Putting the 'role' back in role-playing games since 2002.
Donate to Codex
Good Old Games
  • Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.

    "This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.

Whitemithrandir's OBLIVION REVIEW LOLZ 77/100

The_Pope

Scholar
Joined
Nov 15, 2005
Messages
844
Data4 said:
The_Pope said:
Are you trying to say modders don't matter, and that games which help them shouldn't be given praise for doing so? Good modding tools are a feature. Good features should be taken into account when writing reviews.

A game is a game is a game. 99.9% of the people who buy Oblivion won't be modding it. Considering Bethesda didn't even include a copy of the CS on the DVD, I doubt a vast majority of the people who bought Oblivion even knows that mods are/will be available. Out-of-box experience is the only thing applicable for a review, IMHO. If a reviewer wants to give honorable mention to modding tools, that's one thing, but the game-- as originally designed-- should not be judged on potential.

-D4

I'm not saying a game should be judged on what it could be if modders fixed it, sorry if I gave that impression. I'm saying modability is a feature which should be taken into account in reviews, even if only in a minor way. All other things being equal, a game with in depth modding tools is a better buy than one without them.
 

OverrideB1

Scholar
Joined
Oct 15, 2005
Messages
443
Location
The other side of the mirror
The_Pope said:
I'd say a games capability as a modding platform (not the mods available, just how effective the mod tools are) is important and should be factored into the score. If a game makes it easy for people to make mods, thats a plus. If a game provides enough freedom to modders to allow for things like this: http://www.blackcatgames.com/swarm/news rather than limiting them to minor changes then that should be mentioned in reviews.

Bullshit -- a reviewer's job is to review and evaluate the game, not what it's modding potential is, or what it could be if x number of modders make so-and-so mods. As Data4 said: a game should be judged on it's original design, as it comes out of the box.

The truth is, most players of Oblivion either won't be able to use the majority of mods or won't even be aware that there are such things available.
 

mister lamat

Scholar
Joined
Mar 23, 2006
Messages
570
kris said:
Oblivion is nowhere near a PnP experience as for the ones I had. Oblivion is about "what should I do?", not "How should I do it?".

you have a character in an open-ended world, if you want to give them a cause and a personality, actually define your character rather than have situations that define it for you, then it's definately a 'how should i do it' game.
 

Volourn

Pretty Princess
Pretty Princess Glory to Ukraine
Joined
Mar 10, 2003
Messages
24,924
"If a reviewer wants to give honorable mention to modding tools, that's one thing, but the game-- as originally designed-- should not be judged on potential."

Nonsense. Not quite true. If the modding tools are shipped with the game, and are part of the original deisgn they very much are part of the game experience.

Oblivion's toolset is a poor choice since it doesn't come with the game nor is it a focus. On the other hand, a different example is the NWN series where the toolset is very much apart of the actual package as well as a one of the major selling/advertising/hype packages. And, just because the majority of people don't actually use it is irrelevant in this case. Most people don't play gnomes and halfings (unless they play D&D games a lot) so I guess we shouldn't count them either. Or forget about multiple options since most gamers don't play a game more than once so parts most gamers don't play shouldn't coiunt either.


R00fles!
 

The_Pope

Scholar
Joined
Nov 15, 2005
Messages
844
OverrideB1 said:
Bullshit -- a reviewer's job is to review and evaluate the game, not what it's modding potential is, or what it could be if x number of modders make so-and-so mods. As Data4 said: a game should be judged on it's original design, as it comes out of the box.

The truth is, most players of Oblivion either won't be able to use the majority of mods or won't even be aware that there are such things available.

The mod tools are a part of the package. I'm not arguing for reviewing based on what a game could be if modders fixed it, or that a game should get good reviews if the mods are good, I'm saying the quality of mod tools should be a factor in reviews. Mods counting for reviews is bad, modability counting is good. As for the argument that most players don't mod or use mods, most players just want to get ph4t l3wt and couldn't give a shit about dialogue or meaningful choice - should reviews gloss over weak roleplaying elements and fuss about graphics for several pages?
 

mckracken

Novice
Joined
Mar 11, 2006
Messages
16
How can one name a game all-time favorite when surely even the most hardcore "Torment" lovers must concede that combat (the very core of a game according to the reviewer)

was really weak and dull.

