The art of reading between the lines - a FO3 thread

[Krafter]

It looks like Bethesda still refuses to acknowledge the Fallout fans as the target audience and keeps aiming at the mass market.

Yep. Just think, in a few years when you say 'Fallout fans,' people will think you are talking about xbox kiddies who bought Fallout 3. Won't that be fun!

 

[Lumpy]

I believe your father will be something like Martin/Jauffre in Oblivion, featuring frequently. That's the most logical thing to derive from those quotes.
And that means that it's a linear storyline.

 

[Section8]

Rob Roy

It shold be noted that the best thing about Rob Roy was Tim Roth.

Think of yourself a scabbard, Mistress McGregor, and I the sword. And a fine fit you were, too.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I like how you twist your words. The point is that you claimed that I had a hard time facing that Bethesda may muck it up, which is a clear marginalisation of me as someone who's not looking at the facts.

Marginalization or not, that's what your position appears to be. I've seen many Fallout fans at DAC and NMA, and quite a few reached for any straws that would allow them to keep their hope. You don't appear to be different.

Of course I hope for a good game. So do you. So does anyone who's played the Fallout games and liked them.

I don't think that there are many people who hope for a good Fallout game from Bethesda, to be honest.

Oh give me a break, Vault Dweller. That sentence is overused as shit, especially in the Hollywood world.

Are we/Bethesda in Hollywood? Has Bethesda ever used this phrase before? Is it a good idea to continue dismissing Bethesda's statements, just like "we aren't going to make an isometric game like BG all of a sudden" was dismissed?

I've already explained that. The Overseer featured as an *explicit* helper. It is actually noted in the manual that if you ever get stuck, you should go to the Overseer.

It's noted in the manual? Then it is indeed a prominently featured and a very important character. My bad.

Hakunin featured mostly to urge you on.

I would have given up long time ago without him. He was a true patriot.

Yes. As I said, and please try to actually counter this, he has the most voiced dialogue of any character in the game.

Is that a fact?

He sends you out on your quest (setting the dramatic tone)...

Using this reasoning, every quest sets a dramatic tone: kill these rats, bring me food, talk to this guy, etc.

... he features as a father-like figure whenever you return to him (except at the very end), providing you with advice.

Like what? Also what makes him a father-like figure?

And he features as the culmination of the game. He's more prominent than *any* other voiced character in the game, and really only the Master has a greater importance to the story.

The Overseer is important to the story? You've gotta be kidding me. What role does he play?

Yes, this is prominent. You almost always came across him in the beginning, you always saw him at the 'OMG your village is dead' point...

Receptionist is usually the first person you see when you come into an office and the last person you see when you leave it. A prominent person?

...and he was the driving force behind the player, providing the 'dramatic tone'.

You are reaching and it's obvious.

 

[aries202]

As for Neeson's role in Fallout 3, try to remember that he has played Jean Valjean, Oscar Schindler, Michael Collins, and the Doctor in Nell as well as the father in Love Actually, as well as having starred in Kingdom of Heaven and a little film called
Breakfast on Pluto. Oh, and he has played Dr. Alfred J. Kinsey in the movie 'kinsey', too.

The point is that Liam (Neeson) is a very talented & multifacetted actor who can play different roles. And is not limited to playing the wise man (jedi) from the Star War's movies. And maybe, just maybe Bethsoft did write Liam's part as the part he plays in Michael Collins or Schindler's List. And as such, yes, you could have Liam voice acting 'the old goat sitting in the cave' just a you could have him voice acting 'the tired warrior that passes, reluctantly, advice to the younger generation'. Or he could be playing, voice-acting, a character which is a brutal sob, and then the player's character need to rebel against him. This has been done before, of course, but the question really is this: If this is the way, Bethsoft is going, how well will they tell the storu and what artistic effects will they use to tell the story? And that is up for anyone's grabs to guess...I guess

As for the part of FO3 being linear, I'm fine with this. FO1+F02 were, imo, also a bit linear, at least in the sense, that after you finished the main quest, the story was over. You've had beaten the game. And there was nothing more for you to do in the game.

