necessarily bad. When playing Deus Ex: Invisible War, I loathed how the Havok physics had been used: there was hardly any worthwhile environmental interaction, most objects were unresponsive, and character movements based on impact were almost cartoon-like in their animations as the physics weren't particularly well implemented. However, the use of Havok in Half-Life 2 was leaps and bounds above what Invisible War had to offer.

From what I gather of Oblivion, it seems to be another game where the system is there only for advertisement purposes rather than anything noteworthy in terms of gameplay.

 

[bryce777]

Oh, and havc physics is just retarded, especially as implemented in oblivion.

More often than not a feature gets some flak because of how some games implement it but it's not necessarily bad. When playing Deus Ex: Invisible War, I loathed how the Havok physics had been used: there was hardly any worthwhile environmental interaction, most objects were unresponsive, and character movements based on impact were almost cartoon-like in their animations as the physics weren't particularly well implemented. However, the use of Havok in Half-Life 2 was leaps and bounds above what Invisible War had to offer.

From what I gather of Oblivion, it seems to be another game where the system is there only for advertisement purposes rather than anything noteworthy in terms of gameplay.

First off, I could care less about the things it supposedly offers. Second, you don't need a fancy physics engine to do that kind of thing anyhow. You just need competent programmers.

 

[suleo]

First off, I could care less about the things it supposedly offers. Second, you don't need a fancy physics engine to do that kind of thing anyhow. You just need competent programmers.

Agreed (about the competence part, it is sorely lacking in those "programmers" these days). In addition, if different people keep getting an implementation of a particular feature wrong then:

1. All of them are idiots (a distinct possibility given the incompetence mentioned above)

2. There is something fundamentally wrong with the design of that feature, or what it is supposed to offer

3. A combination of the two


Personally, I'd go for 3.

 

[kingcomrade]

You just need competent programmers.

...to write a fancy physics engine.

 

[bryce777]

You just need competent programmers.

...to write a fancy physics engine.

No, because you don't need a fancy phyics engine to make a rat not get stuck on a table or keep people from getting caught under the stairs or to have realistic falling speeds.



as to 1,2, 3 - My guess is that it adds something when doing very fancy stuff, but since oblivion is not doing fancy stuff then it is probably actually more work implementing it than doing it without it. The big issues are collisions and syncing it with animation and the physice engine would not help too much with that.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

First off, I could care less about the things it supposedly offers. Second, you don't need a fancy physics engine to do that kind of thing anyhow. You just need competent programmers.

I'm not defending Havok on the pretense that it has added benefits over standard or simpler systems when it comes to gameplay, or that it is better because it is highly advanced. As you said, it doesn't need to be 'fancy' as basic physics systems have been a part of gaming for a long time and have been used numerous times. I'm simply pointing out that the system itself isn't bad or without merit in the face of games - such as Oblivion - which reportedly make little, or good use of it.

 

[suibhne]

My pet peeve with mods is the piss-poor writing that usually accompanies them. I know it's small-minded, but elementary-school spelling and grammar mistakes just blow a mod out of the water for me.

It's not just that modders seem to be merely half-literate, even when they're otherwise really creative. It's also that most mods don't seem to have dedicated writers, even when they have multiple volunteers working on other things. No decent quest mod should ever be released without having at least one person exercise tyrannical oversight over the writing.

 

[Daigoji_Gai]

When playing Deus Ex: Invisible War, I loathed how the Havok physics had been used: there was hardly any worthwhile environmental interaction, most objects were unresponsive, and character movements based on impact were almost cartoon-like in their animations as the physics weren't particularly well implemented. However, the use of Havok in Half-Life 2 was leaps and bounds above what Invisible War had to offer.

Ha! You forgot the zombie corpses. In Invisible War, sometimes the corpses would twict uncontrollably and never stop once the body fell.

I thought it was funny at first (I killed that npc so good his body is having convulsions!)

The joke got old quick...

 

[Daigoji_Gai]

My pet peeve with mods is the piss-poor writing that usually accompanies them. I know it's small-minded, but elementary-school spelling and grammar mistakes just blow a mod out of the water for me.

It's not just that modders seem to be merely half-literate, even when they're otherwise really creative. It's also that most mods don't seem to have dedicated writers, even when they have multiple volunteers working on other things. No decent quest mod should ever be released without having at least one person exercise tyrannical oversight over the writing.

Very true!

 

[kingcomrade]

No, because you don't need a fancy phyics engine to make a rat not get stuck on a table or keep people from getting caught under the stairs or to have realistic falling speeds.

Uh, yes you do. If you have physics in your game you have a physics "engine" because someone has to write the code, it's pretty much self-evident. Unless physics just implement themselves?

 

[voodoo1man]

My pet peeve with mods is the piss-poor writing that usually accompanies them. I know it's small-minded, but elementary-school spelling and grammar mistakes just blow a mod out of the water for me.

It's not just that modders seem to be merely half-literate, even when they're otherwise really creative. It's also that most mods don't seem to have dedicated writers, even when they have multiple volunteers working on other things. No decent quest mod should ever be released without having at least one person exercise tyrannical oversight over the writing.

Nowadays, this problem doesn't seem restricted to amateur projects.