Marks the guy as not very objective in my opinion.
 

crufty

Arcane
Joined
Jun 29, 2004
Messages
6,383
Location
Glassworks
I thought the review was more objective than any other review to date--so the reviewer likes Planescape; by announcing the bias, it's easier for US to be objective about the review.

Also, I found it to be one of the better reviews, and clinches an Oblivion purchase for me by what I didn't see--crashes, obvious bugs, etc etc etc. The decision isn't whether or not to buy Oblivion, but how do I run it? AMD 2600 / 9800. Is it even worth it?

So no purchase yet.
 

Data4

Arcane
Joined
Sep 11, 2005
Messages
5,531
Location
Over there.
Volourn said:
"If a reviewer wants to give honorable mention to modding tools, that's one thing, but the game-- as originally designed-- should not be judged on potential."

Nonsense. Not quite true. If the modding tools are shipped with the game, and are part of the original deisgn they very much are part of the game experience.

Oblivion's toolset is a poor choice since it doesn't come with the game nor is it a focus. On the other hand, a different example is the NWN series where the toolset is very much apart of the actual package as well as a one of the major selling/advertising/hype packages. And, just because the majority of people don't actually use it is irrelevant in this case. Most people don't play gnomes and halfings (unless they play D&D games a lot) so I guess we shouldn't count them either. Or forget about multiple options since most gamers don't play a game more than once so parts most gamers don't play shouldn't coiunt either.


R00fles!

Actually, I agree with you about NWN. Since the game was first announced, it was touted as primarily a DM's toolset, and from what I gather, it does that fairly well. Oblivion's tagline-- in fact, that of the entire Elder Scrolls series-- is "Live another life, in another world", not "Think our game sucks? Here's our tools. Build your own."

So, in that respect, my argument stands.

-D4
 

HardCode

Erudite
Joined
Aug 23, 2005
Messages
1,138
The_Pope said:
Are you trying to say modders don't matter, and that games which help them shouldn't be given praise for doing so? Good modding tools are a feature. Good features should be taken into account when writing reviews.

Sure, the fact that a game has modding capabilities can be looked at and give the review a plus. However, if someone made a mod to fix game faults, the score should be MINUS points, not plus points, because that just shows the developers COULD have done the right thing, but they chose not to.

Using mith's review here, he could have added +10 points for the fact that the game can be heavily modded. However, there would be -2 for font size because a modder fixed that, -2 for the quest compass not having a toggle because a modder fixed that, -2 for leveled list scheme because a modder fixed that, etc, etc, etc.
 

whitemithrandir

Erudite
Joined
Jul 15, 2004
Messages
1,116
mckracken said:
How can one name a game all-time favorite when surely even the most hardcore "Torment" lovers must concede that combat (the very core of a game according to the reviewer)

was really weak and dull.

Marks the guy as not very objective in my opinion.

I made a small comment in there about Oblivion's story compared to Planescape: Torment. It didn't stand up.

No other references to Ps:T were made in the actual review. I didn't make any comparisons elsewhere between OB and Planescape: Torment. All the observations I made about Oblivion's combat are a reflection of my playing time and not in the least biased because I played Planescape: Torment or Fallout. I don't think you'll want to read an RPG review written by a guy who hasn't played Planescape: Torment or Fallout.


RE: the +1 for moddability, I thought a +1 was just about the right amount to stress that Oblivion IS a moddable game. Does it make the game significantly better? Maybe, but it shouldn't have any significant impact on a review.

Nor should it go unnoticed.
 

Mefi

Prophet
Patron
Joined
Apr 7, 2005
Messages
1,364
Location
waiting for a train at Perdido Street Station
Only played a few hours so far (busy time right now).

