What is an RPG?

[Sol Invictus]

I don't think it's fair to judge Guild Wars based on its performance at the E3 demo, though. It's still in very early alpha, and so far, it's looking better than Dungeon Siege or many other games ever did in their final release (Lionheart!).

 

[Rosh]

I checked out Guild Wars for a bit. It looks interesting, and I'd like to see what they have in store for the full game.

I don't mind that kind of gameplay, though preferably in small doses.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Yeah, what I liked most about Guild Wars was the variety it offered in terms of gameplay. In most games, Diablo 2, assorted mmorpgs, or what have you, there's only one thing to do - kill stuff... for the sake of klling stuff (or in a variety of ways, e.g. with spells, swords or bows).

Guild Wars was different, though; that is to say it offered a variety of play modes, like team duels, a capture the flag scenario, castle siege, starship troopers defense, and a bunch of other stuff. So it wasn't all about 'going to point A to kill stuff, and then head on to point B to kill more stuff'.

I wonder what other sorts of play modes they'll offer in the final version. It's really neat, though, that the E3 game was nothing but an early Alpha version.

 

[Jed]

The whole "CRPG" semantics game is pointless because RPGs have already been defined prior to the existence of afordable home computing devices.

CRPG = RPG on the COMPUTAR!

 

[Sol Invictus]

Yes, but is Pokemon an RPG?

 

[Rosh]

Only if you're some pathetic trouser stain by the name of Rebel.

 

[Thirteener]

From what I can see, an RPG is completely different on a person-to-person basis. Person A thinks that RPGs mean your character has a name and some personal characteristics. Who's to say they're wrong? Person B can think that an RPG has more strict attributes, such as TB combat and totally open-ended play. Why can't they also be right? It seems to me like someone who enjoys RPGs has to pick and choose what's good from a huge list of games that could be considered by someone to be RPGs. I wish there could be some clear-cut, all-encompassing definition, but I can't think of one.

That being said, the perfect example of an RPG for me is Fallout. The combat system is totally engaging and balances just the right amount of strategy with sheer roll-of-the-die type luck. You can assume a completely opposite personality from your own (becoming a junkie who shoots everything he/she sees etc.). And there are plenty of options to chose from. All of these qualities add up to replayability. I guess, for me, role-playing games are games that you can play as if you are living out a separate life. It seems to me like this is the definition to many people, but I suppose anyone can be right about it.

Dat's my speech.

 

[Psilon]

Only if you're some pathetic trouser stain by the name of Rebel.

Although we welcome anyone who shares our views to join our agency at any time, a breach of member security has forced us to step up our administrative and data handling security procedures by ten orders of magnitude. New members are heavily screened to ensure that no-one is infiltrating us purposefully, and new member validation software has recently been written, which will soon be upgraded with minimum trouble.

As opposed to infiltrating them accidentally? Geez, talk about paranoia. You don't see us cutting off our entertainment supply that way.

 

[Rosh]

(snip a lot of idiocy about CRPGS)

The defining points, and why the genre was called such, were long since discussed before you decided to grace us with your...presence. The multiple viewpoint definition is a tired and bullshit explanation. There's clearly defined genres that real developers (i.e. non-gaming school, non-diploma mill, non-media whore) tend to understand because they pay attention to the key points of design.

Dat's my speech.

Your honor, the prosecution rests. Thirteener is indeed thirteen years old and, gleefully, without a clue.

 

[Anonymous]

I've always seen RPGs as just one big pie with different kinds oif slices, some people dont like the taste of some slices, though. Well, atleast that's what I say now, as people split off from the core of a 'full' RPG (like Fallout and Arcanum) and make them focus on one aspect of the genre with the basic blocks still sitting around (action RPG, combat RPG, First Person RPG).

 

[Rosh]

"Action RPG" always cracks me up. There was already a genre label without having to strain to force the RPG label onto everything like the industry is doing lately.

