Preview SoU E3 preview at PC.IGN also

[Sabotai]

Harpers do not have "guilds." They are a semi-secret organization that is devoted to battling various evil organizations of Faerun. This, of course, is a gross over-simplification.

I remember in BG2, the Harpers did strive for balance, always trying to be neutral and trying to keep out of the spotlights.

Generally, people don't "choose" to join the Harpers - the Harpers choose them. At any rate, the Harpers typically observe a potential Harper for a long time, making sure that the person is fit to join

According to the previews in SoU you play an apprentice to a Harper Scout mentor. It's unclear if this Adventurer's School is the Harper organisation. This mentor probably has a different profession and is a Harper Scout in secret.

 

[EEVIAC]

Has there been some new design spec compliance that has been passed around to developers that I'm not aware of?

The BoS are allowing new recruits based on their success in tasks akin to "go down to the shops and fetch some milk."

The city of Neverwinter faces an unparalelled peril, a situation that is left to be remedied by a new recruit who, remarkably, survives an attack that eliminates all the tutors and pupils, except said adventurer, wash-rag, blatantly obvious bertrayer, and the romantic interest.

And now we have an adventurer's school. I cannot express the hopes I have for ToEE's vignettes.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Harpers do not have "guilds." They are a semi-secret organization that is devoted to battling various evil organizations of Faerun. This, of course, is a gross over-simplification.

Which honestly makes a Harper mentor an extremely odd choice when they're also claiming evil would be viable. Given what Spazmo has said about Harpers, I just wonder how they can justify you starting out in an Adventure's School being instructed by a Harper if you're evil. Well, not without some massive fudging going on with what Harpers are or fudging evil.

 

[Sammael]

I remember in BG2, the Harpers did strive for balance, always trying to be neutral and trying to keep out of the spotlights.

While balance was one of the Harpers' original goals, they have long since shifted towards good. Khelben "The Blackstaff" Arunsun has recently left the Harpers, forming a group called "Moonstars" which is more neutral in outlook.

 

[Spazmo]

While balance was one of the Harpers' original goals, they have long since shifted towards good. Khelben "The Blackstaff" Arunsun has recently left the Harpers, forming a group called "Moonstars" which is more neutral in outlook.

Shht! Tel'Teukiira is a big sekrat!

The real motive of the Harpers is to preserve culture and history. As such, they are allied with another group called the Heralds who, if memory serves (I don't think it does), maintain the history of the Realms. It just so happens that those who usually want to destroy things or places and thus the knowledge and such inside them are evil. Thus, the Harpers have generally become a good organisation. They also tend to look out for the little guy, which is why they fight the Zhents a lot.

Sammael, it's nice to see another person here at RPGCodex who knows their D&D and Forgotten Realms.

 

[Sammael]

Well, realmslore is one of the main reasons I chose FR over Greyhawk when deciding on which campaign setting to use for "vanilla fantasy" campaigns. I keep telling myself it's because I don't have the time to develop my own world, but, truth be told, I actually like most of the fluff.

 

[Rosh]

Irony again, FR and BioWare uses a lot of Greyhawk-specific spells from the Council of Eight. :D

Also, was anyone expecting anything else but utter crap from IGN?

 

[Ibbz]

Like the IGN preview It mentions the spitting statue thing. Is this the worst BIO can get in terms of evil? Why not make "destroy statue" an evil option, or pray to an evil deity, or sacrifice a random villager and defile the statue with the blood or ripped-out heart.

You actually can destroy just about anything in the game, just right click and select bash.

 

[Sabotai]

Like the IGN preview It mentions the spitting statue thing. Is this the worst BIO can get in terms of evil? Why not make "destroy statue" an evil option, or pray to an evil deity, or sacrifice a random villager and defile the statue with the blood or ripped-out heart.

You actually can destroy just about anything in the game, just right click and select bash.

Well yes, but will that be considered an evil option and trigger the curse? Probably not since it's not a dialogue option.

 

[Spazmo]

Irony again, FR and BioWare uses a lot of Greyhawk-specific spells from the Council of Eight.

Oh, dear, Rosh a dozen or so spells are the same--the setting are clearly identical! Never mind that the Realms has its own totally independent set of cultures, kingdoms, pantheons, organisations, etc. etc. etc. I know that at the core, both Greyhawk and FR are high fantasy, but if some people like some of the elements from the Realms, what's the problem with that?

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

I tend to agree with Rosh that there are some spells from Greyhawk that should remain only in Greyhawk, like the ones that Rosh mentioned. Spells created and named for powerful mages in Greyhawk should probably be confined to Greyhawk. They're part of Greyhawk's setting and should stay there.

The real problem with the overlap is that it makes both settings less unique and more generic. They might have their own people and kingdoms and townships, but I think there should be more preservation on making them unique from one another than blending them even though they're both high fantasy.