Hating the interface. A lot. Might work better if I was playing on the Xbox but not done that yet.

Cluedo quest is mildly amusing. Not much else has tickled my fancy in the quests yet.

Not sure what to make of it right now. It isn't a bad game. But it sure isn't a good RPG.
 

The_Pope

Scholar
Joined
Nov 15, 2005
Messages
844
HardCode said:
Sure, the fact that a game has modding capabilities can be looked at and give the review a plus. However, if someone made a mod to fix game faults, the score should be MINUS points, not plus points, because that just shows the developers COULD have done the right thing, but they chose not to.

Using mith's review here, he could have added +10 points for the fact that the game can be heavily modded. However, there would be -2 for font size because a modder fixed that, -2 for the quest compass not having a toggle because a modder fixed that, -2 for leveled list scheme because a modder fixed that, etc, etc, etc.

Thats pretty much how I'd factor in modding in a review. Maybe not a full +10 for TESCS though, as it is a rather limited modding system when compared to the kinds of things games like Half Life, UT or Quake will let modders do. Compared with that it gets about +6.
 

Lumpy

Arcane
Joined
Sep 11, 2005
Messages
8,525
Actually, a game should receive some points for modability. Not more than 5 though. But Oblivion would deserve a 4/5 for modability.
 

whitemithrandir

Erudite
Joined
Jul 15, 2004
Messages
1,116
Lumpy said:
Actually, a game should receive some points for modability. Not more than 5 though. But Oblivion would deserve a 4/5 for modability.

I gave it a +1. That's good enough.
 

Daigoji_Gai

Scholar
Joined
Mar 24, 2006
Messages
261
whitemithrandir said:
Lumpy said:
Actually, a game should receive some points for modability. Not more than 5 though. But Oblivion would deserve a 4/5 for modability.

I gave it a +1. That's good enough.

Again good show Whitemithrandir...

Cheers!
 

Krafter

Scholar
Joined
Feb 22, 2006
Messages
297
Location
Castle Amber
I'm a little late to the party Whitemithrandir, but great review.

It seems to be well-thought out and is better than most of the 'professional' sites reviews. Nice job. :)
 

Data4

Arcane
Joined
Sep 11, 2005
Messages
5,531
Location
Over there.
Daigoji_Gai said:
whitemithrandir said:
Lumpy said:
Actually, a game should receive some points for modability. Not more than 5 though. But Oblivion would deserve a 4/5 for modability.

I gave it a +1. That's good enough.

Again good show Whitemithrandir...

Cheers!

Anyone else get the impression this guy is going from thread to thread, sucking virtual cock?

-D4
 

whitemithrandir

Erudite
Joined
Jul 15, 2004
Messages
1,116
Data4 said:
Anyone else get the impression this guy is going from thread to thread, sucking virtual cock?

-D4

Hey, as long as he doesn't send me a bill at the end of the month...
 
Joined
Aug 4, 2005
Messages
66
Location
I live in your mind.
Hi, good review, there were afew things I disagree with, but it was pretty good. Just want to point out afew things I don't realy disagree with:

Magical combat, however, is somewhat limited and feels too much like a first person shooter. I literally find myself circle strafing the enemy while attempting to lead my target with fireballs, just like my Q3 RA days. Though some might argue this isn't such a bad thing, I think it limits the potential of the game and breaks the immersion somewhat. (-2)

OK, first thing I sorta disagree with. In a game that is first person, how else is magical combat suposed to feel? The fact that it felt kinds FPSish was good imho, and is a nice break from the melee combat, which as you said, is a little to fast and hacky. If they had slowed combat down to about the speed of mount and blade more of the stratagy would have shown through.

BUT, thankfully, I just found a mod that increases arrow damage to an acceptable level. Huzzah! The game is extremely moddable, which lets the community do a lot of tweaking and modding. However, as this review is about the game that comes right out of the box, this feature will be noted with a slight point shift. (+1)

Only +1 point for modability? I would argue that the customability of the game is an "out of the box" feature I'd give it at least a +10 for modability, as many of your UIA gripes were fixed with mods already, and the potential is huge, considering this game has only been out for afew weeks now.