 

[glasnost]

My pet peeve with mods is the piss-poor writing that usually accompanies them. I know it's small-minded, but elementary-school spelling and grammar mistakes just blow a mod out of the water for me.

Yeah, it's really bad when the *download description* itself is a mess. I don't even bother to read about mods that can't be described coherently.

What's irritating about mods is the the hype that some modders like to generate. They're better at PR than they are at making games. Especially at the very beginning of a project, when they have nothing to show for it. Slick websites also seem popular, and they're just as worthless. Don't even *make* a website until you're nearly done with your project. That's the time to start getting the word out. Not in huge 'press releases' which close with pleas for assistance (or for someone do all the actual work, period).

A modder doesn't have suits breathing down his neck, he doesn't need to make a profit, and he's not bound to please any target market. He should take advantage of that and create something worthwhile--quietly. Not hype up vaporware. Leave that to the majors.

Despite the above I really like mods. If a game has solid coregameplay, and an 'environment' that oozes storyhooks/facilitates good storytelling, then modders can extend the life of a game indefinitely with their projects.

Marathon inspired whole new scenarios like Rubicon (very professional and non-linear), Tempus Irae, Trojan, and the upcoming Where Monsters are in Dreams. The gems make up for all the amateur stuff. Mod tools are great, and developers should be encouraged to provide them.

 

[Greatatlantic]

No game can be perfectly suited to all its audiences, and sooner or later developers have to decide whats going in and whats staying out. In this way I don't see modding as a crutch for developers, but as a way for fans to improve the game in ways the developer couldn't imagine or simply couldn't do. A great example of this is Gary's Mod for Half Life 2. Even though I've never worked with it, it basically gives gamers a toolset to turn Steam into their own plaything.

That being said, there are definitely some companies who have released games with the full intention of letting modders make it worthwhile. Here's looking at you NWN. The fact some really bad design desicions require modders to fix them is a very upsetting reality in this industry.

 

[Section8]

I think the advent of modding (which came along in a big way with Quake) is a very good thing. It's basically giving a means for amateurs to develop their ideas using a solid foundation, as opposed to developing from scratch. I've played some pretty fantastic mods in my time.

Also, working on mods was a big thing for me. I started out with a lot of design ideas, and no ability to realise them. But working toward my goals was great practise, and the community inclined nature of modding means that there's generally support to be found. So eventually, my modding efforts were good enough to get me into an actual job.

However, I'm not a big fan of "DIY mod kits" like NWN or The Elder Scrolls games. All they seem to do is decrease the signal to noise ratio by making modding more accessible, and in many cases hobble the more experienced modder.

I guess it's not such a bad thing when appropriate measures were taken, such as reviews and ratings systems for mod repositories, but I think a steeper learning curve serves as a pretty decent filter for higher quality mods.

 

[LlamaGod]

I guess it's not such a bad thing when appropriate measures were taken, such as reviews and ratings systems for mod repositories, but I think a steeper learning curve serves as a pretty decent filter for higher quality mods.

I agree. Some of the lowest of the low available for the easier tools are funny, though.

Like the Morrowind mod that renamed Bretons to Americans and gave them insane stat bonuses. The authors reasoning was 'Americans are the best race in real life'

 

[vazquez595654]

Your take on mods?

If you're playing mods you probably have too much time on your hands.

 

[voodoo1man]

Your take on mods?

If you're playing mods you probably have too much time on your hands.

The same can be said about posting to the Codex. Ahh, I love being a slacker! :D

 

[Rat Keeng]

The gems make up for all the amateur stuff.

Ya ur rite.

I think a steeper learning curve serves as a pretty decent filter for higher quality mods.

Probably, although high quality mods are one thing, high quality content is another. Imoen Romance mod is probably of the highest technical caliber, but it's still a terrible abomination of a mod. Obsessive geeks with nothing better to do will overcome any learning curve, and they'll do everything in their power, to bury the decent stuff in a pile of topless lizards and incestual infatuation mods.

 

[obediah]

Judged on it's own, the more moddable a game is, the better. It's certainly something I like to see well developed. Once you start balancing the resources required to get it out the door against other things - it really falls to a case-by-case basis.

I really enjoyed the mods in SE IV. I also really enjoyed a few mod-only games like Unlimited Adventures, and the Wargame Construction Set when I was a kid. I poked around with Morrowind and NWN toolkits enough to know they were both far from perfect, but pretty damn impressive. Unfortunately, I was bored of Morrowind before decent mods game out, and NWN sucked donkey balls throuh an unflushed sheep intestine straw.

I'm not a FPS person, but there have been some pretty fucking spectacular mods in those games.

And of course developers (and even worse fanbois) using mods as a crutch pisses me off to no end.

Personally, most often an exploration of mods is a frustrating and fruitless endeavor. Most of the games I like don't have a community large enough to hit critical mass, or the modders focus on stuff I have no interest in. Still, I'm not quite so self-important to declare the whole concept rubbish because it doesn't do much for me.

 

[Excrément]

Mods naturally vary in quality based on the modder's skills, Even for Morrowind, the quality varied from looking professional produced to piss poor.

yeah and fire is hot!

If you're playing mods you probably have too much time on your hands.

that makes sense