Action RPG = Action-Adventure
Combat RPG = Dungeon Crawler
FP RPG = RPG with a first-person view, not really a hybrid at all, unless it's a hybrid with a FPS.

That's why there are genres, and there are hybrids. Each have their own name, but the media and publishers are mainly to blame for the misunderstanding. The media, because most of them are clueless kids who have proven they have performed item association (which infants are capable of, but most gaming press isn't wont to show they are capable of much else), the publishers as some mean to draw in certain crowds merely because it was labeled a certain way.

 

[Anonymous]

That's true. And I mean First Person RPG as FPS/RPG mix, like System Shock 2, Vampire and Deus Ex.

I do recall times when they were still called those things and hybrids, but due to the publisher pimping and the swelling of most of them, they've become their 'popular' names.

I dont mind using them at times because I dont mind a few games from there, but the plain 'true' RPG is always the best and I see why you and others would want to keep the RPG title pure and all, as should I, seeing the tagline of RPGCodex, heh.

 

[Thirteener]

Thirteener is indeed thirteen years old and, gleefully, without a clue.

First off, I'm not 13. Thirteener is a Fallout reference (note the power armor-clad avatar) and adapted from JFK's, "I am a Berliner" (or perhaps, "I am a doughnut"?) speech. Now:

I don't think the eloquently named "multiple viewpoint" claim is bullshit. Obviously I'm not the only person who thinks this as Llama God's pie analogy is essentially the same thing. How can you say that multiple viewpoint doesn't fit when you complain that a game like Dungeon Siege is called an RPG on the box. I suppose you could call Dungeon Siege a media-whore game or something, but I don't know... It seems if you still haven't come up with a clear-cut definition for it after all this time, it doesn't have one. You seem to say that there is one, but you have yet to provide it. You also say that "real developers" understand the genre because they understand the "key points of design". If your so omniscient, please, bequeath us with these keys so that we mere mortals may understand the world at least a fraction as well as you!

 

[Rosh]

First off, I'm not 13.

You might want to prove otherwise.

Thirteener is a Fallout reference (note the power armor-clad avatar) and adapted from JFK's, "I am a Berliner" (or perhaps, "I am a doughnut"?) speech. Now:

You might want to switch to bottled water. Something makes me think you've had far too much mercury cocktail with a side of leaden paint chips. Yes, I see your avatar. We all can see your avatar.

Or maybe not.

I don't think the eloquently named "multiple viewpoint" claim is bullshit. Obviously I'm not the only person who thinks this as Llama God's pie analogy is essentially the same thing. How can you say that multiple viewpoint doesn't fit when you complain that a game like Dungeon Siege is called an RPG on the box.

Let me try a bit and bring myself to think down on your level.

Hey, look! I carved "RPG" into a dog turd.

/me throws the RPG at Thirteener.

Wow, playing RPGs surely is fun!

You also might want to put more effort into reading what was written before you piss someone off for misrepresenting them. Read the pie analogy again, then read the follow-up posts that explains how those came about and why those are HYBRIDS, not the CRPG genre as publishers and the media are too stupid or market them that way purposefully to...

You know, I'm not even going to finish that as I'm not fond of repeating parts of the thread for the behalf of the terminally stupid.

I suppose you could call Dungeon Siege a media-whore game or something, but I don't know...

I think I already pointed out your lack of understanding of the genres. I did so for your behalf, because everyone else knows you're an idiot by now.

It seems if you still haven't come up with a clear-cut definition for it after all this time, it doesn't have one. You seem to say that there is one, but you have yet to provide it.

Liar. I already have, three times over. You are too busy backpedalling and pulling shit out from your ass as some kind of...damn, I don't know where you were hoping to go with your post, but at the mention of Dungeon Siege and CRPG together, you lost all credibility of being serious or sentient. It's been pointed out already (and you conveniently forget/ignore such) that we tend to look at things a little more technically than you and your AOL buddies.