Oblivion's sneaking model isn't as robust as it could be. The enemies seem all too omniscient for me, and I swear they can sense me through the walls, even when I have 58 points in sneaking, wearing full light armor and padded boots. It gets difficult telling which parts are "shadowy" and which parts will make you stick out like a sore thumb, and sometimes these "zones" seem all too arbitrary. (-3)

I play a stealth character and am having no problems with sneaking. The fact that it's a "spotted, not spotted" icon dose seem to give the impression of an invisible line is bad, but overall sticking to the darkest areas of the room and trying to be behind (or at least to the side of) an enemy seams to keep you hidded, which is as it should be. I would still give it a -2 for having the eye be so abrupt (Rather have it fade in and out depending on how LIKELY you are to be spotted based on your light/los/skill/armor)

Size 36 font? I feel like I'm in the large print section of my local bookstore, where old ladies with oversized bifocals dwell. Do we really NEED font sizes this big? We're not blind, you know.(-1)

Takes entirely way too many clicks and hotkeys to get where I want, be it my inventory, map, or skill list. (-1)


I feel your pain, and agree utterly.

I can't zoom in on my map? What? (-1)

I don't care too much about that, and don't see why it would be of use, as neither of them are cluttered enough for it to be of much use.

Only 8 quickspell slots? Even Morrowind had 10. What's up with that? (-1)

Unfortunetely the interface was designed for the damned Xbox 360, which isn't even selling well. Same reason why they have the stupidly large fonts, and why you can only have about 6 items on the screen at once.

What's with the generic item icons? Where's the description for the items? Can't drop quest items? What's with that? They're just cluttering my inventory. At least they don't carry weight. (-1)

Quest items aren't so bad, but the lack of descriptions is frustrating.

The majority of quests still follow the classic objectives of Fed Ex and Hitman, and pretty much involve little more than "Go there, fetch that item, bring it back to me" or "Go there, kill that guy, and report back to me". There is very little in terms of quest variety. There are a few quests about investigation, where you actually have to talk to various people, but since the compass points exactly at the person you have to talk to and "investigation" usually amounts to clicking on the corresponding wiki dialogue, much of the intrigue is gone. (-5)

Considering the amount of quests in the game, the lack of creative objectives isn't so much a problem as it's still fun to do most of them. Examples include many of the early dark brotherhood quests, a brush with death, and the one with the guy stuck inside his own dream; they are very standard in their objectives (Hotman, and two go fetch quests respectively), but the execution is where the fun lies, not always with multiple options, but with fun and cool methods. Also the thing is there are quite afew non standard quests, it's just there are plenty of stanard ones too. Ivestigating/looking for info isn't that in-depth, but then again asking computer controlled NPCs for info get's boring quickly (in any game), so the dumbing down was very welcome.

Further more, with the exception of a few select quests, there's one and only one way to solve any given quest: by going to the place, beating everything up, and completing your objective. This completely destroys the whole Choice and Consequence deal that should be the backbone of any RPG. It makes the player feel like he's just going along for the ride, with nothing at stake, and no impact whatsoever on the outcome. (-15)

The first part I actually agree with, but this bit is rubbish. Quite afew quests had some ways to get your objective without smashing everything up. Granted the alternative most of the time was sneaking but I found quite afew fun ways to divate from some of the sugested ways of doing things. Not going to spoil them for you though ;)

The NPCs, like Morrowind, still use the whole wiki-dialogue system, which really doesn't help with making any of them memorable. This time around, however, there are even LESS wiki-options than Morrowind, which doesn't really help either. Most of the NPCs still seem soulless with zero personality what-so-ever. The fact that they walk around and do stuff because of Radiant AI just makes them seem even more robotic and bland. (-3)