 

[Rosh]

I think the main problem is that a lot of Greyhawk's spells are in the main spell lists of the basic player's guide and the DM's guide. Like most half-ass developers, BioWhore didn't do any research and just decided to play "just toss stuff in". I haven't noticed (or remember) any of Bigby's Hand spells in any of the FR games so far. Aganazzar's spells fit into FR, but not anything from Mordenkainen or anything else from the Council/Cicle of Eight (Mordenkainen, Bigby, Tenser, Leomund, Rary, Otto, Drawmij, and Nystul, though there's a different set for the original ones, those were the ones put in officially, I believe). You can even find stuff from Dragon mentioning Mordenkainen's Disjunction used in FR's setting. Otiluke is also a Greyhawk native.

Like most rip-offs, FR ripped off Greyhawk for the most part and then fleshed out some esoteric changes. Many of the fans and later developers (BioWhore) forget the setting points as most of the morons just care about killing things as most D&D games are basically interchangable in settings.

 

[Sammael]

but not anything from Mordenkainen or anything else from the Council/Cicle of Eight

Why? All of the Council of Eight are accomplished Planewalkers, and there are mentions of Mordenkainen visiting Faerun on more than one occassion.

The problem you have with most Greyhawk-specific spells is that they are inherently generic in nature (Tenser's Floating Disc, anyone? Mordenkainen's Sword?), so it comes to reason that someone, at some point, would have developed an identical spell in FR.

Like most rip-offs, FR ripped off Greyhawk for the most part and then fleshed out some esoteric changes.

Interesting. And utterly false. The original FR may have borrowed elements from Greyhawk (just as much as Greyhawk borrowed from LotR, for example), but the Realms of today (after more than a hundred published sourcebooks) have almost nothing in common with Greyhawk.

as most D&D games are basically interchangable in settings.

Genericism is a problem, this much I agree with. But blame that on BioWare, not the setting itself.

 

[Rosh]

but not anything from Mordenkainen or anything else from the Council/Cicle of Eight

Why? All of the Council of Eight are accomplished Planewalkers, and there are mentions of Mordenkainen visiting Faerun on more than one occassion.

And while they're at it, just hand out spells around willy-nilly. I can understand some of a wizard's spells bleeding through his control on his home plane/sphere, but they would be increasingly protective of them elsewhere. Mages do not just hand out their spells. If they did manage to bleed through to another sphere, they would be a closely guarded treasure as it would be an edge over anyone else because the others would not have seen anything like it before.

The problem you have with most Greyhawk-specific spells is that they are inherently generic in nature (Tenser's Floating Disc, anyone? Mordenkainen's Sword?), so it comes to reason that someone, at some point, would have developed an identical spell in FR.

That's irrelevent when you're going to say it's Someone's Magic Spell. By name. Of course BioWare has no real creativity to use, so they will have to basically use whatever is possible, no matter the relevence of it.

Like most rip-offs, FR ripped off Greyhawk for the most part and then fleshed out some esoteric changes.

Interesting. And utterly false. The original FR may have borrowed elements from Greyhawk (just as much as Greyhawk borrowed from LotR, for example), but the Realms of today (after more than a hundred published sourcebooks) have almost nothing in common with Greyhawk.

What is truly funny is that at first you say what I posted is completely false, then go on to basically reiterate what I posted.

IRONY!

 

[Ibbz]

David Gaider - Design, Bioware corp. -

XP Storyline (Spoiler Warning!):

(ED NOTE: *******MASSIVE SPOILERS AHEAD*******)

Okay, fine. Since I'm tired of seeing these questions, I'll just explain it.

You don't know Drogan is a harper. You also know nothing about the artifacts that he's hiding. You're at Drogan's school (or home, rather... it's not really a school except that Drogan has several students) as his most senior student taking advantage of Drogan's many years of experience as an adventurer, though it's left indeterminate as to exactly how long you've been there. It's also left up to the PC in the course of the dialogues to establish the relationship he/she has with Drogan.

You don't find out that Drogan is a harper until after the events at the start of the module when another harper shows up to help. That's also when you find out about the artifacts, and yes... you have the option of keeping them for yourself, if you wish. These artifacts have never had their exact use figured out (only the fact that they have great power is known), so the harpers are more interested in keeping them out of the hands of this mysterious enemy than wondering what you might do with them.

I guess the people who wrote the article didn't want to go overboard on the spoilers by explaining all that, but there you go.

 

[Sabotai]

David Gaider - Design, Bioware corp. -
Okay, fine. Since I'm tired of seeing these questions, I'll just explain it.

So where is this from? A PM or post from BIOware boards?

You don't know Drogan is a harper.

Wouldn't this have been nice to find out during play, instead of reading it in almost all E3 previews?

You also know nothing about the artifacts that he's hiding.

Idem

You're at Drogan's school (or home, rather... it's not really a school except that Drogan has several students) as his most senior student taking advantage of Drogan's many years of experience as an adventurer

So it's a school but it's not??? Reminds me of the gnarly dude of doom, it's not a sequel but neither is it a prequel.... Also with regard to SoU.

though it's left indeterminate as to exactly how long you've been there

Why not tell the player this? Almost everything else, from the secret Harper status to the powerful hidden artifacts is already known.

It's also left up to the PC in the course of the dialogues to establish the relationship he/she has with Drogan.