The Vault Dweller (no, not VD ) from FO1 could be seen as a sort of father figure. A father figure who kicked you out of the vault, but nonetheless, still a father figure. Setting the dramatic tone does not necessarily means that your father (in FO3) will get killed or turn evil. It could just mean that he, sort of, kicks you out of the tribal village or shantytown, to get the drama going. (in the main quest). My guess is that we will indeed see a dramatic conflict between father & son for the main quest, but that's just my guess.

I don't really think that paying maybe USD 500,000 (or possibly even less) in USD 15-20 million project, like FO3's budget probably will be, affect the game that much. The 38 lines text dialoque has more to do with the technichal limitations of the Xbox 360.
This is a technichal issie that probably & hopefully will be fixed in the future, I hope And who says that this game is coming out for the Xbox 360. It could as well only be released for the PS3, which already has a game like FO3 out, namely: Resistance, Fall of Man. (and, irrc, the PS3 doesn't seem to have same tech limitations for speech that the Xbox 360 does...??].

As for the player's father apperaring prominently througout the game, this just goes to show that no matter what you, some people will still critisize you. In Obliivion, Bethsoft got a lot of heat & flames for having Patrick Stewart only appearing for the first 15-20 minutes or so. And when they then hire an actor that's supposed to be in the game, during all the game, or nearly all the game, apparently this is wrong, too. I'm sorry, but I don't understand this. It is as if some of you (not all of you, but some) want Fallout 3 to be a modern version of Fallout 1+2 instead of a different game with a different story. since some of you don't want things to change - that much.

As for the quests etc. --- please note that Emil P. is the Lead Quest Designer. And Emil P. wrote the stories (narrative) or quests for the Dark Brotherhood in Oblivion, which you all seemed to like (even if you didn't like the game, Oblivion, at all & in general) I'm not that worried about linear quest (what does that even mean??) in Falllot 3. Every subquest in a game is linear in way: You get a quest, you do the quest, you come back to the questgiver, you get your reward. How you solve the quest, may be done in a different way, either through combat or through diplomacy or stealth or by the use of your other skills, perks & abilities. But we really don't know that we only can solve quest through one skill, such as combat, at this time. (or maybe VD knows more than I do??)

And please try not to make comparisions between FO3 and the TES games. They are very different games, and I do think that the devs. at Bethsoft are consciously aware of this.

As for starting the game as character that have been chosen, you seem to be fine with this in Planescape: Torment or in the Gothic series. Why then, aren't you fine with this in Fallout 3?? I don't care, if I play a young character aged 18 or 25 or even 30 in Fallout 3, as long as the story's narrative structure is well told, well-written and well-presented. Oh, and have you thought about that the main story might about how you, the player character, start out as young adolescent, and then, through, the game, become a man. Maybe this is part of the main story, maybe it isn't. We really canøt know for sure - at this time.

aries202

 

[hicksman]

What are we talking about again?

I understand that this argument doesn't ever win, but just keep in mind that if they just made another fallout just like the other two, no one, perhaps not even the fallout fans here would play it. They need something new. They need to attract players other than the codexers who will probably torrent it regardless of its quality.

I also don't agree with VDs OP. If they said something like "father figure" or something to imply that he was actively fathering the main character, i might think of him as being young.

Also, why is being young and having a father shoe-horning me into a role i dont want to play any more than "unknown from the wastes" is? Perhaps I would appreciate some history. I thought we established the whole amnesia thing was lame? Isnt that the same thing?

Argument 2 is total conjecture. I realize that beth doesnt have a rep lately of doing anything else, but its still conjecture. The Grand Theft Auto games all had several well known actors and had quite a few lines, so its not like its a sure sign that there will just be one line of dialog mapped to 3 different responses.

3 - The fallout fans aren't the target audience. Realize this and save yourself a bunch of "FO3 threads"s. There's 100 of us. We play good games, not games that are new. Many of us didnt even pay for Fallout 1 and 2. What about us would make you think Bethsoft would plunk down 1 mil in funding to make a game for us? I said it in a different post, but i think it rings true here... buying the fallout IP was just a way to reduce the risk of making an RPG that wasnt swords and sorcery.

I will agree that the hype and shit from OB was rediculous and I hope they learned from their mistakes to not overhype features that werent actually concrete.