The system makes searching for information alot easier, and it's preferable to loads of NPCs with the same dialoug tree with the same exact options. I don't know, but seeing the same topics dosn't seam as bad as seeing the same entire lines of dialouge. Granted, many will say the same thing, but the greying out means you don't have to hear it if you don't want to. Also the RAI hardly makes them more robotic. Also there were quite afe memorable NPCs (paranoid elves, those crazy bravil skooma addicts, the dark brotherhood guys, one of the Cheydinhal innkeepers, ect...I could list more, but the list would be too long), probably just as manny as are in other RPGs, it's just that there is also alot of filler. I wouldn't give it a negitive or a positive in this catagory

Now, you may not be able to roleplay a spear wielding cavalier, a levitating teleportating mage, or a savvy diplomat, one thing you CAN roleplay is a cartographer or a surveyor. (What, not everyone wanted to be astronauts when they were kids.) Oblivion's Cyrodil is HUGE. The landmass is easily larger than Morrowind, with lots of nook and crannies for the player to stumble upon and explore. After all, a large, freeroaming landmass IS the trademark of any TES game, and Oblivion delivers on this front beautifully. Yes, the world may FEEL smaller due to fast travel and horses, but if you actually go out and actively explore, you'll get a much better grasp of how large and varied it really is. (+5)

I would give more of a bonus, just because of how dense the world is with areas of interest. Exploring is arguably the biggest part of the game. I'd give it a +10 for this.

However, the compass puts a pretty big dent on the satisfication of finding that obscure cave or bandit hideout, as everything in a 3 mile radius is lit up quite succinctly on your compass. What do I do? Post-it. (-2)

Alot of the things you wouldn't find without the compass. The ruins are easy to find, but the caves and mines are quite hard to find on thier own.

The Journal system is also in need of optimization. The quests are collated in chronological order, but sometimes, when you have so many current quests, or need to search for a specific completed quest, a different sorting order (for example, alphabetically) would have been just grand. Unfortunately, no such option is given. Unlike Morrowind, the specific dialogue associated with the quest is NOT SAVED in your journal. I sometimes wish that it were. (-2)

I think the journal system works quite well, and the lack of sorting features never was much of a problem as I never realy had more than 8 active quests. Since everything is sorted by quest it is actually very easy to manage, and never was the least bit confusing.

Oblivion is a wonderful action/adventure/exploration game, and not so much a roleplaying game. It's very easy to dive into this game and just have plain, unadulterated FUN, and that, I think, is THE most important part of a game. In that aspect, Oblivion shines as one of the greats.

I agree...now, if is suceeds so wonderfully in that, what is the problem? I mean, that is the point of the game. Critisizing it for "lack of RPGishness" is silly considering that there is so much varience within the genre. There are the good old (and prettymuch extinct) hardcore RPGs like wasteland and daggerfall, there are japanese RPGs (boo) that are esentialy movies with random turn battle sequences, modern RPGs that are just annoying hackfests, ect... Anyways I wouldn't clasify oblivion as a hardcore RPG, but it isn't a hackfest either. It for the mostpart suceeds in bringing the depth of a hardcore RPG to the fun of an action game (note a full blown action game, not some silly action RPG)

One last thing to note: I am suprised you didn't mark it down for much of it's clothing merges.The fact that robes couldn't be worn over armor was annoying, and the commonness of 1-peice suits bugged the hell out of me. Combigning paulddrons with the ciurass didn't bug me, nore did combigning the left and right glove, but they couldn't just leave it at that and mix everything up from there. My 1-peice dark brotherhood suit bugs me the most- I mean, it looks pretty cool, but the fact that I can't realy customize my character's apearance beyond that is annoying.
 

galsiah

Erudite
Joined
Dec 12, 2005
Messages
1,613
Location
Montreal
Screaming_Dude_In_Vegas said:
...In a game that is first person, how else is magical combat suposed to feel?...
Like magic perhaps.
Think of two mages in a magical battle in a fantasy setting... What's the first image that comes to mind? I'm guessing it's not both mages legging it to the right, circle strafing as they "fire" spells in straight lines at one-another.

