What's an RPG? - the search for clue continues!

[Sarvis]

Sarvis...

The puzzle he gave you is an old mathematical puzzle called Hilbert's hotel.

I gave the correct answer...you didnt. Go sit at the little kiddy table.

Actually... 5 seconds of Googling turned <a href="http://beattie.info/notebook/1008254.html">this</a> up:

<i>To help explain the mystery of infinity, Hilbert created an example of infinity, known as Hilbert’s Hotel. This hypothetical hotel has the desirable attribute of having an infinite number of rooms. One day a new guest arrives and is dissapointed to learn that, despite the hotel’s infinite size, all the rooms are occupied. Hilbert, the clerk, thinks for a while and then reassures the new arrival that he will find an empty room. He asks all his current guests to move to the next room, so that the guest in room 1 moves to room 2, the guest in room 2 moves to room 3 and so on. Everybody who is in the hotel still has a room, which allows the new arrival to slip into the vacant room 1. This shows that infinity plus one equals infinity. Similarly, infinity subtract one is infinity, and indeed infinity subtract one million is still infinity.</i>

Sounds a lot more like my answer, except he moved everyone forward and put the new guy at the beginning. The point is that both his answer and mine relies on the fact that there is always one more.

You may have been thinking about the second part of the puzzle, where an infinite BUS shows up and he does the double room number thing. The point of the second part is that multiplying infinity by any number, 2 in this case, is still infinity.



So yeah, when you try to insult me you might want to try actually being right. Or at least answering the actual question.

 

[Diogo Ribeiro]

Examples for reactive world: You keep drawing water out of a town well.

In a good RPG it goes dry, the townspeople react, and the player faces new consequences and unforeseen events.

In a game with weak RPG elements: it goes dry, the townspeople say something about it in passing and it never comes up again.

In a strategy game: The well goes dry, the player can't get water anymore.

In an adventure game: To advance the plot, the only way is to drain the well.

In a Bioware game: You ask for money upfront before fixing the well, then insult everyone. The endgame slides mention that the town was overjoyed by your help.

 

[Drakron]

My solution is better, they would just kill one of the guests and made the new guest take his room.

 

[DarkSign]

Yea!!! Its war of the Googles.

Except I didnt have to Google to answer. I'm smarter than you and have studied more math than you.

However, lets use it to prove the dumbfuck wrong:

"The old infinite-hotel puzzle (also known as "Hilbert's Hotel" after Hilbert the mathematician) begins to give us the answer. In a hotel containing infinitely many rooms, all of which are full, how do you find room for infinitely many new guests? Simply move every guest to the room with twice the number."

Thats from the site I found on Google.

Your place at the back of the shortbus has been color-coded to help you find it, Sarv.

 

[Sarvis]

Yea!!! Its war of the Googles.

Except I didnt have to Google to answer.

However, lets use it to prove the dumbfuck wrong:

"The old infinite-hotel puzzle (also known as "Hilbert's Hotel" after Hilbert the mathematician) begins to give us the answer. In a hotel containing infinitely many rooms, all of which are full, how do you find room for infinitely many new guests? Simply move every guest to the room with twice the number."

Thats from the site I found on Google.

Your place at the back of the shortbus has been color-coded to help you find it, Sarv.

Like I said, read the question given. ONE traveller shows up and needs a room. ONE TRAVELLER. ONE. 1. 0<numTravellers<2. Uno.

Not infinite people showing up. ONE. It's a different part of the puzzle.


You want to keep answering the wrong question, go ahead.

And of course, I didn't have to google to answer either. Only to point out that you're an idiot.

 

[DarkSign]

LMFAO. You had no idea about Hilbert till I told you. Now you want to school me? Pathetic.

What's even more pathetic is that you will stay in your fantasy world until you get the last word. Ok. Go for it.

Im not wrong, but you just stay in that fantasy world.

 

[Spazmo]

...holy fucking shit, Sarvis has found two people who are as stupid as him to argue with!

 

[Greatatlantic]

Sarvis is actually right. Everyone just moves to the next room, leaving the first room open for the SINGLE traveller.

The next question posed with this set up is what to do if a bus shows up carrying an infinite number of passengers, and the answer to that question goes to room number twice their current room number, which is what was said earlier.

The third question is what to do if an infinite number of buses shows up each carrying an infinite number of passengers. You can't just create an infinite number of rooms, since some infinities are greater than others. You must prove a mapping from each passenger to a hotel room.

The final question is what to do if a bus comes carrying a passenger for every irrational number, and this one has no solution. Or rather its been proven that there is nothing the hotel can do to house them all.

It is a classical math problem first posed by Hilbert, so google is right there.

On another note, one shouldn't confuse mathematical infinity with the expression of specch. Sometimes saying infinite means more than I can count, and getting into the discussion of whether or not that is its proper usage just sidetracks the real discussion and is being pointless.

