-
Welcome to rpgcodex.net, a site dedicated to discussing computer based role-playing games in a free and open fashion. We're less strict than other forums, but please refer to the rules.
"This message is awaiting moderator approval": All new users must pass through our moderation queue before they will be able to post normally. Until your account has "passed" your posts will only be visible to yourself (and moderators) until they are approved. Give us a week to get around to approving / deleting / ignoring your mundane opinion on crap before hassling us about it. Once you have passed the moderation period (think of it as a test), you will be able to post normally, just like all the other retards.
Saint's Neverwinter Nights review
- Thread starter Peacedog
- Start date
Peacedog
Novice
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2002
- Messages
- 69
I've read the review (back then). I skimmed it now, but couldn't tell from my skimming. My guess is yes, he did (I might be making this up, but doesn't RPGCodex have some sort of "review policy" along those lines?). Wanted to find the actual in review confrimation if possible.
Diogo Ribeiro
Erudite
Once you finish the OC, you are finished with the game. I can't see how someone might think otherwise. The game is the OC; mods are not part of the game, and they don't add replayability to the game. Not because they're bad or anything, but because they are something else, totally outside the OC, and totally outside the main game.
I guess this would have more to do with individual presuppositions. If you consider "the game" to be comprised only of the OC, then I see your point. But this seems a bit inaccurate in the same way as quantifying the "game" of D&D as limited to a TSR or WOTC module. Heck, I haven't played an official module in decades but still consider myself to be a D&D "gamer."
One of the oddest things about any conversation involving NWN is how many different critters it seems to be for different people - including Bioware. At various times, Bioware hyped the toolkit above the DM interface and the OC or, alternatively, the OC and the DM interface together over the toolkit or, sometimes, the OC above everything else or, often, the radiant trinity as some manner of digital entertainment godhead. This was particularly amusing wrt the Mac version, since it ended up shipping without the promised toolkit: Bioware initially praised the toolkit as engendering limitless adventure, then, when the Mac toolkit was canned, basically said, "Well, the game itself is the OC and everything else is just optional icing."
I appreciate the fact that Saint limited himself to the OC (which I think truly truly sucked - for the record, since I know everyone was downright salivating for my perspective). I just wanted to express amusement on the fact that we continue to be confused by the positively byzantine self-identification and self-justification of Bioware's marketing ocelots.
I appreciate the fact that Saint limited himself to the OC (which I think truly truly sucked - for the record, since I know everyone was downright salivating for my perspective). I just wanted to express amusement on the fact that we continue to be confused by the positively byzantine self-identification and self-justification of Bioware's marketing ocelots.
Transcendent One
Liturgist
I always do find it funny when I read a NWN review that says the OC sucks, but the game doesn't because some fanmade mod X is so incredibly uber.
Or when people praise Bioware for NWN and praise NWN for fanmade mods.
It's rather funny.
Or when people praise Bioware for NWN and praise NWN for fanmade mods.
It's rather funny.
Why? I disliked the NWN OC immensely. But I enjoy NWN as an online D&D emulator. There's no contradiction or irony there.
Per my above context, I love D&D even though the campaigns I play are not generated by WOTC. Is this too, ironic?
In both cases, I am enjoying an experience enabled by the engine/content; be it reams of P&P rules or the PC extrapolation thereof. It's an accurate statement, regardless of your opinion of how it translates to your palate.
Per my above context, I love D&D even though the campaigns I play are not generated by WOTC. Is this too, ironic?
In both cases, I am enjoying an experience enabled by the engine/content; be it reams of P&P rules or the PC extrapolation thereof. It's an accurate statement, regardless of your opinion of how it translates to your palate.
Diogo Ribeiro
Erudite
Taoreich said:
Yes i see your point. It certainly is open to subjectiveness. I consider D&D the game itself, and official modules part of the game. Fan-made content, to me, is outside the game. Same with NWN or other games which use mods. You look at NWN, and the game itself is just the OC. Official modules are part of the entire experience (though the OC is the game itself). But fanmade modules are no longer part of the game, they're a separate thing using the engine to run (in this case, D&D itself could be considered the "engine", and the official content the "game"). To me its an outside aspect because non-official content isn't a part of the game. Yes, it can integrate with the original game, and we certainly replay the game but not for its original content anymore, but for the added one.
Spazmo
Erudite
We review what you get out of the box. In Saint's opinion--and we agree with him--you didn't get much out of the box with Neverwinter Nights.