Personally, when I think of mage duels, I think of tactical / strategic magical contests where the mages mostly stand still, but use a variety of magical powers to best their opponent. By variety, I don't mean lightning / fire / cold, I mean techniques which actually do different, interesting things, which need to be countered thoughtfully.
Running like hell really shouldn't be a major part of magical duels.

Even if magical duels were usualy thought of as being strafing, spell firing contests, the mere fact that this makes them fell exactly like an FPS should be enough to make the designers think "Let's do something different". Whatever a magical duel should feel like, it shouldn't be a re-skinned FPS.

Only +1 point for modability? I would argue that the customability of the game is an "out of the box" feature I'd give it at least a +10 for modability, as many of your UIA gripes were fixed with mods already, and the potential is huge, considering this game has only been out for afew weeks now.
Most of the useful mods at the moment are along the lines of:
Great - feature X that sucked badly is now fixed!!

A game should get good marks for modability if it gives wide ranging potential to modders, but not if it merely allows them (sometimes) to fix broken parts of the game - however welcome those fixes might be.
As far as giving marks for modability goes, I'd say that both Morrowind and Oblivion get average marks. They're good for content creation (i.e. more of the same), but not good if you want to do anything really different - even if it's only one isolated feature you want to change.

TESCS is designed only for use as a content creation tool by Bethesda, and then released as is afterwards. For it to get high marks for modability, some thought would need to go into adding versatility specifically for modders. This wouldn't mean any major differences - for example, just a day or two spent adding (or not removing) some simple, but useful scripting functions. For example, removing while loops from the scripting language just seems to be treating modders (or Bethesda designers) like children: this useful tool could be misused, so we'll take it away.
Similarly, how hard would it have been to add (or not remove?) the GetSoundPlaying function? Sure, it's an ugly workaround most of the time, but a damn useful one.

Perhaps it wouldn't make sense for Bethesda to spend money improving the CS for modders, but in that case they really don't deserve high marks for modability. It's great that they release the CS, but it's a shame they don't add a bit more than they need.
 

Twinfalls

Erudite
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
3,903
Question for people who've played it - I see no mention of the wondrous script-effect and all the myriad spell possibilities it was to allow in the game. Are there any interesting or remotely imaginative uses of it in the game?

edit: oh, and Galsiah speaks the truth in the post above. Very well put Galsiah, on all the points you make.
 

galsiah

Erudite
Joined
Dec 12, 2005
Messages
1,613
Location
Montreal
Not yet - I'm not sure my PC would even start the game. I really need to upgrade first.

I think Twinfalls means uses of the script effect that are in the standard game. MSFD commented that their designers had done some nifty stuff with it at some point. I have no idea, since I don't have the game.

There certainly is a lot of potential though Twinfalls. It is quite simple to get a reference to any NPC / Creature hit with a script effect (and not too hard to hit everything if you want to). Once you have a reference, almost anything is possible. Getting everything to work smoothly for the more interesting ideas might be tricky though. [getting references to items - e.g. tables / weapons / rocks... -, seems not to be possible in most situations, which is a little annoying.]
I'm sure there'll be some very interesting mods using script effects - even if they aren't used that imaginatively in the standard game.
 

Twinfalls

Erudite
Joined
Jan 4, 2005
Messages
3,903
Yes, I'm asking about the original content (OC) only. This game must be judged on its OC, for that is what the developers were touting with their hype.
 

DarkUnderlord

Professional Throne Sitter
Staff Member
Joined
Jun 18, 2002
Messages
28,358
The_Pope said:
As for the argument that most players don't mod or use mods, most players just want to get ph4t l3wt and couldn't give a shit about dialogue or meaningful choice - should reviews gloss over weak roleplaying elements and fuss about graphics for several pages?
You've missed all the Oblivion reviews so far, haven't you? Because that's what they're doing...
 

As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.
Back
Top Bottom