EDIT: I guess Darksign's solution would create a room for the single traveller though, it would just also create an infinite number of unoccupied rooms also, which isn't being very efficient on the part of the hotel. By the way, didn't somebody say something about Infinity's Machine?

 

[DarkSign]

Yes. I referenced Infinity's Machine but took the reference out.

Forgive me for giving the answer not only for the single room but advancing it to the multiple room answer.

Sarvis fucked up when he tried to correct me. I wasnt incorrect.

 

[Sarvis]

LMFAO. You had no idea about Hilbert till I told you. Now you want to school me? Pathetic.

What's even more pathetic is that you will stay in your fantasy world until you get the last word. Ok. Go for it.

Im not wrong, but you just stay in that fantasy world.

No, you aren't "wrong" you just answered the wrong question.

I answered the right question with the right answer, without knowing about Hilbert. Yes, that's right... instead of giving a half-assed memorized answer like you did I figured it out on my own. It's called thinking, try it sometime.

 

[DarkSign]

No, you aren't "wrong" you just answered the wrong question."

Do you even read what you type or do you just vomit and hit enter?

By answering the wrong question you're saying I gave the wrong answer. The only other possibility is that Im right.

So which is it? Did I answer the wrong question with the right answer? Did I answer the right question with the right answer? Did I answer the right question with the wrong answer? Or did I answer the wrong question with the wrong answer.

The fact that I referenced something that I had learned doesnt mean that I dont think. At best you can say it was an attempt at egotism ~ showing off.

As I predicted, you're one of those internet people that has to have the last word. If that makes your little e-peen get stiff...go for it.

 

[Sarvis]

No, you aren't "wrong" you just answered the wrong question."

Do you even read what you type or do you just vomit and hit enter?

By answering the wrong question you're saying I gave the wrong answer. The only other possibility is that Im right.

So which is it? Did I answer the wrong question with the right answer? Did I answer the right question with the right answer? Did I answer the right question with the wrong answer? Or did I answer the wrong question with the wrong answer.

The fact that I referenced something that I had learned doesnt mean that I dont think. At best you can say it was an attempt at egotism ~ showing off.

As I predicted, you're one of those internet people that has to have the last word. If that makes your little e-peen get stiff...go for it.

Dude, considering the person who posted the question has said I was right and you were wrong you might want to give it up.

 

[DarkSign]

Dooode. Your reading comprehension sucks too.

If you read his whole post, he said I was right, merely inefficient.

Nice way of avoiding your inconsistency with the word wrong. Guess you dont have an answer for that one, huh?

/yawn

 

[TheGreatGodPan]

You can have a stat-less RPG. They use what's called "drama mechanics". They've only been used in pen&paper though. I've started some threads on the possibility of using them for a computer game here.

Actually you cannot, if you do that you simply making a adventure game or a action game.

I am not keen in Interactive Fiction either.

Does adding stats to an adventure/action game make it an RPG?

In an adventure game, everyone plays as the same character (who usually doesn't go through any changes, and even if that isn't the case, they are pre-scripted for everyone), and you pretty much go through all the same stuff. This isn't the case in an RPG, and that's what makes it different.

 

[Sarvis]

Shall we review?

I gave the correct answer...you didnt. Go sit at the little kiddy table.

Sarvis is actually right. Everyone just moves to the next room, leaving the first room open for the SINGLE traveller.

By the way, no you were not right. Your answer does solve the problem, but it is not the correct answer.

Sorry, but I just don't understand why you can't get that the Hilbert's Hotel is actually a demonstration of several different properties of infinity, and you got them mixed up. That's all there is to it.


<b>GreatAtlantic</b>

I don't get the irrational number thing. Why couldn't infinite capacity handle all the irrational numbers? There can't be more than infinite of them right?

 

[Kraszu]

On another note, one shouldn't confuse mathematical infinity with the expression of specch. Sometimes saying infinite means more than I can count, and getting into the discussion of whether or not that is its proper usage just sidetracks the real discussion and is being pointless.

Sure i misunderstand Sarvis, not hard to do i guess(after his many comments on infinity). - I had commented on that already. I was traing to get some clue of his mistery definition of rpg. But it was only misunderstanding, and mess -throug i expected the secend.

It can be argued that Bethesda Softworks went from classic RPG form (Arena and Daggerfall) to action RPG with Morrowind and are going further with Oblivion, but I don't see it that way. Did anyone here know people who considered Arena's real time combat and first person perspective to not be RPG enough?

Well that perspectid can be flawed whit dexternity of player, if somebady is fast and used to combat gothic like game anable him to play warrior (there should be more limitations throug, like imposibole to block orc atack whit 1 lvl char but it is bout balance). For somebady slow, rp warrior can be imposibole. The same whit daggerfal, the diference is only in dex needed from player, more sklills of player needed - less rpg in that sense. The more of your dex you have to use, the more you have to try to play your warrior, the less rp it feels to you.