Mmmh, as his most senior student, wouldn't you have some sort of relationship by now?

That's also when you find out about the artifacts, and yes... you have the option of keeping them for yourself, if you wish. These artifacts have never had their exact use figured out (only the fact that they have great power is known), so the harpers are more interested in keeping them out of the hands of this mysterious enemy than wondering what you might do with them.

I bet these artifacts contain the souls of ancient heroes. You can put them in a sword so the sword becomes imbued with the power of the long dead heroes.

 

[Rosh]

Wow, with spoiling so much of the story, what do they have left in store for the players?

Oh, yeah...more mindless gameplay and some more things for the modmakers to copy and overuse.

 

[Spazmo]

Wow, with spoiling so much of the story, what do they have left in store for the players?

Don't you worry, there's a big 'ol plot twist ahead! Look at this Drogan chap. Now inverse the o and the a in his name. You thought he was a secret Harper, but it gets worse! I bet halflings with daggers will have a ball knocking the bugger over.

And coming back to the Harper Scout prestige class, it would seem that BioWare expects all PCs who want to be Harpers to take the HS class. Never mind that there are specially designed prestige classes for Harper Mages and Priests, they're going to force every Harper wannabe to play a Rogue-ish class!

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

The problem you have with most Greyhawk-specific spells is that they are inherently generic in nature (Tenser's Floating Disc, anyone? Mordenkainen's Sword?), so it comes to reason that someone, at some point, would have developed an identical spell in FR.

Almost certainly there might be similar ones, but why not something like Bob's Cleaver of Justice instead of Mordy's Sword? Or Jack's Floating Carry All instead of the disc? They might have similar spells, even derived from the same magical principles, but they'd still be different because different people developed them. As such, different people could have different motives in design of the magical force that does both.

For example, maybe Tenser developed his floating carry utility spell in to a disc because a circle is a perfect mathematical stucture. Maybe the guy in Forgotten Realms would have based his on shipping containers or freight pallets. As such, it'd be squarish and perhaps have sides. Depending on the creator's experiences in the setting, it might be a disc like Tenser's, but most likely not.

 

[Spazmo]

It's really a question of there being one PHB with a smattering of Greyhawk spells in it. Players started using those spells and got used to it. Changing it now might be troublesome. Still, in my campaigns, I don't allow any exterior spells aside from the ones in the PHB, and those have the name removes.

 

[Ibbz]

So where is this from? A PM or post from BIOware boards?

Bioware Boards.

Wouldn't this have been nice to find out during play, instead of reading it in almost all E3 previews?

I've only seen this in one preview which is the ign one. Its not Bioware's fault that the author of the article failed to mention there was spoilers contained in the preview. {Or any other preview that contained the same information}

Why not tell the player this? Almost everything else, from the secret Harper status to the powerful hidden artifacts is already known.

Because in the game IT IS LEFT INDETERMINATE.

Mmmh, as his most senior student, wouldn't you have some sort of relationship by now?

Obviously - But Bioware is letting you decide WHAT KIND OF RELATIONSHIP you have with him now.

 

[Sabotai]

Wouldn't this have been nice to find out during play, instead of reading it in almost all E3 previews?

I've only seen this in one preview which is the ign one. Its not Bioware's fault that the author of the article failed to mention there was spoilers contained in the preview. {Or any other preview that contained the same information}

I read two previews, IGN's and Electric Playground's. Both mentioned the Harper Scout mentor and the spit-on-statue-evil option.

though it's left indeterminate as to exactly how long you've been there

Why not tell the player this? Almost everything else, from the secret Harper status to the powerful hidden artifacts is already known.

Because in the game IT IS LEFT INDETERMINATE.

Don't you think this is kind of silly? You've been a student with your favorite mentor and are now his most senior student, but you don't know how long you've been there.

Mmmh, as his most senior student, wouldn't you have some sort of relationship by now?

Obviously - But Bioware is letting you decide WHAT KIND OF RELATIONSHIP you have with him now.

Yes, by asking a couple of questions. Why not begin the game when starting at the school as a complete newbie. Then, experience a couple of important situations with your teacher (say 5 in a two year period). BIoware can give some nice background information and based on your behaviour your relationship with your mentor is determined. Much more plausible and immersive than a couple of question IMHO. It also answer the unknown study period question.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

Yes, by asking a couple of questions. Why not begin the game when starting at the school as a complete newbie. Then, experience a couple of important situations with your teacher (say 5 in a two year period). BIoware can give some nice background information and based on your behaviour your relationship with your mentor is determined. Much more plausible and immersive than a couple of question IMHO. It also answer the unknown study period question.

I have to agree. That'd be the smarter way to do it. That way, it'd allow the player to actually come up with how everything with the mentor is handled. It's rather cheesy to just have the story start where you already have this great relationship with the guy, but don't know anything beyond that. It's even more silly if you can be chaotic evil from the start as well.

 

[Spazmo]

"Gee, Drogan, you've been such a great friend to me. You're almost a father to me. Before I go spit on statues, I have to thank you.
"Whoops, did I just stab you in the face twenty times? Oh, wait, I'm chaotic evil. Sorry."