 

[Sander]

Marginalization or not, that's what your position appears to be. I've seen many Fallout fans at DAC and NMA, and quite a few reached for any straws that would allow them to keep their hope. You don't appear to be different.

That's neat, but I am. I haven't shied away from criticising Bethesda for things they've done wrong, ever, for any reason. I just can't stand faulty logic.

I don't think that there are many people who hope for a good Fallout game from Bethesda, to be honest.

I think everyone does. Note that 'hope' and realistically expect are very different.

Are we/Bethesda in Hollywood? Has Bethesda ever used this phrase before? Is it a good idea to continue dismissing Bethesda's statements, just like "we aren't going to make an isometric game like BG all of a sudden" was dismissed?

That wasn't dismissed, VDweller. Also, you're misquoting him, but whatever.
Note that the videogame industry and hollywood have a shitload in common, especially when it comes to hype. The difference is that Hollywood is more grown up, but when it comes to PR-speak, they're very similar.

I've already explained that. The Overseer featured as an *explicit* helper. It is actually noted in the manual that if you ever get stuck, you should go to the Overseer.

It's noted in the manual? Then it is indeed a prominently featured and a very important character. My bad.

Hakunin featured mostly to urge you on.

I would have given up long time ago without him. He was a true patriot.

Oh yeah, I forgot, this is the Codex so sarcastic confirmations are actually valid arguments.

Yes. As I said, and please try to actually counter this, he has the most voiced dialogue of any character in the game.

Is that a fact?

For as far as I can see, yes it is.

Using this reasoning, every quest sets a dramatic tone: kill these rats, bring me food, talk to this guy, etc.

A dramatic tone for that specific quest, yes. Now consider that this was the overarching story he introduced.

Like what? Also what makes him a father-like figure?

Have you ever even spoken to the guy in the game? He acts like the person who guides you along the quest. The only un-fatherly thing he does is kick you out of the vault at the end.

The Overseer is important to the story? You've gotta be kidding me. What role does he play?

What, must I repeat this over and over again:
He initiates the story, he outlines your quest midway through the game, he kicks you out of the vault, arguably *the* event in the storyline that has the biggest impact on the player. Yes, the Overseer is prominent.

Receptionist is usually the first person you see when you come into an office and the last person you see when you leave it. A prominent person?

At the reception area, yes.

You are reaching and it's obvious.

I like how you always dismiss points by simply telling people they're wrong.
Sorry, Vault Dweller, that's not a form of valid argumentation.

PS: Tim Roth indeed rocked the kazbah in Rob Roy.

 

[Mr Happy]

This seems to heavily imply that he will be unkillable (and dont say "well its okay and youre a fag cuz the overseer was unkillable too" because, so what?)

Maybe he is just a dream character that tells you to hurry the shit up because your village is dying or something, but those are annoying too.

The other thing, like Elwro said, it also implies some laziness on the story end of things. There are only like 4 interesting ways to work a father character into a a game.

 

[dagorkan]

That's neat, but I am. I haven't shied away from criticising Bethesda for things they've done wrong, ever, for any reason. I just can't stand faulty logic.

How can you stand yourself?

I don't think that there are many people who hope for a good Fallout game from Bethesda, to be honest.

I think everyone does. Note that 'hope' and realistically expect are very different.

In the dictionary maybe but not in this context. 'Hope' means 'realistically expect'. That's how everybody who understands the english language uses it.

It's noted in the manual? Then it is indeed a prominently featured and a very important character. My bad.

I would have given up long time ago without him. He was a true patriot.

Oh yeah, I forgot, this is the Codex so sarcastic confirmations are actually valid arguments.

They're all you deserve.

Overseer has most dialog in game

Is that a fact?

For as far as I can see, yes it is.

Fact is this: the amount of dialog the Overseer gets is a minute percentage of the total dialog. Just take a look at the msg files in the extracted master.dat.

Like what? Also what makes him a father-like figure?

Have you ever even spoken to the guy in the game? He acts like the person who guides you along the quest. The only un-fatherly thing he does is kick you out of the vault at the end.