Vault Dweller
Commissar, Red Star Studio
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2003
- Messages
- 28,038
Who made you the judge?! :shock:Volourn said:Taoreich wins again.
My 2 cents: NWN as "an online DnD emulator" is a very generic concept, it's something that's very hard to measure and rate as the end product depends on a particular module, players, etc. Each experience is unique and doesn't represent the product, a consistent experience would though. So out of 100 random modules played with random players (that was the idea), how would you rate your NWN experience?
Volourn
Pretty Princess
- Joined
- Mar 10, 2003
- Messages
- 24,932
Huh? In every single game one plays everyone has an unique experience. Tell me one game where it was hated or love uniformly or the same parts were ahted or loved equally? Not once.
SP's review was fine as is as he made it pretty clear that he was judging the OC alone. That said, to judge NWN fully fairly one should try to judge the entire packaage that one pays for which includes the toolsets. Why do you think NWN was the most expensive PC game ever - at least for me it was. It sure;y wasn't that the OC was worth $90 alone.
As for who made mad eme judge? Obviously; i did. Just like you made yourself judge to judge whether or not I should be judge. Heh. :D
SP's review was fine as is as he made it pretty clear that he was judging the OC alone. That said, to judge NWN fully fairly one should try to judge the entire packaage that one pays for which includes the toolsets. Why do you think NWN was the most expensive PC game ever - at least for me it was. It sure;y wasn't that the OC was worth $90 alone.
As for who made mad eme judge? Obviously; i did. Just like you made yourself judge to judge whether or not I should be judge. Heh. :D
Role-Player- I agree with you, for the most part. The grey area begins when you evaluate based on the intent of the developers. Listening to Derek French, et al, you could get the impression that the engine was in fact the intended result, in which case the user mods are on par with any user module for any game system. On the other hand, Tom Ohle and his ilk were hell bent on selling the OC as an inherent piece of the pie, which precludes user mods from having similar value. Which brings us back to the presuppositions of the reviewer/user/ Chicken/Egg.
Spazmo- Who is "we?" The staff at RPG Codex? The Borg collective? Gromnir?
VD- True, which is why context is so important to outlining just what exactly the relationship is between the specific attributes and suggested benchmarks from the reviewer's perspective
Spazmo- Who is "we?" The staff at RPG Codex? The Borg collective? Gromnir?
VD- True, which is why context is so important to outlining just what exactly the relationship is between the specific attributes and suggested benchmarks from the reviewer's perspective
Spazmo
Erudite
Taoreich said:
Well, now, really, there's no sense going about calling each other names. I mean, shit, I'm not going to start callling you ShadowPaladin, am I? No, no I'm not. Think a little before you bandy around a dirty word like "Gromnir" next time, please.
And yeah, the staff.
Diogo Ribeiro
Erudite
Volourn said:
ET for the Atari 2600. Custer's Revenge for the Atari 2600. May not be universally disliked, but damn do they come close.
Taoreich said:
Yes yes, quite the truth.
Spazmo said:
:shock: *makes cross with fingers* Back to your unholy pit, demon!! Do not spout such eeeeebil names here!
Peacedog said:I didn't finish the NN OC. I was in the last part, and just got sick of it. I digress.
I got 2/3s of the way through Act 3, and I was running on fumes then. After getting the second world stone, and having no idea where to go for the third.. I just figured FUCK YOUR WORLD STONE! I GOT TWO OF THE FOUR! MY JOB IS DONE!
Otaku_Hanzo
Erudite
Saint_Proverbius said:
You're a better man than I am, Gungha-Din. I got like two or three quests into Act 2 and was suddenly hit with the "Oh my god! I did this quest in the last act with different names!" conundrum over and over. Just couldn't stomach it any more and went on to try user modules. Much better experience there, let me tell you. Well, with the exception of about 75% of the modules out there, that is. Just more of the same. There are some good ones though. For sure.
Totally.
Peacedog
Novice
- Joined
- Dec 9, 2002
- Messages
- 69
And here I thought the OC was devoid of roleplaying.
I'm curious, though. Does it bother you at all that you did a review without finishing the game? Playing that far into it is playing a pretty long time in all likelyhood. Sometimes I think the criticism about reviewers not finishing games should be more along the lines of "did the reviewer spend enough time with it?"
Diogo Ribeiro
Erudite
I actually finished the main OC four or five times, just so i wouldn't call myself a quitter, and to see if there was ever more to the game. Obviously there wasn't 
As an Amazon Associate, rpgcodex.net earns from qualifying purchases.