Congratulations on having found out how to abuse the Submit function for posting messages. Now find the X in the upper-right and click it, then remove all knowledge of using a browser from your mind. We would sincerely thank you.

You also say that "real developers" understand the genre because they understand the "key points of design". If your so omniscient, please, bequeath us with these keys so that we mere mortals may understand the world at least a fraction as well as you!

I've already pointed them out, at at length, twice over and in this very thread as well. It's not my fault if you lack the ability to understand it.

My apologies if you're also too inbred to understand how to use a simple search function.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Hey, look! I carved "RPG" into a dog turd.

/me throws the RPG at Thirteener.

Wow, playing RPGs surely is fun!

I almost fell off the chair laughing. "playing RPGs is fun"

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I don't think the eloquently named "multiple viewpoint" claim is bullshit. Obviously I'm not the only person who thinks this as Llama God's pie analogy is essentially the same thing. How can you say that multiple viewpoint doesn't fit when you complain that a game like Dungeon Siege is called an RPG on the box. I suppose you could call Dungeon Siege a media-whore game or something, but I don't know... It seems if you still haven't come up with a clear-cut definition for it after all this time, it doesn't have one. You seem to say that there is one, but you have yet to provide it. You also say that "real developers" understand the genre because they understand the "key points of design". If your so omniscient, please, bequeath us with these keys so that we mere mortals may understand the world at least a fraction as well as you!

Dungeon Siege is an Action CRPG, but it's a damned poor one loaded with design flaws. There's three aspects(aka key points of design) an Action CRPG should focus on and make fun and interesting:

• Combat
• Advancement and development
• Ph4t l3wt

Now, if you look at Dungeon Siege, two of those are handled for the player. Combat is nearly all done by the computer's AI, leaving the player to simply watch the health bars in order to suck down that potion at the right time. If there were automated potion sucking, then the player could effectively get up and leave the room during combat. The only thing keeping them in the chair is health bar monitoring.

Advancement and development in Dungeon Siege is also handled by the game itself. The player really has no options other than what weapon goes in the avatar's hands. When the player levels up, all they see is Attribute is raised or Skill improved. There's no involvement with advancing, no fine tuning of the character, no choices or options.

The ph4t l3wt also has problems in that all of it is class specific. While some class specific things can make a game interesting - see Diablo 2 and Sacred, having ALL armors and weapons based on the automated advancement tree basically just means that no matter what you find, 66% of it will be useless to your character.

Also, because of the way armor and weapons are handled, it's hard to build something like a fightery mage just because of how item drops are tuned towards builds. You might find an armor suitable for a fighter that he's close to being able to wear, but for a 50% fighter/50% mage, that armor will be useless to you for a long, long, long time.

So, yeah, it's an action CRPG, but it's plagued with really bad design.

 

[Nael]

Whoa Nellie!

 

[SilasMalkav]

From what I remember of Dungeon Siege, you can choose which stats you level up by sticking to one type of attack. Which is pretty much the same way Morrowind works. And I believe the equipment is based on those stats, not an aribtary class.

Having a fighter/mage multiclass be difficult is good design, not bad design, as what you're suggesting is to have the benefits of armor and magic, but without the flaws. I do agree that this wasn't a very viable build to go through the game with though. I think alot of rpgs do have problems with that however.

Oh and I'm not actually defending the entire game, it was way too linear hack and slash for my liking, and all you really needed to do was have half your party be melee fighters, and the other half healers with auto healing spells cast. Then you didn't even need to use the healing potions. *yawn*

For me an rpg has to have the fun of crafting a character from scratch to suit how I would like to play the game. But then again Planescape Torment wouldn't fit in that, so really I don't have a strict idea of what an rpg is, just a good idea of what it isn't.

 

[Dementia Praecox]

Haven't we had this conversation?

Even in 2004 every topic on these forums were discussed to death.