I have talked to the guy in the game and I never gave a fuck about him. The only times interacted with the Overseer were briefing/debriefing of quest #1, briefing/debriefing quest #2 (your choices: accept, ask questions then accept) and the final, 'cinematic', scene (choice: do nothing -> end game, shoot him -> end game).

I see him as a generic quest dispenser. I don't give a fuck if he's voiced or animated, that's all he actually is.

Receptionist is usually the first person you see when you come into an office and the last person you see when you leave it. A prominent person?

At the reception area, yes.

Sticking with the analogy, the Overseer is prominent in Vault 13. OK. However Vault 13 is a place where you'll spend a maximum of five minutes (15 minutes if you do all the optional quests) in your entire play through. Vault 13 = world of Fallout?

You are reaching and it's obvious.

I like how you always dismiss points by simply telling people they're wrong.
Sorry, Vault Dweller, that's not a form of valid argumentation.

'

I think you know where you can shove your 'argumentation'.

 

[Sander]

Are you like my personal troll? Because reading your post is funny.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I understand that this argument doesn't ever win, but just keep in mind that if they just made another fallout just like the other two, no one, perhaps not even the fallout fans here would play it.

You do realize that when people criticize the last 3 Star Wars movie, it's not because they expected carbon copies of the first three?

They need to attract players other than the codexers who will probably torrent it regardless of its quality. ... Many of us didnt even pay for Fallout 1 and 2.

Are there any facts proving this "The Codexers pirate games" bullshit?

Also, why is being young and having a father shoe-horning me into a role i dont want to play any more than "unknown from the wastes" is?

Known defines you. Unknown doesn't.

Perhaps I would appreciate some history. I thought we established the whole amnesia thing was lame? Isnt that the same thing?

Not really.

Argument 2 is total conjecture. I realize that beth doesnt have a rep lately of doing anything else, but its still conjecture. The Grand Theft Auto games all had several well known actors and had quite a few lines, so its not like its a sure sign that there will just be one line of dialog mapped to 3 different responses.

That's Beth's way of doing things. Had they decided not to use voice-overs, then there would have been a chance to have a game with expansive dialogues. Now that they announced Liam's, no way.

3 - The fallout fans aren't the target audience. Realize this and save yourself a bunch of "FO3 threads"s. There's 100 of us.

Which is why Bethesda paid millions of dollars for the setting.

 

[Squeek]

Great original post. All things considered, Bethesda deserves this kind of scrutiny.

 

[Black]

Are you like my personal troll? Because reading your post is funny.

And look who's trolling now :d

 

[Seboss]

That's Beth's way of doing things. Had they decided not to use voice-overs, then there would have been a chance to have a game with expansive dialogues. Now that they announced Liam's, no way.

Richard Dean Anderson and Ron Perlman were not as famous in 1997 as they are today, but they were not underrated either. However, hiring them for voice acting on Fallout did not prevent it to have expansive dialogues.
Considering that Fallout 3 budget must be several orders of magnitude higher than Fallout 1, let's not rule out expansive dialogues in FO3 just yet.
I know we have a precedent with Oblivion, but Bethesda still have the benefit of the doubt for now.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Marginalization or not, that's what your position appears to be. I've seen many Fallout fans at DAC and NMA, and quite a few reached for any straws that would allow them to keep their hope. You don't appear to be different.

That's neat, but I am. I haven't shied away from criticising Bethesda for things they've done wrong, ever, for any reason.

Criticizing Bethesda doesn't mean that you don't hope they will *somehow* manage to make a worthy Fallout 3 game.

I don't think that there are many people who hope for a good Fallout game from Bethesda, to be honest.

I think everyone does.

No. I hoped that Oblivion will somehow be a decent game. The only hope I have left is a hope that FO3 will be a decent action game, like Stalker. No more than that. I can name quite a few posters here who share these sentiments.

Note that the videogame industry and hollywood have a shitload in common, especially when it comes to hype. The difference is that Hollywood is more grown up, but when it comes to PR-speak, they're very similar.

So, on one hand we have a direct quote, on the other hand we have your unsupported theory inviting to disregard the direct quote and continue to hope.... And you have a problem with *my* faulty logic?

Oh yeah, I forgot, this is the Codex so sarcastic confirmations are actually valid arguments.