 

[DarkSign]

"By the way, no you were not right. Your answer does solve the problem, but it is not the correct answer."

Let's review. Either Im right or Im wrong. You cant have it both ways. If it "does solve the problem" then Im right. Thanks for agreeing.

"Sorry, but I just don't understand why you can't get that the Hilbert's Hotel is actually a demonstration of several different properties of infinity, and you got them mixed up. That's all there is to it. "

Lets continue the recap. He posted the Hilbert Hotel puzzle which I, in my exuberance, over-explained.

Then you, attempting to correct me because of hatred stemming from past thrashings, implied that I was incorrect.

"EDIT: I guess Darksign's solution would create a room for the single traveller though, it would just also create an infinite number of unoccupied rooms also, which isn't being very efficient on the part of the hotel. By the way, didn't somebody say something about Infinity's Machine?"

That would be GreatAtlantic saying that my explanation would solve the solution of creating a room for the bastard.

Room assigned. Puzzle solved. Plain and simple.

Oh wait. Here comes your attempt at having the last word #3...or is it #4?

 

[Greatatlantic]

To answer Sarvis, no. Some infinities can be a lot bigger than others. Take Rational and irrational numbers. A rational number is one that can be expressed as a ratio of two integers, e.g. 3, 1/2, 17/3. An irrational number can't be, e.g. pi, Euler's constant, any number with infinite decimals that don't repeat.

The amount of irrational numbers is much larger than the amount of rational numbers. This is best expressed by the fact for any two rational numbers, there exists an infinite number of irrational numbers between them. Take 3.4 and 3.5, both rational numbers. Between them you have 3.41..., 3.417, 3.4179..., 3.41795..., etc.

 

[Spazmo]

Counting infinities is pretty goddamn pointless. To me, it all comes down to my favourite mathematical theorem:

The Frivolous Theorem of Artithmetic

Almost all numbers are very, very, very large.

And it's spelled Euler, incidentally.

 

[Sarvis]

To answer Sarvis, no. Some infinities can be a lot bigger than others. Take Rational and irrational numbers. A rational number is one that can be expressed as a ratio of two integers, e.g. 3, 1/2, 17/3. An irrational number can't be, e.g. pi, Euler's constant, any number with infinite decimals that don't repeat.

The amount of irrational numbers is much larger than the amount of rational numbers. This is best expressed by the fact for any two rational numbers, there exists an infinite number of irrational numbers between them. Take 3.4 and 3.5, both rational numbers. Between them you have 3.41..., 3.417, 3.4179..., 3.41795..., etc.

Still though, infinite is infinite... I mean, ok I understand that between 1 and two is an infinite number of numbers... but that just means infinite buses of infinite passengers showing up, and the hotel can handle a bus of infinite passengers... so why can't it handle 2 buses, and if it can handle 2 buses then why not 3... and so on?

Oh well, silly mathemeticians... this is why I stay away from that crap!

 

[GhanBuriGhan]

Well, let's hear it then, o mighty Codex: When DOES a FPS become a RPG? And when DOES a RPG become a FPS? Or a RTS?

 

[Greatatlantic]

Dang it, for the longest time I pronounced it as YOU-ler. Now I finally pronounce it correctly, I just can't spell it. As for counting infinities...

Its been said if philosophy is a game with objectives but no rules, then math is a game with rules but no objectives. That pretty much describes it. I still find a lot of intellectual satisfaction by studying it though.

Here is another one:

A Philosopher and a Mathematician are having a conversation:

Philosopher:"Let's see if you can find out how old my three daughters are. If you add up the age of all three girls, you receive YOUR daughter's age. If you multiply them you get 36."

Mathematician:"Without any other information, I can't find the solution."

Philosopher:"I forgot to tell you. My oldest daughter has blue eyes."

 

[Spazmo]

It's been said that philosophers are a bunch of smelly losers and that mathematicians are tolerated because they don't cost much (just pencils, paper and coffee) and occasionally come up with something useful.

 

[Kraszu]

2; 2; 9.

My faivret riddle, my english is poor so it can be harder :

12 balls, one of them is heavier or it weaight less then rest. You have balance and you can use it 3 times. Find the diferent ball.

 

[Psilon]

(Assuming the special ball is heavier. If lighter, s/heavier/lighter.)

Weigh four balls (A) against four other balls (B). Set the other four aside as (C).
If A is heavier, group D is group A.
If B is heavier, group D is group B.
If A and B come out even, group D is group C.

Weigh the four balls in group D, D1 and D2 against D3 and D4.
If D1/D2 is heavier, group E is D1 and group F is D2.
If D3/D4 is heavier, group E is D3 and group F is D4.
If they come out even, slap the purveyor for cheating.

Weigh E against F.
The heavier ball is the special ball.