Only in response to silly points like "he is an important character in the game because the manual says so!"

Have you ever even spoken to the guy in the game? He acts like the person who guides you along the quest. The only un-fatherly thing he does is kick you out of the vault at the end.

Guides me how? Can we have some facts here?

He initiates the story, he outlines your quest midway through the game, he kicks you out of the vault, arguably *the* event in the storyline that has the biggest impact on the player. Yes, the Overseer is prominent.

No, he initiates a simple " Go to V15 nearby and get us a replacement chip" quest, which happened to lead to bigger and better things without ANY involvement from the Overseer. Then he may tell you that the mutants are a threat and you better deal with somehow too. That's all.

Receptionist is usually the first person you see when you come into an office and the last person you see when you leave it. A prominent person?

At the reception area, yes.

Ok, we are finally getting somewhere. So, the Overseer is a prominent person in V13, but not in the entire game. I have no problem with this definition.

...and he was the driving force behind the player, providing the 'dramatic tone'.

You are reaching and it's obvious.

I like how you always dismiss points by simply telling people they're wrong.
Sorry, Vault Dweller, that's not a form of valid argumentation.

Because you post bs, Sander, trying to prove your point. The idea that the shaman was the driving point is ridiculous.

 

[Sander]

Are you like my personal troll? Because reading your post is funny.

And look who's trolling now :d

Wait, someone registers just to say that?

Is this Dagorkan again?

Richard Dean Anderson and Ron Perlman were not as famous in 1997 as they are today, but they were not underrated either. However, hiring them for voice acting on Fallout did not prevent it to have expansive dialogues.
Considering that Fallout 3 budget must be several orders of magnitude higher than Fallout 1, let's not rule out expansive dialogues in FO3 just yet.
I know we have a precedent with Oblivion, but Bethesda still have the benefit of the doubt for now.

Fallout had what was probably the most impressive and most expensive voice-over cast ever, at the time.

 

[Sander]

Criticizing Bethesda doesn't mean that you don't hope they will *somehow* manage to make a worthy Fallout 3 game.

Again: hope, and expectation.

So, on one hand we have a direct quote, on the other hand we have your unsupported theory inviting to disregard the direct quote and continue to hope.... And you have a problem with *my* faulty logic?

Yes. Because you look too far into this. Although it *is* probable that Liam Neeson fits the role pretty well (indeed suggesting a 40-something Qui-gon-like father), it's not as if they actually wrote the role for him.

Only in response to silly points like "he is an important character in the game because the manual says so!"

Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you had the ability to read in context. As that was a response to your claiming that he wasn't helping you throughout the game. Which, you know, that *does* prove.
Please try not to use silly twists on me, it's just annoying.

Guides me how? Can we have some facts here?

He suggests places to go next to, for instance.

No, he initiates a simple " Go to V15 nearby and get us a replacement chip" quest, which happened to lead to bigger and better things without ANY involvement from the Overseer. Then he may tell you that the mutants are a threat and you better deal with somehow too. That's all.[/quote
He told you 'The vault's going to die in 150 days, unless you prevent it.' Yes, that's pretty damned important, and that little introductory movie introduced the whole story.

Also, your addressing of the point makes it seem as if 'he sends you to vault 15' is the only thing he does and that that was my only point. Again: he features as a go-to-guy throughout the entire game, he introduces the main plot for the first half of the game, he does that again for the second half (even if you haven't encountered the mutants yet), he delivers arguably the most powerful plot twist in the game and ends the game.

Because you post bs, Sander, trying to prove your point. The idea that the shaman was the driving point is ridiculous.

No it isn't. He was there solely to drive you, and that he did.

 

[hicksman]

Having voice overs doesn't imply there can't be expansive dialogs. Even at its most expansive, the dialog he'd have to read is far smaller than a movie's. Besides, nowhere does it say that Liam Neeson will voice over EVERY line of his limited and inconsequential dialog. It could be like BG where they only speak the first line.

Also, who's to say that the character is going to be a quest giver? Maybe he's the fucking narrator telling the story as the hero's father. Maybe he's your nemesis, maybe he's a party member, maybe he only appears in flashbacks to progress the plot? All it says is that he's the father and he's important.

By the way, i love that you asked for proof after you've written a slew of posts in this thread of wild fantasies based on two sentences in a press release.

 

[Seboss]

Because you post bs, Sander, trying to prove your point. The idea that the shaman was the driving point is ridiculous.

No it isn't. He was there solely to drive you, and that he did.

Well, he certainly gave me the urge to put as much distance as possible between my character and that silly tribal village.

 

[dagorkan]

Because you post bs, Sander, trying to prove your point. The idea that the shaman was the driving point is ridiculous.

No it isn't. He was there solely to drive you, and that he did.

He is one of the 'drivers' yes. Does that mean he is the main or a major driving force behind the plot? No it doesn't because there are lots of other 'drivers', and looking at the entire game his importance is minor.

Which, remember, is the issue... Beth wants to make Liam Neeson the whole plot, since his character and voicing will somehow permeate the whole game (at least that's what their PR machine says), like the game is being built around the concept of that one character - the Overseer/Hakunin in Fallout1 are clearly not comparable.

Don't be so fucking retarded.

 

[Vault Dweller]

That's Beth's way of doing things. Had they decided not to use voice-overs, then there would have been a chance to have a game with expansive dialogues. Now that they announced Liam's, no way.

Richard Dean Anderson and Ron Perlman were not as famous in 1997 as they are today, but they were not underrated either. However, hiring them for voice acting on Fallout did not prevent it to have expansive dialogues.

Bethesda, circa 2007, and Interplay, circa 1997, are two very, very different things.

I know we have a precedent with Oblivion, but Bethesda still have the benefit of the doubt for now.

Why?

 

[Black]

And look who's trolling now :d

Wait, someone registers just to say that?

Now, now, you're reaching dangerous level of stupidity...
Stop- now.
If you think I'd register just to chat with you then your ego is far more bigger than your IQ

Besides:
me- Joined: 08 May 2007
your post- Wed May 09, 2007 9:45 pm
Conclusion? You're not very brigt, are you?

Anyway, I didn't feel like posting something that has already been said.
The first solid info about F3 we get is that we will have a father following us around and giving stupid advices (probably "I see you've been poisoned by radscorpion- you should take an antidote") and will be more of pain in the ass than anything else
Is this positive info? Don't think so.

No it isn't. He was there solely to drive you, and that he did.

How in the nine hells did Hakunin drive player in F2? By saying "get that GECK faster, dammit" ? Is that even advice? Did he tell you where to go? Or what to do?
Okay. wait a sec...
*looks at cinematics with Hakunin*
Nope, he doesn't
All he says is "hurry"

 

[Sander]

Now, now, you're reaching dangerous level of stupidity...
Stop- now.
If you think I'd register just to chat with you then your ego is far more bigger than your IQ

Besides:
me- Joined: 08 May 2007
your post- Wed May 09, 2007 9:45 pm
Conclusion? You're not very brigt, are you?

Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't know that remarks like this get taken seriously here. Hah!

Anyway, I didn't feel like posting something that has already been said.
The first solid info about F3 we get is that we will have a father following us around and giving stupid advices (probably "I see you've been poisoned by radscorpion- you should take an antidote") and will be more of pain in the ass than anything else
Is this positive info? Don't think so.

...
Right. That's what the press kit says.

How in the nine hells did Hakunin drive player in F2? By saying "get that GECK faster, dammit" ? Is that even advice? Did he tell you where to go? Or what to do?
Okay. wait a sec...
*looks at cinematics with Hakunin*
Nope, he doesn't
All he says is "hurry"

What, did I say help you? Did I say tell you where to go?
No, I said 'drive you'.

 

[Black]

Okay, define 'drive somebody' then...
Because, honestly, I don't think 'drive' = say 'hurry'

 

[Seboss]

I know we have a precedent with Oblivion, but Bethesda still have the benefit of the doubt for now.

Why?

Ah c'mon. You are looking for any occasion to pounce at Bethesda and you're perfectly free to do this.
Your arguments stand considering previous Bethesda production, but you are jumping to conclusions nonetheless.We just don't have enough material about the game itself to make any conclusion yet.

Your reasoning is the same that prevents ex cons to re-integrate society. You're more than a little biased here.